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06-18-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 281
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 21
Post ID: 25488
Reply to: 25475
Well, the thread title is ideal HORN system...
I most certainly agree that the entire listening experience has far more factors than just hard and software. If we are talking about „ideal horns“, then this implies some „gear focus“. Of course the hardware is subservient to the attitude, but then we add „ideal attitude“ or Transmit vs Receive (RX vs TX). We can even discuss whether „ideal“ means current state of flux or work in progress. This could torpedo ANY discussion about „ideal“ anything.

In any case, there are some hardware considerations that do contribute to better total systems. That was my motive to post and now whine like a wounded ass Hyena :-)



Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
06-18-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 163
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 22
Post ID: 25490
Reply to: 25488
One of two ideals
Number one, that I'd like to run by you guys due to it's simpler nature and closer to reality execution is the idea I have been thinking about. No first hand experience with any of this.

Say we use something like altec 1505b multicellular horn that shall be used 400 to 5k. Now take the very central horn sector (the one in the middle vertically and horizontally) and disable it's midrange function and place a wider dispersion tweeter horn in it (or in its location). This shall cover 5khz and up. It may be a exponential profile but modified of wider dispersion.

So we end up with a point source from 400-15kz, true horn loaded but with wide, even dispersion, unlike the 1505b on it's own.From there we use some sort of concentric midbass configuration, possibly sealed box or short horn of the same length as the 1505b for natural time alignment. For example a quad of 12" light paper woofers -- two above the 1505b and two below. A sort of pseudo concentric configuration.This midbass section may be used 80-400hz.

Some subs of choice below 80hz.
The 1505b type midrange horn may be made longer as well, I think, maybe to load down to 350hz.

The MAIN idea here is approximation of a point source 80-15khz but more or less properly implemented. The tweeter will need a delay line, but other channels won't. Something like this for the delay line:
https://www.kv2audio.com/products/processors/sdd3.html
Yes, the tweeter will have to have digital delay. But still filtering all around can be implemented with 6db/oct crossovers, I guess.
Also an omniderectional super tweeter can be used above 15khz, and time aligned physically.

I have a second "idealhorn" concept as well but it is more wacky, more experimental and "out there". I can share that one as well if interested. At least this one is doable.
06-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,205
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 23
Post ID: 25491
Reply to: 25490
Again with the DSP
Well, if you're gonna try the DSP, then just do it.  All the best PA systems do it.  If you have the equipment to test and verify, you MIGHT get lucky with running opposite polarity.  But - if you believe it - all such problems can be solved with DSP.


Paul S
06-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 281
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 24
Post ID: 25492
Reply to: 25490
How do you time align the tweeter?
 noviygera wrote:
Number one, that I'd like to run by you guys due to it's simpler nature and closer to reality execution is the idea I have been thinking about. No first hand experience with any of this.

Say we use something like altec 1505b multicellular horn that shall be used 400 to 5k. Now take the very central horn sector (the one in the middle vertically and horizontally) and disable it's midrange function and place a wider dispersion tweeter horn in it (or in its location). This shall cover 5khz and up. It may be a exponential profile but modified of wider dispersion.

So we end up with a point source from 400-15kz, true horn loaded but with wide, even dispersion, unlike the 1505b on it's own.From there we use some sort of concentric midbass configuration, possibly sealed box or short horn of the same length as the 1505b for natural time alignment. For example a quad of 12" light paper woofers -- two above the 1505b and two below. A sort of pseudo concentric configuration.This midbass section may be used 80-400hz.

Some subs of choice below 80hz.
The 1505b type midrange horn may be made longer as well, I think, maybe to load down to 350hz.

The MAIN idea here is approximation of a point source 80-15khz but more or less properly implemented. The tweeter will need a delay line, but other channels won't. Something like this for the delay line:
https://www.kv2audio.com/products/processors/sdd3.html
Yes, the tweeter will have to have digital delay. But still filtering all around can be implemented with 6db/oct crossovers, I guess.
Also an omniderectional super tweeter can be used above 15khz, and time aligned physically.

I have a second "idealhorn" concept as well but it is more wacky, more experimental and "out there". I can share that one as well if interested. At least this one is doable.

I see a problem with any „coaxial“ attempt in one horn. The length of the horn is correct for one band, but not both HF and MF. If the horn is optimized for MF, if is too long for HF and works like a transmission line at those frequencies. The wrong horn flare means that the horn EQ is applied to the wrong frequencies with no appreciable gain where we need it.
Is a point source a „worthy“ goal? What sonic advantage does it offer? Is there a problem with convergence of the MF, HF and UHF at the listeners seat or is it a myth to promote hifi agendas?
Horns are decade devices as a rule (with few exceptions). That is based on the geometry of the horn, not how wide band the driver is.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
06-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 163
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 25
Post ID: 25493
Reply to: 25491
Not all DSP!
In this case something like 5khz to 15khz -- only for the tweeter and only for DELAY. However, if the cellular midrange horns have smooth coverage above 5khz, all the better. But I have no experience with them - maybe they sound good to 8khz....

Of course this topic is "ideal horns". I decided to approach this concept "gradually". But I sense a note of disappointment from others upon mention of DSP in the same paragraph so I will move on to my 2nd, more ideal, ideal concept but not the final.

2nd concept:
An array of omni directional horns. If we take the example of Duevel type omni horn and divide it in 3 channels of midbass, midrange and tweeter. They will need to be physically time delayed and so this stacking concept will provide this. At the listener the paths should be equal. This is a side view of one channel.
3way_omni_horn.jpg



06-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 163
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 26
Post ID: 25494
Reply to: 25492
Delay on tweeter
 rowuk wrote:


I see a problem with any „coaxial“ attempt in one horn. The length of the horn is correct for one band, but not both HF and MF. If the horn is optimized for MF, if is too long for HF and works like a transmission line at those frequencies. The wrong horn flare means that the horn EQ is applied to the wrong frequencies with no appreciable gain where we need it.
Is a point source a „worthy“ goal? What sonic advantage does it offer? Is there a problem with convergence of the MF, HF and UHF at the listeners seat or is it a myth to promote hifi agendas?
Horns are decade devices as a rule (with few exceptions). That is based on the geometry of the horn, not how wide band the driver is.

I like the concept of point source not because it's trendy but because it provides equally timed room reflections and a natural acoustical environment. And a larger sweet spot of time aligned source of sound.
In my 1st example there will have to be DSP delay on the tweeter.
06-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,205
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 27
Post ID: 25495
Reply to: 25493
The Purpose of the Horn
Gera, is this an idea you're familiar with from a sonic standpoint?  The horns are supposed to boost lower frequencies within their pass bands without adding their own sound, or - more realistically - allowing for their own minimal contribution to the sound.  Problems include growing size of the horns as frequencies drop, which eventually becomes an issue where physical/temporal alignment is concerned, also "dispersion" issues, including summing/cancellation/combing.  In my Mad Hatter youth I tried almost randomly all sorts of "horns".  FWIW, I never heard folded horns I'd put in this thread.  If point source is something you cling to,  the "pure" horns approach does not seem to be the approach to take.  Not understanding the "theory" here, this omni seems almost like the "opposite" of "point source", vs., say, Heil or MBL...


Best regards,
Paul S
06-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 281
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 28
Post ID: 25497
Reply to: 25494
Serious Coax? Where?
 noviygera wrote:
 rowuk wrote:


I see a problem with any „coaxial“ attempt in one horn. The length of the horn is correct for one band, but not both HF and MF. If the horn is optimized for MF, if is too long for HF and works like a transmission line at those frequencies. The wrong horn flare means that the horn EQ is applied to the wrong frequencies with no appreciable gain where we need it.
Is a point source a „worthy“ goal? What sonic advantage does it offer? Is there a problem with convergence of the MF, HF and UHF at the listeners seat or is it a myth to promote hifi agendas?
Horns are decade devices as a rule (with few exceptions). That is based on the geometry of the horn, not how wide band the driver is.

I like the concept of point source not because it's trendy but because it provides equally timed room reflections and a natural acoustical environment. And a larger sweet spot of time aligned source of sound.
In my 1st example there will have to be DSP delay on the tweeter.

Are they equally timed? Looking at most coaxial schemes, the voice coils are NOT in the same plane, not adjustable either. Pile on top the WRONG SIZE HORN that has the length of a transmission line at HF. Sounds like trouble to me... Maybe someone has a better access to magic than I do...
My experience with coax arrangements is that the sweet spot gets smaller and is even less smooth due to transmissionline effects. In the case of D'Appolito there is a great upper MF loss in the vertical plane if you are not in the "sweet spot"


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
Page 2 of 2 (28 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The “Dead Points of Live Sound”..  Confused...  Playback Listening  Forum     28  233318  05-14-2005
  »  New  Srajan, 6Moons, sex industry and sapphire horns..  Unless the objective is .......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  51629  07-11-2006
  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Cessaro new Loudspeaker...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     191  1364184  12-06-2006
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  435752  07-29-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1228571  08-03-2007
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