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08-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 4892
Reply to: 4889
The open pool already exists
There are many different web fora devoted to audio, sound reproduction and music. People use them to exchange views about all kinds of subjects including specific items of equipment. Unfortunately they are populated by the 'barbarian dirt' who invariably lack 'serious intentions' when it comes to audio.

If you can pick your way past that, it is sometimes possible to learn something new or interesting but it also helps if you can be civil with the other participants.

Ultimately however they are still just opinions, as in the magazines (which you seem to read more assiduously than I do!) and therefore aren't really much help. Ultimately you have to form your own opinions which is why loaned equipment is sometimes helpful (with or without strings attached)
08-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,723
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 4894
Reply to: 4892
Unfortunately they are populated with whatever populates them.

 guy sergeant wrote:
There are many different web fora devoted to audio, sound reproduction and music. People use them to exchange views about all kinds of subjects including specific items of equipment. Unfortunately they are populated by the 'barbarian dirt' who invariably lack 'serious intentions' when it comes to audio.

It is not my experience. I know very little web sites that practice honest audio critiques with no strings attached. Evan among these few who do (did) practice open mildness some sites “turn south” eventually and some sited got overly populated with self-proclaimed audio-Shrink instead of audio experts. Very sad…

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 43
Post ID: 4905
Reply to: 4876
Church, Vegas & Invisible Sound
What happens when we say "Yeah man, that's what I said, the sound of your system sucks"?

What makes people so sensitive to criticism of their decisions regarding audio?

What makes audio different than other realms open to criticism?

Here are some thoughts :

It has to do with THE KNOWING that one has acted in a non-rational manner, which I guess with the exception of what goes on in church and in a Las Vegas casino is something our society just does not respect.

The guy who makes an “audio decision” had to make that decision based on what? More often than not, based on a not-so-solid base.

And why is it not-so-solid?

While most everything else we evaluate can be observed via more than one sense, in audio, the only thing to evaluate is sound, and one can only HEAR sound.

We are it would seem primarily a visually-oriented society... Ask most people what sense they would give up last, and most would say their sight.

And so it goes that only the blind make truly good use of their hearing. I don’t know why it is, but the rest of us would rather trust our eyes (I would be very interested in the work of blind audio manufacturers/reviewers).

So when an individual with more than a passing interest in audio makes a decision, and this could be either an audio consumer (purchasing), an audio manufacturer (design), or a reviewer (“declaration”), unless that person is blind, there is a very good chance that the decision was made based on what is basically an underdeveloped sense.

Combine this with the typically narrow base of references (see my previous posts in this thread) and you start to get the picture.

Here's a visually analogous scenario :

Imagine someone who absolutely wants the color pure orange, but at the same time is not quite sure he is capable of recognizing a truly pure orange, as he may have never seen it. People who can’t see color know of their deficiency, so naturally this person will consult others, possibly enlisting the help of an expert. Now imagine that nearly everyone is colorblind, but that there are some who, like fortune tellers claiming an ability to see the future, claim to be able to see color, and have turned the situation into a profession. These are the recognized experts.

Nobody is really sure these experts can in fact see color, but then they do seem quite sure of themselves, and that goes a very long way in reassuring the unsure.

And so the unsure audio decision maker eventually takes what is basically a leap of faith.

I will ignore the whole obsessive-compulsive/desperation aspect, a mark born by almost all with "an interest" in audio, and one which really catalyzes the whole sequence.

This leap usually represents a substantial investment. For consumers it is simply hard-earned cash; for component designers it means time, and finally the commitment to a design. For reviewers it's thier reputation that's at stake.

In cases of individuals having inadequate references it involves sweat. Reading of the tea leaves, chicken entrails, what have you... shoring up a certain uncertainty... Finally the investment/decision/declaration is made.

These people are not complete morons (not completely)... They are well aware that their investment was ill-informed but the decision "needed" to be made, so it gets made based on varying degrees of heebeejeebee.

Getting to this point involved a fair amount of navigation of the less than obvious. So, when somebody comes along and says, “dude, that sucks”, it is not so much the equipment that is under attack; the remark is likely processed as a direct attack on that person’s ability act rationally. I suppose we are in effect calling them a moron...

This situation exists because sound reproduction via audio playback does not permit an exact replica of sonic reality... We have to, and are willing to accept a reinterpretation... If people could hear a system that faithfully reproduced the original source, I suspect they would recognize it, and the fog would instantly lift. Even with our underdeveloped sense of hearing, it is easy to recognize sameness in sound, just as it is easy to recognize technical competence of an illustrator “my god, it looks so real”... On the other hand, what’s the point?... We have cameras for that... I’m not real sure, but what might be more interesting (once the possibility to faithfully reproduce sonic reality has been acquired) would be the intelligent reinterpretation of that reality; the subtle “pushing out” and “holding back” of certain elements, as might be done by a good illustrator or photographer...

Bottom line :
The audio guy is super sensitive to criticism ONLY WHEN HE KNOWS HE AHS ACTED IRRATIONALLY. Again, I can think of only two places where our society really respects irrational behavior : Church and Las Vegas...

Ever wonder why the Consumer Electronics Show happens in Las Vegas...

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,723
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 4916
Reply to: 4905
The absolutely wonderful summary!

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
What makes audio different than other realms open to criticism?

Here are some thoughts ....
What is the wonderful summation of the main plot of this thread!

The audio people are super sensitive to criticism only when they subconsciously knows that they have no real sanity or real thoughts behind their audio efforts. A person who has sense identity of his actions when he hears a criticism do not feel offended, as he tries to correlate his objectives and has thoughts process with the thoughts process of the criticism. A moron, who does audio with no sense of actions do not recognizes a rational behind criticism but rather recognizes critical comments as general offense.

What is so simple and so ingenious conclusion! I am very pissed by the fact that I did not come up with it conclusion myself before. That is perfectly correlates with many “critique accidents” in which I was involved when the people offended by my critiques were so primitive (or so scared) in their audio views that they did not even understood the arguments that I was able to bring up, backing up my critiques.

An excellent observation, Jessie!
Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,723
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 11965
Reply to: 2546
The Meow #205252
fiogf49gjkf0d

Again, about the stupidity of non-critical perception.

I have seen in audio all over – people visit each other, listen each other playbacks, in response to the hospitality of the owners they pass numerous compliments about the sound of given installation regardless the quality of sound they heard. What kind purpose this experience serves? Dose it enrich or benefit any of the parties? Two weeks ago I visited a local New England audio person and he told me the he have expressed some critical comments about somebody in past and people never invited him again. A few years back I was visiting another local New England audio person, who fancy himself an amplifier designer, and who in response to my critical comment about his sound literary kicked me out of his house. In both cased I wonder was it worthy to stay in that home or return back to those people? Are we in audio so much care about our made-up cheap publicity and stupid fraudulent egos?

I do not know how you but I very much willing and always do milk my visitors with critical comments about my sound, furthermore I do have tendency do not invite for a second time people who were not able to pass any criticism.  Visiting each other audio installations is nothing more than educational experience and to waste it for idiotic divertissements of pretentious congeniality is truly damn thing to do.

A case to point. The last night a visited a local audio guy who has a nice playback installation in his living room.  With the very first bars he played it was very clear that the playback sounded beyond horrible – it was a nightmare. Being me I informed me that it was horrible and very much not worthy nether to build a payback with this resulting sound nor continue to listening.  The owner of the system agreed with my assessment and then he did what very few and only if they are very smart people do – he proposed to find a bug that screw up the sound. After a couple hours we did found an element the was responsible for very bad sound and dealing with it we were able to make his playback to sound remarkably good, I mean really-really pleasant.

My question is – would it be any better if listening the initial crapy sound we did not go into criticism and did not made the right correction the were truly revolutionary in trim of results? Would any of three of us: him, I and his Sound be befitted if the guy in response to my criticism would show me the door as a few idiots did previously?  Well, the idiots who did had a great accomplishment – they continue to live in ignorance with the sound that worth their unhealthy self-image.  Good for them.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 3 of 3 (45 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Critique audio performance before acquire new element...  Critique audio performance before acquire new element....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     0  32482  12-31-2004
  »  New  Klangfilm: actual knowledge is better then fetish imagi..  Klangfilm Kl51...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  181919  03-15-2007
  »  New  The most appalling audio types...  The most appalling audio types: personally over-vested...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  98007  06-15-2007
  »  New  Bookshelf Horns..  How the menacingly-empty idiots design audio....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  37356  03-17-2010
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