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03-17-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 21
Post ID: 24753
Reply to: 24750
Like live
Daniel, seeing your words describing needs for live sound, i seriously recommend to copy Klaus Speth' System in a first instance. You can go further after that. But that thing had it all, what anyone needs to feel the art become alive. I can ensure it is not EQed, just using honest simple analogue active XO, and still not having any serious coloration that would annoy even critical ears. I cant talk positive enough about that experience. The good news, hes not hiding any secrets. And it looks like you got the main ingredience ready for a copy. So you got tweeter and midrange, also having Goto for the lower half of the spectrum?? 
03-17-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Daniel
Germany
Posts 13
Joined on 03-11-2018
Post #: 22
Post ID: 24754
Reply to: 24753
ALIVE, not like live
"Like live" is a statement I really like to stay away from but seeing that someone else also misunderstood me there makes me feel I did a bad job describing my views on that. Last statement in that direction: live music and recorded music are two completely different things for me and I go to live shows for different reasons than I listen to music at home. Completely different. 
I don't have the space (or funds) for something like Klaus Speth's system. For now it will have to be a small 4 way with a homemade version of the Altec 828, cabinet volume and tuning matched to GPA 515C and a subwoofer to help a little where the hornloading of the 828 is gone.
03-17-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 23
Post ID: 24755
Reply to: 24754
Not so easy to differentiate
Hi Daniel, sorry yes i misunderstood you. But reading a bit what you guys mean... i must say Klaus' System encourages both in one. Exactly those words of like a cloud, alive, not from speakers, then his system is the first thing coming to my mind. Unfortunately i personally would say that the huge room had its vast contribution to that Smile Anyhow, Klaus had a small version adopted to his previous real estate conditions in a 20 squaremeter room: 
03-17-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 24
Post ID: 24756
Reply to: 24753
OK??
 Daniel wrote:
This is a bit of a childish "I'm right! - No, I'm right! - No, I'm right!" 'discussion'. I know that there are differences between acouctic live, amplified live and playback of a recording and never stated there wasn't or one could ever be mistaken for the other.
But I don't think we need to argue that certain systems fail to transport certain aspects of musical presentation. And some others fail a little less.
Daniel, I do not think that this is childish 'discussion' and I assure you that I am very far from a desire to convince you in anything. Generally, at this site people do not try to convince others and deeply individualistic approach is more suitable in here. I reacted to what I felt was appropriate and if you feel that it was not appropriate then it is fine. For one person “something” might be a deep philosophical postulation and for another person the very same “something” might be just a blabbering in open air.  The fact that certain systems fail or success to transport certain aspects of musical presentation has very little relation to what I was saying. I do feel that you did not “get” what I was advocated and it is fine…    
 martinshorn wrote:
Daniel, seeing your words describing needs for live sound, i seriously recommend to copy Klaus Speth' System in a first instance.
Here we go. Let me to bring a counterpoint to this. The best experience from Rachmaninoff Second Concerto, including multiple very fine live performance, I had approximately 10 years ago when I rented U-Hall truck and played Janies CD at the truck’ s stock system. So, following the Martinshorn’s recommendation if you, Daniel, want to get the best in sound reproduction then rent U-Hall truck. :-)

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 25
Post ID: 24759
Reply to: 24756
Lets focus on the measures
Come on guys, initial topic was the Goto measures. This is rare, you find max a few useless fragments, nothing serious. So getting back on track, the SG 16xx, 37xx, 500s etc etc please post the measures! Exciting, rare, appreciated! Youll generate thousands of clicks, this is not provided anywhere else.  Josh
03-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 26
Post ID: 24760
Reply to: 24734
Of course...
 martinshorn wrote:
Reminds me of the Goto statement "you shall not measure, you shall listen".
This is what people get when the do measurements not from exact listening position and eliminate room reflections from measurements.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Daniel
Germany
Posts 13
Joined on 03-11-2018
Post #: 27
Post ID: 24761
Reply to: 24760
Later, nerds...
The forum rules were probably a booby trap or I even made up the part that said that it was necessary  to give subjective sound impressions, which is bullshit in the first place anyways. My measurements of the SG-16 and Onken OS-5000T are useless anyways as my "listening room" isn't an anoechic chamber with an exact listening position.
03-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 28
Post ID: 24762
Reply to: 24761
Nerds? I did not see a lot of them around here…
 Daniel wrote:
The forum rules were probably a booby trap or I even made up the part that said that it was necessary to give subjective sound impressions, which is bullshit in the first place anyways. My measurements of the SG-16 and Onken OS-5000T are useless anyways as my "listening room" isn't an anoechic chamber with an exact listening position.
Daniel, I think you are a bit confused. There is no forum rules as far as I know. Your measurements, or whatever you measured, were not relevant in my view (which is why I did not followed the thread) as you did not measured from exact listening position. With TRA measurement outside of your listening position your subjective impressions can snot be related to your measurements. It has nothing to do with anarchic chambers or your use of "listening room" in quotes. Try to be feel offended in the situations when you do not exactly comprehend the essence of a subject.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 29
Post ID: 24763
Reply to: 24760
Learn to read
ah come on guys. Measures have to be understood properly. U can’t judge every tiny pixel. And also you cant say a tilt here will sound bright or dull, coz your room can change this. Ok. Doesn’t mean everything is upside down either. Doesn’t mean, if your driver dies at 5 and agressively rings at 7k , on your listening room it will suddenly twitter like bird from heaven till 40k. It is about tendencies. And i see that Goto has very old fashioned ball-cone phase plugs. Just like WE. That of course causes phase cancellation and the drop of high frequency as we can see. So Goto are for narrow bandwith only. It kind of forces the user to make more effort with the crossover. Possible reason for better sound. Also Goto does not squeeeze the spund through many slim sharp edged slits. Also possible... or, like its the magnet. However, certain things like tilt and Cutoff really depend on rhe horn only. And there is little value in individual measures. BUT, the top octave behavior, does the titan ring? Does the phase plug cancel? How hi can i go? - is reflected here. Sure, the microphone will add to >10kHz. So in a way the SG16 wont be shown perfect. Below 1k the room usually rules in distance. But it is about tendencies. Seeing more transparent about the goto engineering and consequences and possibilities and limits. So, i repeat myself, post the measures, show us what one can do with Goto (we don’t care how it sounds in ur livingroom!!!) - very appreciated!!Please share Smile  Josh 
03-28-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 30
Post ID: 24771
Reply to: 24763
Almost got them all
Actually.... searching very hard the web, you can find this:   
SG370 dia from inside: http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html  -  Measures you just provided   SG146 Measures were here already (just questionable reliability) : http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html   
SG505 response + impedance even...: http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html - now that is interesting, as the 505 is supposed to go as low as 100, at least in small horns till 300 for full power, you see hes already below 600 out of his comfort zone Smile  

SG160 : http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html   
 Now, that so far confirms dont listen but measure, coz they all sound amazing and measure like ...... dont want to say it even Smile
03-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 31
Post ID: 24772
Reply to: 24771
The SG146 Measures
With that Moscow guy it is not the question of his reliability but his sanity. I hope you understand that response he gets is rather a measuring of his horn then measuring his driver. He unfortunately neither intellectually (audio-wise) not psychologically not able to understand what he was measuring. I would not be surprised if he would be measuring from the position where his desk with computer sits or do multiple measurements from multiple positions. Another thing is his absolutely lock of understanding the subject tuning of driver primary resonance to throat resistance. When he popped up at this site I explained it to him but he acted like a typical Goto idiot insisting that Goto driver does not care about it because they are expensive. The reality is that no one care about the SG146 response besides two things: how far ups it goes (wish is less important) and how low it goes in context of a given horn. It is impossible to decouple the bottom of the response from the room response, let pretend we are taking about 50Hz horn. So, here is what the back-chamber tuning come to the play – you can actually see the gain separate from the room gain. I’ not even talking that tuning a driver resonance you can make it sound so much different at the bottom knee… 
 
Anyhow, do not be pay too much attention to that Moscow Moron – it is a very random result that very much objectively present his setting but not say very much what might be doe if an owner has more noble objective then to parade on Internet his buy of the week.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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