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02-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 21
Post ID: 23024
Reply to: 22649
Jean Hiraga modeling
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/406howard/index.html#Yf8j2w7Oy8utf7Ez.97

Jean Hiraga idea :
"According to this view, an amplifier that produces dominant odd-order harmonics—behavior typical of push-pull designs—can never sound as natural as one in which both even and odd harmonics are present with progressively declining amplitudes."
02-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 459
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 22
Post ID: 23028
Reply to: 23024
Imbalance
Mind you that PP has even-order cancellation only in the ideal world. The imbalances in the PP pair, either random or intentional, will generate some even harmonics. I think Lynn Olson was using an intentional imbalance  in his Karm amp exactly for this purpose.

Cheers,
Jarek



Cheers,
Jarek
02-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,213
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 23
Post ID: 23030
Reply to: 23028
Credit Where Credit Is Due
Yes, all fine and good, but this notion was advanced by any number of people well before they heard it from Jean Hiraga (if they ever did).  And like "inaudible distortion", it turned out that there's more to it than "even order distortion".


Paul S
12-23-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 24
Post ID: 25195
Reply to: 23030
Our short Audio Story
what is audio ?
Audio is our reaction to sound , if there are audiophiles with different reactions then you may convince yourself Audio quality is relative to listener. I think it is not true. The real quality exist itself . Very very few audiophiles can  view the right direction , yes i believe there is right direction and there is wrong direction.
The Audio Story of all audiophiles in my city Tehran is very similar . 
Let me tell the story : They start the game with impressive sound of highly silent extended high resolution sound. I name it “Macro linear systems”. Audio Measurements of these components are perfect . They pay more for more refined sound like replacing mcintosh with Solution or replacing transparent cable with acoustic revive and ... They improve their sound just in that direction. Magazines are ready to service this group of audiophiles . Some of them (very few) after some years ask themself why the sound of cheap car stereo is more engaging than those million dollors audio system?! They will try to go for tube and analog world and they replace a impressive sound with more dynamic more emotional sound. Most of them play limited bandwiths loudspeakers. I name it “Micro Linear System”  Art Dudly write for those audiophiles. Audio Measurements of these components is not good. Very few from this group will ask themselves where is the power of music?! They go for extended high dynamic range high sensitivity multi way  loudspeaker to get both emotion and power of music. The Audio measurements of these systems is good. In The last level they listen to pure energy of music and no other experience equals to it. Both macro and micro structure of sound is perfect. I believe all of our efforts (time  research money) is worth when you get those sound.
After having a good system i think without Good speaker position (hiding loudspeakers in room and getting maximum dynamic sweep) and without good AC power and without good source (high quality records) we could not get that level. 
More than 90% of audiophiles are in the first road , 9% of them are in second road and 1% are in third road.
I am interested to start a 4 way horn loudspeaker but the cost is high . I hope i could do that before 2020.
12-23-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 171
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 25
Post ID: 25196
Reply to: 25195
Unfortunately in my limited experience
90% of the owners of 4 way horn speakers are way below the level of those chrome bumper audiophiles you refer to. I would not concern myself with the levels , classifications and a desire to belong to the elite club. I already imagine you chasing those Vitavox drivers and bidding wars with Asian collectors (like there is no other suitable  "junk' )All the best. 
12-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 26
Post ID: 25197
Reply to: 25196
Classification is not related to audio components
I do not classify audiophiles by their components. I 100% agree most horn owners may be in first group or many tube lovers be in the first group.Audio components are just our tools and those classification (i do not look at it as classification) refers to mind and awarness of audiophiles. 
12-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 301
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 27
Post ID: 25198
Reply to: 25195
Levels of perception are not tied to audio or hardware
Amir, I question your statement. There are so many senses (visual, aural, touch, smell). These senses can be fooled very easily.We do not need audio playback for anything except our own personal pleasure. I insist that there is no way to measure personal pleasure.
When we want to develop our senses, there are no set ways to attack this. Sometimes a great cognac or cigar can alter our mood and we perceive a deeper level of appreciation for a book, a snack, or a live concert. The ability to appreciate MUSIC is the beginning of road to better aural awareness. Knowing Haydns intentions is significant to developing taste for that music, its performance and perhaps the recording process.
Limitations in the quality of a concert hall, recording quality, analog or digital medium do not affect the appreciation of fine music. If we allow ourselves to get distracted, then the music was not important enough.
I maintain that audiophoolery tries to convince us that there are hardware solutions for sound quality. I disagree. Hardware solutions only feed our egos.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
12-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 28
Post ID: 25199
Reply to: 25198
Music is different to Audio
 rowuk wrote:
Amir, I question your statement. There are so many senses (visual, aural, touch, smell). These senses can be fooled very easily.We do not need audio playback for anything except our own personal pleasure. I insist that there is no way to measure personal pleasure.
When we want to develop our senses, there are no set ways to attack this. Sometimes a great cognac or cigar can alter our mood and we perceive a deeper level of appreciation for a book, a snack, or a live concert. The ability to appreciate MUSIC is the beginning of road to better aural awareness. Knowing Haydns intentions is significant to developing taste for that music, its performance and perhaps the recording process.
Limitations in the quality of a concert hall, recording quality, analog or digital medium do not affect the appreciation of fine music. If we allow ourselves to get distracted, then the music was not important enough.
I maintain that audiophoolery tries to convince us that there are hardware solutions for sound quality. I disagree. Hardware solutions only feed our egos.

I 100% agree you that music is not tied to audio or audio hardware. those are different worlds and i look at audio as a separate subject.many times i listen to music with apple crap airpod or i listen to music in my car. i have no problem and i enjoy music .i think we should separate music from audio discussion. many times i enjoyed music from my 100$ portable sony but i did not enjoyed live concert of same melody.
William James "Will" Durant say "does the life quality of humans really improved after advancing Civilization?the term of "reall improvement" refer to the fact that not all improvements are real improvement .
i think smart peoples look at audio only in concept of "real improvement" and they do not goes for Vicious cycle. 
12-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 301
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 29
Post ID: 25200
Reply to: 25199
Why audio if not music?
My audio IS a musical event. If we remove the musical appreciation, what are we playing back? Why is playback even important? To feed our ego?
The relation of the recorded event to the playback is different, but the relation to my senses share many of the same things.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
12-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,644
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 25201
Reply to: 25198
Do hardware solutions and sound quality related?
 rowuk wrote:
I maintain that audiophoolery tries to convince us that there are hardware solutions for sound quality. I disagree. Hardware solutions only feed our egos.
 This is very complicated question, rowuk, at least in my estimation. I do not argue that solutions feed our egos, there is plenty of it but it does not exhaust the whole picture. I have been in hear a strong supporter of a view that music and audio have distinctly different objectives and means, probably it is better to say not “means” but inner-mechanism for declaring itself. It is not that music and audio do not have arrays of inner-penetration, for sure they do. Still, they are different animals. It is would be similar to design treadmills and health, they for sure are connected and one can be used to evaluate other but essentially they are very different sectors of humans endeavor. 
 
Now the complex thing: the relationship between are hardware solutions for sound quality. I very much insist that quality of hardware solutions are very directly impact sound quality and very directly impact music consequences of that sound quality. I know that you expressed skepticism but I think you incorrect.  The problem is not in the supposition that I am expressing but with the definition sound quality that might be interrupted very wide. The “audiophoolery tries to convince us that there are hardware solutions [do something] for sound quality”, and they are absolutely correct. The key is their definition of “sound quality”. The sound quality that industry is patronizing for many year is a direct consequence of hardware solutions, some of them positive, some of them negative. Did you ask yourself why for over 100 year of audio industry, in one form or another, the industry never formulated more or less standard methodology for sound quality evaluation and assessment? My point is that when “sound quality” has a proper formulation in the ears (and the most important in the minds) of sound consumers then the relationship between hardware solutions for sound quality is very direct and very unambiguous. Unfortunately, the definition of “sound quality” as it been sponsored by audio industry is not the sound that has any relation to musicality or to any other human benefits … besides the “feeding our egos”. 
 
So, are the hardware solutions and sound quality related, yes they do. Does “sound quality” is a known ingredient or even to say commodity in the industry he produced the hardware solutions? Absolutely not and therefore in most of the cased the hardware solutions indeed are just to feed our egos. It might not ned to be this way…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-26-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,213
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 31
Post ID: 25202
Reply to: 25201
Guiding System Development

For sure, not everyone consciously guides along and shapes their overall sound with the hardware they choose, and there are many variations of the “guiding” to talk about among the people who do guide their sound development. I would like to say that current “high end” sound is as generally bad as it is because it was guided there by Morons, but this would only be a partial explanation of what’s going on here.  For one thing, it appears to me that guiding sound from the beginning to the end of a system is not common whether it’s a cheap or an expensive system. And, although the music chosen to evaluate components tells a lot about the “system owner”, it’s often hard to be sure we are “listening for the same things” when we listen to “the same music”, including through the same system. This is why shaping audio is ultimately a personal thing, even when there are attempts to “brand” components or build fraternities around them. Yes, people/companies can reproduce components that sound close enough one to the other to where they can be chosen for their sound. But once a component gets plugged into a particular system in a particular room, and the music changes, it gets personal again. And it can be “argued” that this is one reason why demonstrations at hi-fi shows are rarely any good. Of course, another reason is the stupid “music”, invariably pan pipe, that sort of thing, that is used by “manufacturers” to “prove” their ideas. You have to be pre-hypnotized, going in, to buy stuff like this! In general, hi-fi components are designed based on "specs" rather than targeted sound. But this shouldn't interfere with component selection any more than sound targeted by someone else should encourage selection. Either way, it's gotta be personal!



Paul S

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09-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 32
Post ID: 25595
Reply to: 25202
Audiopax Model 5 Audiopax model 88
finally these beautiful pre/power delivered to me and they are playing music for break-in.I will report about sound of Audiopax model 5 & Model 88.


The system :   CEC TL0 3.0 Transport     Audio Note DAC 5 Special      Audiopax model 5     Audiopax Model 88     Audio Note AN-E SPE HE 97.5db Sensitivity (coming soon) now i use Living Voice Obx-rw3     All AN cables and Purist Cables    Pure Power 3000+ AC regenerator     
Room is 5.3m * 9m 


The model 5 pre amplifier is high voltage FET design (pure solidstate without any tube)The model 88 power amplifier 28w single ended 2x KT88 tube .Audiopax use no negative feedback and it is very sensitive to loudspeaker impedance curve.
My first impression is positive but i should wait to pass 500 hours .Audiopax solidstate pre with tube power amplifier does not sound like other tube pre/power and it is a new experience to me. My system is solidstate in transport and tube in dac and again solidstate in pre and tube in power. Very rare combination.
The power amplifier model 88 has a timbre lock setting that help us to have better sound with different loudspeakers. It is not hype and it really works for me.
I will back soon ...
10-05-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 33
Post ID: 25616
Reply to: 25595
Arrival ...
Very interesting Amir.

I am also waiting on a Model 5, to arrive in the UK. It was ordered some months ago but I ordered a balanced version (this one will be all-balanced - two balanced inputs and balanced output) and that's taking a little longer to make than expected.
My system is also somewhat similar, with the solid state pre in the middle of a largely tube system:
Audio Note CDT2/II transport, Audio Note kit DAC, much upgraded and with completely custom power supply, Schopper Thorens TD124 with Ikeda IT407 and IT345 tonearms, Miyajima Madake and Takumi stereo cartridges, Miyajima Zero 1.0 and 0.7 cartridges and Kotetu 78, Miayjima ETR-Stereo and ETR-Mono step-ups, Allnic H7000V phono stage, and Silvercore 833C monoblocks. Speakers are custom Tannoys based on the 12in HPD315A driver, with external crossovers.

The Model 5 and the Allnic replace an EAR 912 phono preamp.
I have a loan of the Audiopax L50 at the moment waiting on it and the combination is sublime ... if the Model 5 gives me most of this I will be very pleased indeed.
How are your impressions after another couple of weeks with the Model 5?
I would very much like to hear the Model 88 with my Tannoys.


10-06-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 34
Post ID: 25617
Reply to: 25616
Let me know why Audiopax inject energy to the sound
first i should say i need more time to judge the Audiopax for some reasons but i try to share the first thing come to my mind after listening to Audiopax.
I should say i use Pure Power 3000+ , I mean i judge Audiopax when it is connected to PurePower.

Audiopax is not like other amplifiers i have ever heard. I have heard Tenor EAR Ayon Pathos Shanling Raysonic Accuphase Naim Krell Mark Levinson Burmester Vitus Audio Research Conrad Johnson ASR Emitter Air Tight Devialet Mcintosh NAD Denon Roksan Gryphon and ... from 2002 i have heard most of audio systems in tehran and i just only interested by Audio Note/Kondo & Audiopax products.

The pre amplifier Audiopax model 5 is solidstate high voltage FET with output transformer and it has no negative feedback, you can check it's output impedance , it is very high because it does not use NFB and you should connect it to high input impedance power amplifiers (over 200k).
The Power Amplifier Audiopax Model 88 is single ended class A1 pentode tube (it is not hybrid) amplifier with 2 KT88 per channel .The output impedance of model 88 is 3.7 ohm (it is high because it does not use negative feedback) and you should connect model 88 to flat impedance curve loudspeakers (above 6 ohm and less than 40 degrees phase). I think for average room size you should choose above 96db loudspeakers. I have ordered Audio Note UK AN-E SPe HE 97.5db Sensitivity and i will get it in november.

Like pure power 3000+ the Audiopax inject magical energy to the sound and i do not know why audiopax could do that. this is a new experience to me and it is very very positive. these are my guests :
1. the energy in sound may come from using soildstate pre with tube power like CEC TL0/Audio Note DAC Combination. in past I have heard hybrid power amplifier but no hybrid power amplifier was good to me. i also have heard EAR solidstate pre 312 with EAR 861 tube power amplifier but 312/861 did not inject any energy to the sound (the EAR were also connected to pure power 3000+).
2. the energy in sound may come from using different PSU design . Silvio told me Audiopax do not use any regulator in PSU.
3. the energy in sound may come from model 5 design (my friend told me it may use X-Factor like Lamm Pre)
it seems Eduardo de Lima was very smart designer.
i do not know why Audiopax inject energy to sound and i ask here if any body could tell me why? it is 2 weeks that i think about this question and i hope i could find the answer.


10-06-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 35
Post ID: 25618
Reply to: 25617
More Audiopax ....
Interesting post. Having heard in my system both a first generation Model 5 (which is what persuaded me to order the current model) and the L50, I do know what you mean about energy. It's partly dynamics, but also a great sense of musicality, of timing, 'snap' ... the Audiopax is a very enjoyable preamp.




10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 36
Post ID: 25619
Reply to: 25618
It is about dynamics
yes , the “energy” is about dynamics 
10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 37
Post ID: 25620
Reply to: 25619
Silvio Comment
I publish here the Silvio Email about model 5 and model 88 to correct my description :

                                                                                        .
"I have only two observations/suggestions:

    The final result in terms of volume that you get with a system is related with speaker sensibility, amplifier power, room size and personal tastes. I have  very satisfied customers that have the Model 88 with very low sensibility speakers (from 87dB), as the Merlins.
    It’s a more precise if we say that we use no “conventional regulators” in our PSUs

Best regards,

Silvio"

10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 38
Post ID: 25621
Reply to: 25620
Audiopax continued
Thanks Amir. My Tannoys are 92db, and measure reasonably flat, but don't usually go well with single ended power amps as they need at least a moderate damping factor to control the large cone, otherwise the bass can be poorly defined (working best in the 20 to 50 damping factor range - higher than this and the life can get sucked out) - this seems to apply regardless of the absolute power rating.
However my current single ended amps seem to work very well, I don't have measurements though. I remain curious about the Model 88 but will need to wait a little I think before I can hear a set. Meanwhile I am quite excited about the Model 5 which I hope will be completed soon.

I was trying to message you directly regarding the output impedance of the Model 5, I'm keen to know what value you measured, but I don't seem to be able to send a message, perhaps I don't have enough posts yet.
10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 217
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 39
Post ID: 25622
Reply to: 25621
Minimum power
amplifier should not clip before loading the room by speaker , this is the minimum power we need.I think 92db needs over 60w for medium size rooms.

10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 40
Post ID: 25623
Reply to: 25622
Odd calculation
How do you make that calculation? Seems to be way out of line with my experience. I have been very happy with 35w maximum of Radford STA25 push-pull valve power, and my current 20w single ended works just fine.

I'm listening to mainly to renaissance, baroque and classical music, not running a discotheque. I can't ever recall driving amps to clipping.
Could you share the measurement of the Model 5?
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