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  »  New  Do not pursue full-range without being ready...  ...observing the better and worst in upper bass......  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     8  57281  01-02-2005
  »  New  It is possible to eliminate some forms of gross side ba..  Re: EnABL Pattern and Ribbed Cones...  Audio Discussions  Forum     22  111532  07-08-2005
  »  New  Truth stretched out via Feastrex prism...  Goodbye Chris Witmer...  Audio Discussions  Forum     26  215750  01-21-2006
  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  621338  10-19-2006
  »  New  EnABL: Just a note to awaken all of you peaceful sleepe..  I think "the Russian" is simply trying to con...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  78682  04-14-2007
  »  New  Maxonic drivers from Japan..  Large midwoofers...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  62701  06-14-2007
  »  New  A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther..  A new reiteration of the Moscow setup....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  235920  02-27-2011
  »  New  Fostex tweeters, Lowther broadbanders on a limited rang..  How Much Best?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  17022  04-12-2011
10-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 5498
Reply to: 5497
That's what's so great about this website!
You see, even Romy, who openly detests the Lowther, is right there to steer Lowther lovers to cogent information he has turned up during his eternal foraging for useful hi-fi trivia.

Thanks, Romy!

The chart on the juice bottle looks VERY interesting!  Maybe a little Crisco on the bottle...

And never forget, Lowther Nation, the idea is to match total FR output to the highest point on the stock, on-axis chart!

Never give up a dB without a fight, and never entrust any part of the spectrum to Lesser Drivers!

I am presently working on a plywood phase plug that will match the tone of even the most musical backhorn cabinets.  It will be The Best In The World and its use will forever banish all thoughts...

Watch this space.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-25-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 42
Post ID: 7009
Reply to: 5142
Better late than never
Paul
I have to admit being wrong about "BUdification" (enabl doted Lowther) process . I don't have explanation besides lenghty "brake -in " time but I would not bet on that. It may be a show stopper for you but I also admit liking them better in front horn than with EQ in close to Basszilla (REtsel ) solution. I do high pass them at ~200 Hz (1st order ).
I will let you listen to them if you're still interested . I post it here because I've lost your email .
Regards, Wojtek
03-25-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 43
Post ID: 7010
Reply to: 7009
Anything specific?
Hey, Wojtek, nice to hear it worked out for you.  And what did Retsel think?

Can you and/or Retsel say what you did not like about the un-Bud-ed Lowthers in the same installation(s) and what the improvements are?

I have been uneasy about "mere" "improvements" of the sort we listen to and like for a while before it dawns on us that the new stuff has its own problems

I hope I have been clear that I am not so much skeptical as I am unconvinced of anything I have heard ABOUT the "scientific" process itself.

Results are another matter, of course, and of course I am still curious to try it out for myself.

As I read your post I wondered if the process might somehow allow me to do without the stupid notch filters, which in turn require a Zobel; a really annoying situation, for sure; downright barbaric!

Talk about wishful thinking!

Meanwhile, I am also thinking about my mostly-bad-these-days electricity.

The Lowthers telegraph the bad electrical effects so clearly and they fade so readily and so quickly under these conditions that I would be concerned about getting enough good electricity to do a meaningful comparison!

But maybe the Bud models are so much better that there's no comparison?

Best regards,
Paul S
03-26-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 44
Post ID: 7011
Reply to: 7010
It did not work out for me
but it may be worthwhile for you since you're using OB's .I only heard very approximate version on Zilla baffles (Retsel) and I'll take horns with their coloration . I just was wrong assessing ENabl process . You can hear it for yourself and decide it it's a major or mere improvement
I have impression that your "electricity problem" is a recent itch . Did you visit the Cat and became allergic ?? Regards , Wojtek
PS my email: klamfil@earthlink.net
03-26-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
be
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts 86
Joined on 02-12-2007

Post #: 45
Post ID: 7014
Reply to: 3153
The almost perfect Lowther diaphragm?
Hey Lowther boys!

Anybody who heard these: http://cgi.ebay.de/Lowther-Reconing-Stamm-Membran_W0QQitemZ200209061041QQihZ010QQcategoryZ23323QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
03-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 46
Post ID: 7021
Reply to: 7014
Stamm
There has been a report at a German forum today, saying they are more detailed than Lowther, but also shouty.
03-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 7022
Reply to: 7021
The wrong tilt made wrong-er?
People never seem to run out of ideas to "improve" the stock Lowther, do they?  Ironically, the newer stock Lowthers feature a rolled-edge whizzer that is supposed to be there specifically to reduce "shout" compared to the older/outgoing model that had a straight-edged whizzer.  I had older "straight-edged" Lowthers, and the newer one are somewhat of an improvement in that area, IMO.  And now somebody's basically taken a step backwards by cutting off the rolled whizzer edge with pinking shears?  Did the originator have any special reasons for adopting this radical procedure or did he just do it and then claim the improvements?

Whatever anyone does, IMO it would be best to avoid exacerbating the already-problematic stock frequency "spikes" at 2.4k Hz and 8k Hz, and I certainly don't think the stock unit needs further up-tilting.  Sure, I like the "immediacy", too, but that spiked and up-tilted response does more than just bestow a sense of immediacy, and most of the rest of what it does is bad for music, to my ears.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 48
Post ID: 7024
Reply to: 7022
FS

You can get Lowthers reconed with FS (AER plagiate) diaphragms, more moderate, but no longer a Lowther.

03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 49
Post ID: 7025
Reply to: 7024
Another way to whack a Lowther
If you are brave and have a steady hand go here for a way to SOLVE Lowther problems. Without reconning. Ask Jon Ver Halen of Lowther America for his opinion too.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1248682#post1248682 post 345
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1256080#post1256080 post 373

Bud
09-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 50
Post ID: 8394
Reply to: 7025
Mutant Ninja BassZilla sighting
Looks like I'm back into this again, since, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Yoshi up and sent me his "neutered" Reps 1 drivers (he surgically removed the whizzers).

I started turning my existing Basszilla components and these guys together like a Rubicks Cube, and I got some ideas.

One "problem" of the BassZillas is insufficient headroom for large scale works with my ML2s.  And I just realized, for the first time, that the 15" Audax suffers a 3rd order low-pass network.  Hell, if I'd paid attention, that would have been changed to 2nd order a long time ago, to bring up the weight downstairs.

So, I was thinking I could just add the Reps to the same open baffle and gain over 3 dB, and then I remembered the notch filters and Zobel network that knock back the Lowthers' whizzers and it occurred to me that with the specific gain from the neutered Reps I could also lose the notch filters and Zobel networks and just bring up the LF with more efficient drivers.

This means that the neutered Reps would be on top, then the Audaphon JP2 naked ribbons, then the Lowther DX4s, with more efficient LF drivers in the bins below.  the Reps and Lowther would share a 2nd order 200 Hz high-pass.  The LF would have a 2nd order low-pass.  The JP2s would still use a 2nd order 10k Hz high-pass.

This should bump efficiency to better than 100 dB.

Then I thought that the baffle should be taller, and I might have to change the BR boxes...

Then I thought, maybe I should sell the BassZillas to a sane person before I ruin them, recoup some of my time to finance this latest madness.

My head is spinning!

A splash of cold water, please!

Paul S
10-03-2008 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Retsel
Posts 1
Joined on 10-04-2008

Post #: 51
Post ID: 8435
Reply to: 7010
Enabled Lowther drivers
I just found this thread and can comment on the Enabled DX4s.  Limono (Wojtek) very gratiously loaned his Enabled 8 ohm Lowther DX4 drivers to me this past summer (summer of 2008).  It took my a while to make the crossover for these (I have the 15 ohm Lowthers my my Basszilla speakers), but finally I got that together and tried out the enabled Lowthers.

I spent over a month with them and tried a lot of different music (all CDs).  I was able to sum up a lot of significant improvements.  The sound is much more dynamic, the instruments are better deliniated within their own space, therefore the sound is less diffuse (the diffuse sound is probably a symptom of the paper cones).  The more focused sound contributes toward the improved dynamics.  The cones tends to stay more coherent at all sound levels but particularly at higher sound levels, sounding less mish-mashy with complex musical passages.  High frequencies are more focused and again the tone is better (less wooly sound).  People complain about the high frequencies (treble) of the Lowther drivers - the Enable process much improves the high frequencies from the Lowther drivers - cymbals sound much better.  The tone is better for horn instruments as trumpets sound more like trumpets. 

I prefer multiway horn systems for their dynamics and single driver system for the coherency and tone.  The Enabled Lowther drivers bring the Baszilla speaker much, much closer to the dynamics of multiway horn systems.

Overall the Enable process makes the Lowther DX4s much better drivers, and the difference is not small; they are not perceived or a function of my imagination.  Putting back the old drivers back in "let the air out of the balloon.." 

I need to say, though, that the Enabled drivers are more transparent sounding.  They do a much better job of reproducing the electrical signal provided to them.  If you have any harshness upstream, you will hear it.  Limono did not like his Enabled drivers which is why he loaned them to me.  He later on brought over his amps and we were able to figure out that the 45 tubes that he was using were harsh sounding, which he did not pick up on before his Lowther drivers were Enabled. 

By the way, the 15 ohm Lowthers do not have a 2000 hz peak, and do not need a trap like the 8 ohm Lowthers need.

I will have the Enabled process done to my Lowther speakers, but I just have to figure out if I will try to do that myself, or if I will send the drivers to Bud.

Wojtek said that he preferred his horns to my Basszilla speakers.  I should say that I cobbled my Basszilla speakers together with some used plywood from some old closet doors.  They look pathetic, are not optimized and should not be used to compare front horns to open baffle speakers.  In fact, I am thinking of redesigning the Basszilla speakers to be waveguides instead of the flat baffles.  If I stay with the basic Basszilla speaker design, I will fix them and bring them up another level.  Even with these compromised Basszilla cabinets, the music is still wonderful with the Enabled Lowthers. 

Retsel
10-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 52
Post ID: 8448
Reply to: 8435
Lowther and Enabl
I corrected  a mistake in amps construction but the thing  I cannot explain is that after I picked up the drivers from Retsel they were much mellower /smoother sounding .Did hummidity change or they finally "broked -in" I don't know. Reports of improvement on Enabled cones are uniformly positive  so I must be an odball with my feeling that there is something lost in the layer of Enabl cone coating .I like them better in horns because I think they sound fuller/richer in lower midrange -less "hifishy" ,less audiophile /mainstream and there is this horn EQ mechanism working (even in such a low level implementation) .Thanks for the summary ,Retsel .I thought that Paul would jump in and write up something intelligent as I'm in a state of permanent confusion ;0) but he seems to be obsessed with electricity these days.
Regards, W
10-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 53
Post ID: 8449
Reply to: 8448
Drivers, Dope and Radio Flyers
Wojtek, I am indeed hemmed in by the fricking electricity these days, to the extent that it is about impossible to hold on to a baseline for reference.  And the Lowthers only make the problem more apparent.

Yes, I still wonder about how I would react to the EnABL process, given that I spent years (many years ago) messing with "dope" and other diaphragm/driver tuning/destroying methods.  Like I said several times, I would gladly and stupidly accept positive results without ever wholly buying into the specific cause/cure theory behind the process, especially if it "enabled" me to eliminate the notch filters and the compensatory Zobels I now suffer as the lesser of evils.  Frankly, however, I find pretty absurd the claim that it "brings up" the LF/MF rather than merely damping HF/peaks.  I just don't get this.

Also, like I mentioned earlier, Yoshi just threw me a slow, high "fat" curve ball in the form of his de-whizzered Reps drivers, and I am really itching to use them to raise efficiency and maybe re-configure/improve the bass.  I still like the OBs for mid- range, but I wish I was not so dependent on PERFECT electricity for decent upper bass, which problem I currently blame specifically on the OB Lowthers being yet over-extended, even though high-passed, at least most of the time.  However, and again, I have actually gotten pretty good upper bass from the DEBZs, so the "theoretical" aspect may be "sound", withal (for whatever that's worth...).

I kept up with Retsel's way-different version of the "BassZillas" for a while there, but now I wonder from his current description if I could glean anything useful from hearing about the EnABL'd DX4s in his speakers/system.  Bud P has told me in no uncertain terms that I have to actually try it on my own drivers and dial it in to my own system (ie, bite the bullet) to get the benefits, and I suppose he is probably right.

Perhaps others can see the irony in the fact that I am pretty happy with my system performance when the electricity is primo, just not so much when - as is more usual - electricity sucks.   In fact, I would hate to lose what I have on a gamble primarily induced by my disgust and impatience with bad electricity.

I think for now I will try to plan and map a strategy that allows me to go back if/when I screw something up during the course of my reaching and grabbing for "more".  For one thing, I HATE working up crossovers!  What is the easiest way these days (for the theory only, of course, since actually listening is always another matter)?

Wojtek, I hated things about the Lowthers immediately upon first hearing them, and none of these impressions/aversions have changed, either.  More irony is that what I liked best about the Lowthers - their "immediacy" - took a significant hit as I developed their speed and tonal neutrality, along with their rich harmonic potential.  I would hate to lose these hard-won traits or shift the balance to limbo in order to get calmer HF, which I have already +/- gotten by other means.
One thing for sure: an EnABLd driver is an EnABLd driver.  The only way to turn that around would be re-coning.

I periodically re-read the happy EnABLd talk to see if I missed somthing that strikes me as especially deep/significant as it relates to where I perceive myself/where I want to go.  If I jump, it will be into some sort of personally-pre-conceived place, not onto a bandwagon.

Best regards,
Paul S
04-19-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul Butterfield
Winter Park FL [Next to Rat-Town]
Posts 5
Joined on 08-24-2006

Post #: 54
Post ID: 10266
Reply to: 3153
Preliminary report regarding Lowthers new DX65
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hey Romy!

Been awhile... But I been sooooo busy!

Got some preliminary news to post regarding Lowthers new DX65:

For many months I've been corresponding with Jon at Lowther America regarding one of my experimental designs, integrating a Lowther DX 55 cone into the motor of an Lowther EX4, in an effort to produce a superior midrange/high frequency driver. I succeeded beyond my expectations, and I was the first in the US to build a 'DIY DX65.'  Jon told me "Someone is listening!" and Lowther UK is now marketing a similar design as my DIY DX55/EX4 — the DX65 driver... *grins*

I'm currently writing a 'White Paper' about the 'Quite Mad Frankensteining' of a DX55/EX4 and will report forthwith when finished.

Yours in Music, Paul

Paul Butterfield
Recording Engineer, IATSE A-1
Archival & Digital Audio Consultant, NEA
~~~~~~~~
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Single Ended Triodes @ Yahoo
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AA High Efficiency Forum
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--
"Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad."
- Angela Monet
11-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 55
Post ID: 14932
Reply to: 10266
Living With DX4s (or, trying to...)
fiogf49gjkf0d
IMO, any sonic benefits from running Lowthers stock are totally swamped by excessive, ragged response that is generally (but not steadily...) rising - a lot - toward HF.  There have been many ideas for "taming the Lowther", and here is another one, based on my long-term use of DX4s in my own version of Dick Olsher's original (and proprietary) Diamond Edition BassZillas.  It is "given" in the DEBZ plans that one has to do something with the stock Lowther response.

After years of messing with the stock DEBZ filters, and after scrutinizing Martin King's response and impedance plots (Thanks, Martin!), I have finally decided to trade the mallet for a scalpel.  Of course I still use a high-pass cap and a HF roll-off coil; but, whereas the stock notch filter and coil attempt to knock down two sharp humps and a rising top end with a quick 1-2 combination, I finally decided to address the individual response humps individually, with two notch filters before the coil, this in order to avoid dropping stock response dips even farther.

YMMV, but I used 130 uF "1st order" for the high pass, to offset baffle step and in recognition of the fact that the BR Audax PR380M2 does not do well over ~125 Hz.  I figured rising LF impedance at resonance would combine with the cap to effectively stuff LF.  I put the first LCR/notch TIGHT on 2,050 Hz with 60 uF, .09 mH and 5.1 R; I put the second LCR/notch TIGHT on 4,600 Hz with 30 uF, .04 mH and 5.1 R; I rolled it off @ 6dB/octave with -3 dB @ 6,800 Hz using .187 mH.  I left the stock Zobel.  I brought the ribbon in over a 2nd order filter, 6 dB down at 13.5k Hz.  The DEBZs gained weight and overall balance improved for the real.  They lost unwanted HF peaks without suffering adjacent suck-outs.   Clarity is fine now, but I expect the new caps will soon clamp down and then stay clamped for the next couple of months.

Of course, YMMV, naturally, but in any case I think the "double-notch" approach is "viable", given stock ("new" type, with rolled whizzer edge) DX4s, anyway.  At some point I may try wads of cotten instead of the end coil to shape the HF.

Paul S
11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 56
Post ID: 14991
Reply to: 14932
"Perfected" DEBZs (Keep or Sell?)
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I have shared several times here, I happen to regard the Lowther as nothing more than a means to an end.  Partly because of this, I have taken my lumps with this marque.  Today, I am pleased to have finally made the speakers I imagined 6 years ago, using the Lowther to best advantage, in the critical wide-band role.

Electricity was good and parts let up way more than I expected they would.  Clarity and overall communication were exceptional today, with loud, serious music from LPs.  The notch filters are already doing just what I hoped for with minimal downside, to the extent that I might say, "no downside"; definitely "viable".  I have gotten the DX4s to meet the Audax BRs in a very good place, and LF is as good as I have heard from BR of anywhere near this capacity.  With decent electricity and attention to the amps, I am in orbit.  Space is damn near empty, and detail is present at all frequencies, with a flat response (for a change!!!).  Who knew the Lowther could do all this?  Median pitch has apparently lightened somewhat (probably due to parts break-in), and all is well today in my listening room!

So, what kind of a nut-job would part with these speakers to take a long-range flyer on another seriously-complex DIY system he's never actually heard?


Paul S
08-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 18546
Reply to: 14991
Care and Feeding of Lowther: How Much Power is Too Much?
fiogf49gjkf0d
It just ocurred to me to stir things up by posting here about the fact that my own DEBZs (somehow) absorbed 600W peaks during a recent Mahler 3 frenzy. I remember reading somewhere that some owners of the biggest Horning speakers would run them at 120 dB, but this is the first time I have any experience like this to share.  From my own experience, the extra power (and probably the feedback) from my Marantz MA-9S2s makes the Lowthers sound better than before, especially at higher volumes and with more complex music.  It will take more listening at high levels to tell whether the "gelatin ceiling" still happens; but I was not thinking about this when listening to the Mahler 3. Rather, I was amazed at what the Lowther can do OB when fed by the MA-9S2.  And funny, but I think perhaps I can pull back a little on the notch filters (lower R), or I am curious to try it.  Whooda thunk it?

Paul S
08-29-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 58
Post ID: 18551
Reply to: 18546
OK, Maybe Not 600W...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Same thoughts, same amazing-for-Lowthers performances, etc., but ratchet the numbers down some, since my new amp's VU meter might be somewhat optimistic.  Do NOT try feeding your Lowthers 600W at home!

Paul S
06-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 59
Post ID: 19463
Reply to: 18551
Voxative: Dare to Dream
fiogf49gjkf0d
Move over Feastrex, here comes another OCD Lowther-alike, the Voxative something-or-other.  When you visit the V site via the link be sure to follow up on the wood-coned, field coil, nominal 8" FR driver that seems to be the only motor in the cabinet, claimed good for 25 Hz.  I saw them rolled out somewhere else a little while ago, and I think I remember that Voxative wants $100k/pr.


Paul S
06-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 60
Post ID: 19467
Reply to: 19463
Voxative Ampeggio Due
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looks like the link I intended to include above never made the transition, and it's too late now to edit it in, so:

http://www.voxativ.com/eng/

I had in mind that this link would go straight to the speaker I mention, but I did not follow it myself yet, so, we'll see.  The home page offers several language options.



Paul S
Page 3 of 4 (62 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Do not pursue full-range without being ready...  ...observing the better and worst in upper bass......  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     8  57281  01-02-2005
  »  New  It is possible to eliminate some forms of gross side ba..  Re: EnABL Pattern and Ribbed Cones...  Audio Discussions  Forum     22  111532  07-08-2005
  »  New  Truth stretched out via Feastrex prism...  Goodbye Chris Witmer...  Audio Discussions  Forum     26  215750  01-21-2006
  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  621338  10-19-2006
  »  New  EnABL: Just a note to awaken all of you peaceful sleepe..  I think "the Russian" is simply trying to con...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  78682  04-14-2007
  »  New  Maxonic drivers from Japan..  Large midwoofers...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  62701  06-14-2007
  »  New  A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther..  A new reiteration of the Moscow setup....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  235920  02-27-2011
  »  New  Fostex tweeters, Lowther broadbanders on a limited rang..  How Much Best?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  17022  04-12-2011
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