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06-30-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 41
Post ID: 19588
Reply to: 19587
S2 Operating Frequencies?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, understood, at least somewhat. Are you suggesting that the S2 operates at the frequencies between 1000hz and 3.6khz? I am not insisting upon using the driver at the frequencies that I was initially suggesting; far from it, actually, as these were simply a hypothetical starting point with the purpose of eliciting the sort of information that you are so ably providing. I am not insisting on anything aside from excellent (at least, from my perception) results from a 5-way, largely spherical horn configuration, since it is this topology that has challenged my long-held cynicism about the capabilities of "high-end" audio. That this has already turned out to be so much more involved than I had at first thought is far from disappointing, as a matter of fact.

That YL driver looks interesting; I will check it out insofar as is possible..

Yes, the issue of amplification is premature, to say the least, but it resulted from a conversation that Jeffery and I had been having. It had always been my intention to obtain 5 pairs of commercial SETs (to me, it has always been the loudspeaker that has been the most inherently disappointing element in the audio chain, although each element has its bugbears) such as Lamm ML2s or Shindo Labs Lafons to power the drivers, but Jeffrey seems to favor the custom route, and you seem to have arrived at superior results through your own efforts. Any route other than this appears to be the very Pandora's box that might result in the "years of refinements" that so may on this thread have cautioned against, but that in itself does not deter me. Ultimately though, however long this takes and however costly it might be, I want to do this only once, wish to learn as much as possible in so doing, and wish to be content with the results for the rest of my life - this is how invested I am in this process.

de Charlus
06-30-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,960
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 19589
Reply to: 19588
It is not what important.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 de charlus wrote:
Ok, understood, at least somewhat. Are you suggesting that the S2 operates at the frequencies between 1000hz and 3.6khz? I am not insisting upon using the driver at the frequencies that I was initially suggesting; far from it, actually, as these were simply a hypothetical starting point with the purpose of eliciting the sort of information that you are so ably providing. I am not insisting on anything aside from excellent (at least, from my perception) results from a 5-way, largely spherical horn configuration, since it is this topology that has challenged my long-held cynicism about the capabilities of "high-end" audio. That this has already turned out to be so much more involved than I had at first thought is far from disappointing, as a matter of fact.
de Charlus, I think you have a slightly wrong perception of this conversation. I do not use S2 driver at 3.6khz but I use two 2 drivers below and after secondary resonance (1200hz) as I feel that correction of drivers by LC electrical resonators damages the drivers sound. However, I do not recommend using any driver in any range. If you pay attention during reading my site I very seldom recommend anything specific but instead I advocate a methodology to find your own answers. You looking for results but I do see audio as cookie cuter results but rather as a possess. You feel that 5-way, largely spherical horn configuration is very effective? I do not disagree. There are many passes to take and you might use any drivers you wish. Take a driver, load into channels and play with it. Slide the crossovers up and down, change slope and types, change horn loading and driver loading. Soon or later you will end up with the configuration you feel correspond to your level of objectives. If you wish to use the drivers that I know I might assist to a degree but if they are the drivers that I never used then whatever I say or think is worthless. It is however is not about the selection of drivers or their bandwidth but rather to understand what you want from a particular channel. Read the last sentence again – it was very important.  It is not so simple right the way to grasp what your objectives and expectations are. You might do it but generally it takes time, at least in my case. It would be nice if you fry to meet Jeffery and he will demonstrate to you a performance of a few drivers in equitable configuration. I do not know if he offers such a service. Without it I would get Upperbass and MF and do not do anything else unit I develop an acquired taste in the way how the drivers perform.
 de charlus wrote:
Yes, the issue of amplification is premature, to say the least, but it resulted from a conversation that Jeffery and I had been having. It had always been my intention to obtain 5 pairs of commercial SETs (to me, it has always been the loudspeaker that has been the most inherently disappointing element in the audio chain, although each element has its bugbears) such as Lamm ML2s or Shindo Labs Lafons to power the drivers, but Jeffrey seems to favor the custom route, and you seem to have arrived at superior results through your own efforts. Any route other than this appears to be the very Pandora's box that might result in the "years of refinements" that so may on this thread have cautioned against, but that in itself does not deter me. Ultimately though, however long this takes and however costly it might be, I want to do this only once, sh to learn as much as possible in so doing, and wish to be content with the results for the rest of my life - this is how invested I am in this process.

A custom route is fine but do you know what you want?  Tell me: do you want to driver your MF channels with AD1, RE604, or PX25 tubes? How you would like to load them? How would you implement the filter in the amps if you do not know what filters they would be? How you preference of the amplification would change in context of associated channels?  How much power would you need?  Can you drive S2 and ALE drivers from the same amp? I can ask you another 100 questions that would impact the design chooses for your DSET but neither you or Jeffery or anybody else for that matter know the answers. It is not about the selection of brand or DIY vs. premade amp but rather about tailoring your amps to the need of your acoustic system, non existing acoustic system I have to say.

One more thing, If you deal with Jeffery then you can explore one more direction. Jeffery is close associated with WE people and you might explore their drivers. Not all WE driver are interesting but some of them are. You might look at Western Electric 594 drivers with better concentric phasing plug or the contemporary Japanese GIP equivalents. I did not see or heard of any worthy or serious installation with WE drivers but it does not mean that it might not be made. The people who experiment with WE are no different than the people who excrement with ALE/GOTO/YL drivers – a lot of snobbism and pretentiousness but not a lot of actual results. Still, if you can stomach to deal with them then you can fish something in the murky water of contemporary proper WE application.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 43
Post ID: 19591
Reply to: 19589
Understood
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, whether intentionally or otherwise, "murky waters" is a beautiful metaphor for the Western Electric route, in my experience; that said, just because something does not exist, does not mean that I might not be made so with a less hidebound approach. Alas, I am too young to have that whole "Mirrorphonics nostalgia" coloring my taste in sound reproduction - still, this is not to say that it cannot be investigated.

As for the amplification issue, I take your point; at this stage too many variables have yet to be fixed to render such discussion productive.

Have you, or anyone else on this site, had experience with such things as "double throat adapters"? Goto offer such to marry with their SG146 bass drivers, and if there are no inherent difficulties arising from such a configuration, it would be nice if the bass horns in this installation were not positively gargantuan.

Regards

de Charlus
07-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,960
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 19592
Reply to: 19591
It takes time.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
Alas, I am too young to have that whole "Mirrorphonics nostalgia" coloring my taste in sound reproduction - still, this is not to say that it cannot be investigated.

Actually the "Mirrorphonics nostalgia" that some people squirt all over themselves is not necessary an attribute of western eclectic drivers. Some of WE drivers, not all of them but some, do have exceptional dynamics and very interesting tonal character, no different from RCA, Vitavox and other vintage drivers. If they properly implemented it might be very worthy direction to do. Yes, it is given that most of people who deal with WE are just brainlessly mimic inferior WE solutions but it not suppose to be this way.
 de charlus wrote:
As for the amplification issue, I take your point; at this stage too many variables have yet to be fixed to render such discussion productive.
Well, Charlus, I took interests in your project as I find it very interesting (for myself) to think how I would do it, knowing what I do know now, if I did it from scratch. Of cause my experience might be completely neglected. Still, in expression of my experience I do something that I much appreciate about myself - I provide my reasoning. Use or do not use my reasons is irrelevant to me but I feel that it is better to be informed about reasons, then you can evaluate yourself the reasons and chose to yourself whatever course of actions you wish.
 de charlus wrote:
Have you, or anyone else on this site, had experience with such things as "double throat adapters"? Goto offer such to marry with their SG146 bass drivers, and if there are no inherent difficulties arising from such a configuration, it would be nice if the bass horns in this installation were not positively gargantuan.

Yes, double throat adapters are common. Pretty much any of older compression drivers companies did them. I would obviously stays away from them for MF and HF application but for LF then could minimize the horn length. Feel free to discard me but for fifth or so time I do advise you do not think and stay away from LF projects at this point. I can provide you with multiple reasons why it might be a topologically faulty solution; in fact I have it already at many locations at my site. The biggest reason however is different. The cost, demands and complexity of let say 30Hz horn implementation will be easy 60-70% of your whole project. It is not to mention that whatever you do with30Hz horn is non-reversible. I am sure that Jeffery would love to play with this opportunity but in my view the thing need to be made not because it is possible but because it is necessary. No one knows what is   necessary in your case. Complete Upperbass and MF channels, get some kind of chip boom box for LF, get accustom with Sound and then play with your nuclear tweeter.  Then, after the system is operational and installed into your house, move up and down, integrated with room décor and so on, than you will see what space you have for LF horn if you decide to build it. No one say that you do not need to get your LF horn if you want. All that I say that you might consider to compartmentalize your project by multiple deliverable stages. I suggest that as you will be progressing across those stages your expectations and your references will be altered.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 45
Post ID: 19593
Reply to: 19592
Thanks
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

Please don't think that I undervalue your advice; as a matter of fact, I have gleaned more knowledge from tooling around this site generally, and from your contributions specifically, that I've been able to amass through all other sources combined. Your reasoning has in fact been invaluable, especially to one such as myself who has only very recently taken an interest in this tier of audio, a tier very much marginalized by those in whose interest it is to be pushing the latest tech at all times. After all, if the notion that the audio "magic beans" are held not, as most believe, in the hands of a couple of dozen uniquely gifted oligarchs, but are instead available to any and all who would sufficiently inform themselves, the streets would soon run red with the blood of slain Sacred Cows, their death throes just as tuneless as their life's work!

Once again, thank you; it is obviously most necessary to approach the conception, construction etc of horns with a set methodology, and without your assistance I would have had no idea what this would have been. Admittedly, when I commenced with all this I was most excited that I'd heard two or three speakers which, if their virtues could have been combined, would have been - to my ears - audio perfection, and naively thought that this could be as simple an undertaking as employing their drivers and (loosely) topologies in a single configuration, but I now know better; horns are far subtler beasts...

de Charlus
07-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,960
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 19594
Reply to: 19593
The cost?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Charlus, it is not about an expression of gratitude, trust me, I am very indifferent neither to criticism or appreciation. Ironically what you are trying to do is in a way an organic holding a touch of a few audio ideas that I happened to advocate as they turned out to be successful in my case. I naturally would be pleases if large knowledge base that was formed by my public dairies would  be beneficial. I learned from others and I feel that “data” have to be passed over. I hope what you build whatever you build you will publicize your experience; this is the way how “knowledge” is being preserved. If you build what you intend to do then invite as you will be done. I would not mind to stop by for some listening. I estimate that if you eventually go for your bass horn project then to build, calibrate and setup the whole system would take for you 1.5-2 years. I do think that if you go for serious result then your bass horn will not be the last channel. Most likely you will eventually get a moderate Midbass horn of let sat 45Hz and then a dedicated channel for lower octave. The reason I am sing it now is because the high power amplification that your ULF might require need to be equated into your amplification planning.
 
If you do not go for crazy expensive bass compression drivers then I think your project would not be too expensive. I would estimate somewhere around $40K. I know it sounds like a lot of money but nowadays it is a cost of an industry promoted single-driver monitors that some kind of big shot audio reviewer marked as “recommended components”. I wonder what other would estimate the cost of the project might be? For sure you might make it as expensive as you wish by wiring everything with luxury cables, using Wehrmacht tubes for amplification, utilising medieval-made replica of “The Hunt of the Unicorn” tapestries for room sound treatment or employing wet-pay on your turntable by squirting Hennessy Beaute du Siecle on the records.  BTW, if you do then I probably stop by earlier to help you to setup the thing…

:-) Romy The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 47
Post ID: 19610
Reply to: 19594
Cost projection
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

I merely thought that you felt I was riding roughshod over your advice, when it was in fact a degree of naivety requiring extensive clarification that may have made it appear thus. Regardless of your indifference to praise and/or criticism, I'd hate to be perceived as ill-mannered and unappreciative. Your efforts, as well as those of others, in expounding upon my little project have been unbelievably useful; sure, I could have put myself fully into the hands of Jeffrey Jackson - and as far as I've been able to determine, those would indeed be safe and informative hands - but forewarned is forearmed, and in any case, the learning process is one of the chief attractions of going this route. As for the passing on of knowledge, bravo; this is seemingly a rarefied little field, and were it not for the transmission of knowledge thus, it might scarcely be transmitted at all. Yes, having considered the appropriate methodology, plus the obtaining of materials and custom fabrication, I do see this being a project lasting perhaps a year or two; during all key points in the process I will upload pics and commentary as appears fit.

As for expense, I had not anticipated it being nearly as reasonable as $40k; that, after all, is roughly the price of that Silbatone, single-driver monstrosity to which you allude. I will be needing to build an entire system from scratch, from naked Polynesian virgins to rotate my 1500lb, depleted uranium platter - and let us not forget that they will have to be worked in shifts - to 10 SETs (most likely Jeffrey's own, with some mods) phonostage (probably a used Boulder 2008 unless Jeffrey wows me with one of his) to cables (high-purity silver, but not Kondo or anything so glamorous) to custom crossovers, power refinement (perhaps a battery pack a la Definitive Audio) to digital (a CEC TLOX, but with what DAC?), computer audio and FM, with all the supports, interconnects and knick-knacks that pad the pockets of our friendly local audio dealers. I think that I'd be lucky to get any change out of $150k, altogether, although the fact that this will be more a gradual, two-year drain than an avalanche in my bank account will make things easier to bear, as will the fact that I already have a small system to listen to whilst this work takes place. Also, while I'm full of enthusiasm for the speaker project, I'm less enthused about venturing once more into the domain of consumer audio for all the other things that are required; my last experiences proved that it was seldom possible to compare apples to pears - let alone apples to apples - in Toronto, where we are not exactly overburdened with quality audio outfits. For example, as far as turntables go, I'd like to audition that high-mass Audio Tekne one - fat chance of that up here - the Kondo Ginga with 12" SMEV - equally impossible - and, going the other route, something like the Bergmann Sleipner, something that sounded as good as it had any right to in a friend's system in New York. As far as I've been able to ascertain, the only "quality" turntable that may be auditioned and purchased in Ontario is the Basis Inspiration, not a design that fills me with confidence. If one doesn't live in New York, London, or any of the other truly "major" cities, such things can be as unattainable as those proverbial hen's teeth.

Regards

de Charlus
07-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,960
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 19614
Reply to: 19610
$150k???
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hm, I do not think that it all might be as expensive. If I rebuild Macondo now from scratch then it will be probably around $10K-$12K. The cost of midbass horn will be we around $15K and the 12ch DSET would be around $18K. So the number of $40K does sound reasonable to me. Saying that I do not include into the calculation the cost of exotic drivers but only the construction of horns, harnesses, frames, logistics, regular drivers and etc.
I excluded also the whole “new system” that you appears look forward to get. This is completely up to you and this is very different subject.
Two advise (advise must have a dam plural form!!!) that you might find worthy.

If you like so much your ALE MF driver then you might consider GOTO as well as they are “close”. In your case it might be convenient as your Jeffery build a setup to a guy from Ohio who is (or at least was) USA GOTO rep.  You might get options to experiment with them before lay a lot of cash and if I am not mistaken Jeffery did have good GOTO exposure.

If you do willing to get those bass ALE drivers that would cost dozen of thousand dollars then do pursue them in North America. They are sold with good 60% mark-up and no one will offer you any service for this mark-up. Get ticket to Japan and gat your ALEs in there. If you were be accompanied by a Japanese industry person then you might get then for Japanese “street price” that would be good 75% off from the USA retail. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 49
Post ID: 19620
Reply to: 19614
Thanks
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks Romy,

I particularly appreciate the advice on the Goto issue, although a sojourn in Japan would be delightful too, come to think of it; in my experience there's no better place for culinary and audio tourism combined. "Local" support in the case of technical issues is not to be undervalued either. It doesn't sound as if the supports, harnesses etc to which you allude will be terribly costly via Jeffrey, so maybe I am overestimating things rather. That said, I haven't seen a contemporary price for the CEC TLOX, and this, I imagine, will be substantial; I also have no idea what DACS I should even audition, since it has been so long since I've had a need to. People have recommended DCS, Orpheus, Weiss, Audio Aero; probably something that I should ask in the digital forum at any rate. It's a bit of a grey area for me really, since I don't actively want to seek out second-rate sound when putting so much effort into the rest of the system, yet no more than 25% of my listening is via CD; that said, I do want to investigate "high-res" computer audio, and that too will require quality processing, so perhaps pennies are not to be pinched here. Oh, since writing yesterday I came across a new (at least to me) place in Toronto where I can audition the Kondo Ginga, which may go some way towards solving my problem, the need for a high-quality, high-mass record-spinner with local support, something which I have overlooked at my peril in the past. Now I only have to hope that I like it.

Do you really think that the 12 channel DSET would be that affordable? If so, I'm delighted, since i had reckoned on at least thrice that sum. There is, of course, the preamp and phonostage to consider too; I was thinking of a preamp from Jeffrey for synergistic purposes, and the aforementioned Boulder. Even if one does bank on $150k for the lot and is then presently surprised, one must remember that this is less than a pair of Magico Q7s - this can surely be a batshit crazy pursuit, can it not/

de Charlus
07-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 50
Post ID: 19685
Reply to: 19536
ALE 45Super
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
In short, the driver units I allude to above are the best I have heard within their frequency ranges

De Charlus, would you please share how does ALE 45Super sound? I’m interested in several aspects: Does it change its ability to express the musical messages when listened at low volume in comparison to high level listening? Does it have the ability to play soft and crispy sounds at the same time without compromising any of them? Does it have enough neutrality in context of the musical tempo of different recordings or everything sounds too fast with explosively released energy?  Does it have the ability to isolate the parasitic sounds of some recordings, not allowing them to pollute the timbre and shape of the instruments? Does it have thickness in its upper midrange tone? Does it sound faster and more charged/energetic at the upper part of the upper mids compared to the bottom of its working range? Does it allow you to hear the contrast between different recordings or there is characteristic similarity between them? Did you feel any lack HFs or “air” in its sound when its complementary HF channel is covered with something (for example your hand) and does not contribute to the overall sound of the acoustic system? And so on and so on…


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
07-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 51
Post ID: 19689
Reply to: 19685
Ale 45 Super
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear Harlanov,

For me the most impressive thing about this driver was its ability to simultaneously render soft/crisp sounds of similar frequencies distinctly, without muddling or other compromise. Additionally, at low volumes musical detail was not subsumed in murk to any degree, as seemingly occurs in the majority of cases. Tempo seemed consistent with my expectations of the best representations of given recordings that I've heard; there was certainly no sense of excessive tempo, as occurs in many "high resolution" speakers these days. There was no noticeable thickness in upper HF; lower HF, mid-HF and upper-HF were more or less of a piece, so no, there was no sense of excessive energy at the upper part of the upper mids in relation to other parts of the frequency range. Since i do not yet own these drivers I am unable to experiment with covering the complementary HF channel. As far as I was able to determine, the driver imparted little discernible character of its own across the recordings that I was able to listen to on it, giving a very neutral presentation indeed. One thing perhaps needs to be borne in mind though; I heard these drivers in a custom horn arrangement made by Audio Tekne, the superstructure and horns being formed from a carbon compound - as a caveat, I would suggest that perhaps some of the neutrality could have been contributed by this, "taming" the driver somewhat. I have no reason to suppose that this driver is not as good as it seemed to be, but it seems to be worth considering the whole package. Could you kindly elaborate upon what you mean by "parasitic sounds", as I am not familiar with this epithet.

de Charlus
07-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 52
Post ID: 19690
Reply to: 19689
"Parasitic sounds" and human perception
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
Could you kindly elaborate upon what you mean by "parasitic sounds", as I am not familiar with this epithet.

By "parasitic sounds" I mean all sounds which are contained in the signal that are not part of the performed music. Different people call them with different names – for example "alien sounds". These are all kind of audio cracks when playing dirty LPs, all kind of digital front end distortions, distorted recordings, distorting amplifiers and speaker drivers, distortion due to bad electricity and many more. All those non-musically related sounds are part of the signal flowing through the voice coils of the drivers and they cannot be analyzed as a separate "parts". However this is only true if we are analyzing the electrical signal itself. Right in the moment when the signal is converted into acoustic waves, we have completely different situation. Now these parasitic sounds can be perceived by the brain as completely separate sounds that do not pollute the voice of the instruments. They exist with the music, but in no way interfere with the music. I made an illustration to show how the same signal (distorted audio signal in electrical domain) can be perceived when reproduced by drivers of different quality:

distortion perception.JPG

Fig.1 visualizes what’s going on when you play good music having bad audio quality via very bad speaker driver. The bad sounds are perceived as a part of the violin and you cannot hear the voice of the violin any more – it is heavily polluted with dirt.
Fig.3 represents what happens when you play the same music with the same quality of the electrical signal, but this time reproduced by a very high quality driver. You see – the bad sounds are there, but they do not affect the timbre of the instrument, nor affect the value of the musical message. It helps the listener to better understand the essence of the music.
Fig.4 shows what happens when you reproduce the signal via ultra high performance driver. Now the bad sounds of any kind are completely pushed away from the river where the music is flowing. The parasitic sounds no longer draw attention to themselves - only the Music remains. You can even deliberately introduce heavy distortion of high order (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th order) in the signal and they will not affect the sound.  It will be the same as you are listening live music in the park and someone starts the engine of his motorcycle. The sound of the engine could be irritating, but you can still easily perceive the music, despite it is contaminated with noise. You just perceive the noise as completely separate part of the complex acoustic interaction.

Best regards,
Petar


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
07-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,960
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 19691
Reply to: 19690
As usually: well......
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hmmm…. With all elegance and I would say pictures’ explanation that Petar gave I do not know if I agree that the phenomena he described has to do a lot with driver. For sure the quality of a driver itself is important, very important but there are so many more participants that shape that “Parasitic Sounds”! perceptional decoupling of  Parasitic Sounds from music is fine but in my view it has less to do with acoustic system, at least with the acoustic systems that I am familiar. You can make ma very simple experiment. Take two phonostages (very good and very bad) and play a worn record. You will clearly hear that the bad surface noise of better phonostage will be less annoying and intrusive then from bad phonostage. If you however use the same phonostage but different speakers I feel that the effect will be less notable. The irony is that perceptional decoupling of Parasitic Sounds from music is very tricky and in many cases has nothing to do with quality of audio equipment as we commonly understand it in audio. I do not claim that I know how this mechanism works but I do feel that round everything around some kind of mythical characteristic of a driver is to make a disservice to own expectations.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 54
Post ID: 19693
Reply to: 19691
Of course everything affects the sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, as you can see, I have never wrote that these parasitic sounds depend ONLY on the quality of the drivers. It is quite obvious they depend on many many many other things (practically everything) as for example bad microphones, bad microphone cables, bad cartridges, bad electricity, bad amplifiers, steel around the output transformers and so on and so on. My point is that when someone plays low quality recordings (I mean low audio quality, not poorly performed music) on very low quality equipment (even terribly sounding equipment) if this low quality signal is fed to ultra high performance speaker driver, the music and the sound will be perfectly listenable and perfectly understandable. In any other case (anything lesser than ultra high performing speaker) the result will be very poor, because the sound will be polluted and the complains will start to pop up on the surface (complains about bad electricity, poor recordings and so on). The essence of my previous post is that if somebody has really top performing drivers, he will be practically immuned against everything that can ruin the Sound and Music. Of course if the rest of the equipment has better audio quality, the result will be better - no one denies the importance of the other audio components.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The irony is that perceptional decoupling of Parasitic Sounds from music is very tricky and in many cases has nothing to do with quality of audio equipment as we commonly understand it in audio.

Would you explain why do you think so? It certainly depends on the ability of a given person to “filter” the bad sounds away from his consciousness when listening to music, but I see no reason why it has nothing to do with equipment, as the result certainly depends on the abilities of the audio equipment. If it was so, there will be no reason the people (including you) to build seriously performing audio systems. I know that an experienced listener with proper musical culture who listens to his table radio will be able to extract the musicality out of the poor sound, but…


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
07-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 55
Post ID: 19695
Reply to: 19693
Parasitic sounds cont.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear Petar,

OK, I see what you mean. As far as I'm concerned, the driver(s) in question rendered the "parasitic sounds" in question quite distinctly from the music as performed. I do not mean that they were somehow unnaturally pushed to the periphery of the presentation, merely that they were present - as one would expect in so detailed a presentation - but not unduly bothersome or unpleasant, any more so than such noises are during live performances at which one is present. That said, the recordings used for this audition were very good ones with which I was very familiar; the coughs, shuffling feet and pages being turned etc were no more or less present than they should have been, and occupied the correct/plausible locations within the soundstage. As for sounds any more alien than these, I wasn't aware of any, although I'm now keen to test the above theory by playing a really poor, messy and detritus-laden recording through drivers of this quality in order to determine if the actual music remains pristine within the interference. What I was able to infer from the above audition makes me think that this would be the case, but I cannot say so as a matter of certainty as of the present time.

de Charlus
07-18-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,960
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 19696
Reply to: 19693
A self-contained entity.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 haralanov wrote:
Would you explain why do you think so? It certainly depends on the ability of a given person to “filter” the bad sounds away from his consciousness when listening to music, but I see no reason why it has nothing to do with equipment, as the result certainly depends on the abilities of the audio equipment. If it was so, there will be no reason the people (including you) to build seriously performing audio systems. I know that an experienced listener with proper musical culture who listens to his table radio will be able to extract the musicality out of the poor sound, but…

What I meant that in audio we deal with the sounds or Sound, or at least with perception of it. For sure it is valid and important category but it not necessarily has a direct relation with true music values. For sure bad Sound does impact musical values but we all know that good sound does not grand value to a bad performance. So, from a certain perspective we could recognize Sound as we deal with in audio and a self-contained entity that does not directly related to qualitative musical experience.  
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-19-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,401
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 19703
Reply to: 19696
Drivers/Speakers As Filters
fiogf49gjkf0d
The idea of a driver/speaker that "sorts out" noise and "puts it in its place" is very interesting!  But perhaps we are thinking wrongly about how this might be done?  As far as doing it earlier in the "reproduction" chain, I do know a version of this can be done with/by phono cartridges (and their set up), to separate vinyl noises from the sound field and Music, but the "digital version" of dealing with noise is different, to say the least, just as the Dolby for tape and FM are different, as well.  Now I am thinking of digital noise and bad electricity effects I am too familiar with, and I am wondering how I would approach trying to deal with this at the speaker "level".  Perhaps the more "realistic" the main, musical Sound is to our ears/brain, the better we are able to automatically and comfortably make "internal" adjustments for non-musical noise, like the coughing at a concert?  In any case, this idea of "perceived realism", however subjective it might be, is what drives my own curiosity, and if it winds up "excluding" noise from the program, all the better!  So far, bad electricity might spoil my Sound and Music at any time.


Paul S
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