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  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  763898  10-19-2006
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  833608  02-16-2007
  »  New  The Full (fuller) Range Ribbons..  Pol Roger......  Audio Discussions  Forum     3  33963  02-22-2007
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Vasyachkin
Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts 47
Joined on 10-16-2008

Post #: 21
Post ID: 8714
Reply to: 8678
Taboo
fiogf49gjkf0d
 horny wrote:
Mentioning line and plane sources (and dipoles) at Romy`s site is sort of forbiden.


thanks for telling me. i don't care about dipoles though. i understand that they have advantages but to me that's not good enough. things should be PERFECT at least in theory. dipoles aren't perfect even in theory so i don't like them.

also while i think that Linkwitz is a good designer i also believe that many of his designs are motivated not by performance goals but by desire to make use of "his own" technologies - namely active filters, linkwitz transform, and dipoles.

of course Linkwitz is not the only one suffering from this syndrome. as the saying goes "to a man with only a hammer every problem looks like a nail"


visit my site:

http://www.diy-av.net
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 22
Post ID: 8715
Reply to: 8678
Macondo
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Vasyachkin wrote:
 horny wrote:
I believe Romy`s Macondos are the closest to the perfect horn loudspeaker.


is there a definitive description of what these Macondos are? pictures? i duno. i asked for a link already so far nobody wants to help me.



Don`t be so lazy, it`s all laid before you:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/MacondoAcousticSystem.aspx
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 23
Post ID: 8716
Reply to: 8678
?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Vasyachkin wrote:
 horny wrote:
Mentioning line and plane sources (and dipoles) at Romy`s site is sort of forbiden.


thanks for telling me. i don't care about dipoles though. i understand that they have advantages but to me that's not good enough. things should be PERFECT at least in theory. dipoles aren't perfect even in theory so i don't like them.

also while i think that Linkwitz is a good designer i also believe that many of his designs are motivated not by performance goals but by desire to make use of "his own" technologies - namely active filters, linkwitz transform, and dipoles.

of course Linkwitz is not the only one suffering from this syndrome. as the saying goes "to a man with only a hammer every problem looks like a nail"


For your information, electrostats, ribbons and planar magnetics have their advantages only if operated as dipoles. Enclose them at their rear and you get shit...
For majority of people here, the`re shit anyway.
You don`t care about them because you`re only "concerned" about the theoretical advantages rather than the end result. Which things are PERFECT even in
the theory, let alone real life?
Speaking of good designers, some of them can make fantastic drivers or invent great things, yet when it comes to sound quality assesment, they can be
hopelessly deaf. Not all though...
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 524
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 24
Post ID: 8717
Reply to: 8678
No stereo is ever perfect
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Vasyachkin wrote:
things should be PERFECT at least in theory.
For stereo systems, we start with two small microphones with strictly limited ability to capture an acoustic musical event at a particular combination of phases, reflections, amplitudes, etc. in a relatively low-level voltage situation -- I mean if you have ever done any recording then you know the huge differences if you move the microphone a few centimeters in one direction or another or rotate a microphone, overload to near clipping, use microphones with different frequency responses, etc. -- to take from this two low-level signals and then not simply reproduce these signals but somehow attempt to amplify them in a room with its own acoustic signature to try to recreate the acoustic energy of the original event...

It is not a perfect idea to begin with, no matter what road you take. Maybe you should restrict yourself to binaural headphone reproduction.
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Vasyachkin
Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts 47
Joined on 10-16-2008

Post #: 25
Post ID: 8718
Reply to: 8678
Macondo
fiogf49gjkf0d
 horny wrote:
Don`t be so lazy, it`s all laid before you: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/MacondoAcousticSystem.aspx


ok i see the general idea. i will read the description later and try to figure out what i think of the whole thing.





visit my site:

http://www.diy-av.net
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,966
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 8719
Reply to: 8678
The very essential mistakes you all make.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:
For stereo systems, we start with two small microphones with strictly limited ability to capture an acoustic musical event at a particular combination of phases, reflections, amplitudes, etc. in a relatively low-level voltage situation….

I very much disagree with this premise, in fact in my view it is a fundamentally erroneous premise. Many people (most of audio people) use the very same wrong assumption and it is quote bad. The same Vasyachkin at his site said:

“The signal chain has so many links in it - performer, instrument, microphone, A/D converter, equalizer/mixer/reverb/compressor/mastering engineer, D/A converter, amplifier, crossover, loudspeaker, cabinet, room, head transfer function, ear, brain ( to name a few ) that if you think you have it all figured out you are an idiot.”

What Vasyachkin said is also the manifestation of the very same and very essential erroneous premise as “drdna” proposed. Performer with his instrument and microphone is not the sores of “event”…

This wekk I am reading a DPoLS-related paper of a gentleman who said:

“Whereas replicating the original experiment – the singular musical experience - is clearly impossible, i.e. the problem structure is too complex, the play-back system should be able to replicate the degree of accuracy in the information processing by the recording-studio. Everything additional – I mean more resolving - is unnecessary and therefore worthless.”

The same mistake – the replicating the original experiment of what? The acoustic snapshot  of the performing space is something that defile musically in it’s entirety? Absolutely not!!!

A few years back Lechnitsky wrote a book about the new way playback systems assessment what he recognized a performing event as a “begin of the file” for a playback-made Claude  Shannon's communication bridge. Lechnitsky used the very same wrong premises.

Those all mistaken premises are the nectars from the same poison flowers: literally - a sonic event in performing avenue is NOT where “audio” starts.  I do not want to go into further explanations at this thread. In this thread Vasyachkin is bitching about anything and about nothing I would let him to do whatever he wants: this thread already annoys me: it all has no relation to horn-loaded ribbons and, in fact I have no idea what it is all about. Sometimes in future I would need to start a thread dedicated to the subject “Where audio communication chain starts” as I feel that audio people generally have very narrow view on this matter.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,407
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 27
Post ID: 8720
Reply to: 8678
Plain old Planars
fiogf49gjkf0d
The main trouble I've had with any sort of wave guide - including horns - is their audible-to-me signature shaping of the sound, like speach.  I just have a hard time shaking my awareness loose of the shaped sound as I try to listen to music through it.

There's already been a lot of discussion here about ribbons, per se, and this might shed some light on local thoughts about their strengths and weaknesses.

By far the most promising planar speakers I've heard have been the giant Sound Lab models.  These use an assortment of variously-sized "tuned" planes comprising one larger, "curved" plane.  However, for whatever reason or reasons, I never heard them get free of their amplification, meaning the sound/qualities of the amps always played a big part in the sound that came from these speakers.  Nor did I ever hear them get free in the dynamic sense, but they always seemed dynamically "tied" to the amps, as if holding or being held back.  Lastly, like other planars, they lacked the "good granularity"/traction that "propells" music dynamically.

Sounds like a rip job, I know, but they also do some things as well as any apeakers I've heard.  "Voicing" and clarity are breathtaking, and they do outstanding micro-dynamics over a very wide frequency range.  At their best, you might hear them playing piano from another room and figure it was a real piano.


Paul S
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 28
Post ID: 8721
Reply to: 8678
Ribbons
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:

By far the most promising planar speakers I've heard have been the giant Sound Lab models.  These use an assortment of variously-sized "tuned" planes comprising one larger, "curved" plane.  However, for whatever reason or reasons, I never heard them get free of their amplification, meaning the sound/qualities of the amps always played a big part in the sound that came from these speakers.  Nor did I ever hear them get free in the dynamic sense, but they always seemed dynamically "tied" to the amps, as if holding or being held back.  Lastly, like other planars, they lacked the "good granularity"/traction that "propells" music dynamically.
Paul S


As far as amplification goes, they are no different than other speakers. Horns for instance, are unbearable with anything but single ended amps.
Speaking of ribbons, there is some progress made, here I am talking about the only true full range ribbon, Transmission Audio  La Scala:

http://www.transmissionaudio.com/

 
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,407
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 29
Post ID: 8728
Reply to: 8678
Not the Same
fiogf49gjkf0d
I found the frequently-power-starved Sound Lab A1s and A3s to be audibly more amp-connected than some other speakers, including some that do not get as loud in absolute terms.  Although horns -generally speaking - may "need" SET to get free, one can always just go ahead and use SETs with them.  Which amps would you say set Sound Lab A1s free?  I hope SL's made progress over the years since I heard them, including finding amp pairings that "work" to really deliver their wares' promise.

No reason other than the odds to doubt TA products, although their own applications - as they describe them -  suggest +/- the usual criteria and methods of "evaluation".  Frankly, that (sub-)woofer looks too good to be true!  No doubt it's for born-to-wealth punters only?  And what kind of amp would that take?!?

As for planars, I have written elsewhere that the best sound reproduction I EVER heard was from Mark Levinson's stacked modified Quad 57s playing a live recording of a guitar player (playing Bach) who was wandering the hi-fi show that same day.  But the big Sound Labs made much louder and more dynamic sound with a much wider range of music (albeit with the previously-mentioned shortcomings).

As an OB user, I can live with di-poles, per se.  But lots of the better HF ribbons, anyway, are closed in back; they aren't all di-poles, functionally.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 30
Post ID: 8729
Reply to: 8678
We`re wasting Romy`s space...
fiogf49gjkf0d
I`ve had many small ribbons in my system over the years and I don`t like them. True, they are without competiton above a few Khz, but how to find a decent partnering midrange? They represent unnecessary fragmenting of the musical spectrum (a typical hifi approach). They are closed at the back primarily because of commercial reasons (to be mounted in the box) and not because of sound quality reasons. Once you here the coherency, resolution, power and transparency of 1 to 2 m tall true ribbon, there is no turning back. Now, imagine La Scala wich operates even in the bass as a true ribbon (no planar magnetic like Apogee, Magnepan or Analysis Audio). There are a few individuals all over the world (USA and Australia) who went that route and besides TA, there are no other commercial offerings yet. So, the future will be quite interesting...
Cheers!
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Vasyachkin
Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts 47
Joined on 10-16-2008

Post #: 31
Post ID: 8730
Reply to: 8718
Macondos
fiogf49gjkf0d
ok i read the description of the macondo philosophy / design as it was laid out at:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/MacondoAcousticSystem.aspx

i think i understand what you were trying to do and how you were trying to do it and i think that in some ways your approach makes sense.

yet in other ways your approach does not make sense but these are ways that you probably will not understand ( or maybe understand but will reject ) just like i probably will not understand some of the ways in which it does make sense.

i am not sure if we even have anything to argue about here. my concern is designing a system that is maximally logical - one that most pure from the standpoint of engineering. your concern is a system that simply WORKS regardless of how it does it.

what you're essentially doing is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_computation

which can be effective but while producing results does not necessarily produce understanding. understanding for me is as important, and probably more important than results.


visit my site:

http://www.diy-av.net
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 8733
Reply to: 8730
Crossing the diamond with the pearl
fiogf49gjkf0d

Vasyachkin wrote :

"...my concern is designing a system that is maximally logical - one that most pure from the standpoint of engineering. your concern is a system that simply WORKS regardless of how it does it..."

Try this : Take a Williams pear and eat it with some Roquefort cheese; then post your findings.

Fantastic no?

After the fact, we can of course use logic to analyze why it "works", but all the chemistry and logic in the world would not have lead one to suspect that such a magnificent result might lie in the combining of these two ingredients... Nor was this discovery the result of trial and error; it was rather a case of listening to one's intuition, understanding the objective, and having yes, some "technical" knowledge allowing him to get there.

Here is something I came across while looking for another quote :

G. K. Chesterton (English writer) wrote :
"...One can only find the truth via logic if one has first found truth without logic..."

jd*

PS : I'm serious ; Try the pear + Roquefort, and all we be clear!
(Société brand Roquefort is available in the U.S... Do not try substituting blue cheese)

...Is there gas in the car?
Yes, there's gas in the car
I think the people down the hall know who you are...


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,966
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 8734
Reply to: 8730
Ok, please get it right.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Vasyachkin wrote:
… understanding for me is as important, and probably more important than results.

In such case it is no surprise that you quote the ridicules Stephen Hawking. It is also no surprise that you practice rants about impotent applications of scientific methods. Russians have an idiom – “a hat burns on the head of theft” that is something similar to American “pot call a cattle black” but I like the Russian idiom more as it more encompassing… The senator Larry Craig was a big anti-gay activist because he needed to overcompensate his own internal issues – the hat was very obviously burning over years on the head of that theft…  I think your discomfort with science (or with whatever you believe science is) comes from the fact that you do not feel comfortable with science results you experienced with. Well, there is nothing wrong with it BUT I one more time would like to remind you that my site is not a avenue for social interaction but rather a subject-centric site.  With all of your more or less interesting views on world I hardly see any connection in what you say with audio. Even when you do talk about audio and use purely audio vocabulary I do not recognize that you mean anything applied-audio meaningful. I do not mean to be critical I juts would like you to be a little more self-censoring  when you post here as for the last few days there was uploaded a lot of ballast posts to this site that diluted my interest  to post around here. Perhaps it is my problem but it is kind of my personal site and I would like to keep it on the even keel of content that I recognize as “audio interesting”, interesting at least to me. 

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Vasyachkin
Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts 47
Joined on 10-16-2008

Post #: 34
Post ID: 8742
Reply to: 8734
Applied / evolved audio
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I one more time would like to remind you that my site is not a avenue for social interaction but rather a subject-centric site.&nbsp; With all of your more or less interesting views on world I hardly see any connection in what you say with audio. Even when you do talk about audio and use purely audio vocabulary I do not recognize that you mean anything applied-audio meaningful. I do not mean to be critical I juts would like you to be a little more self-censoring&nbsp; when you post here as for the last few days there was uploaded a lot of ballast posts to this site that diluted my interest&nbsp; to post around here. Perhaps it is my problem but it is kind of my personal site and I would like to keep it on the even keel of content that I recognize as “audio interesting”, interesting at least to me.&nbsp; </P>
Rgs, Romy the Cat


well i can see that you're a very special kind of person. this is neither a compliment nor an insult - just a statement of fact. i also believe that your intentions are genuine in the sense that your primary concern is either audio nirvana or the quest for it and not something else.

it is also clear that you are offended by everything i say even though you know that is not my goal.

the solution is for me to only post questions on this site and express my own views elsewhere. that way everybody stays happy.

by the way i think i know what you believe to be "the source of event" but imho you should still write an article about it. if i am guessing correctly you believe your own listening experience ( as opposed to musical performance ) to be the "source" ... but while i think such a point can be argued you still have to argue it.


visit my site:

http://www.diy-av.net
Page 2 of 2 (34 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  763898  10-19-2006
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  833608  02-16-2007
  »  New  The Full (fuller) Range Ribbons..  Pol Roger......  Audio Discussions  Forum     3  33963  02-22-2007
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