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   Home » Analog Playback» Holly Proscenium idiocy! (24 posts, 2 pages)
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07-19-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 21
Post ID: 19704
Reply to: 18821
Proscenium I,II,III ad infinitum....
I have heard the Proscenium II sounding good/allowing cartridge to sound good/sounding good in a system which for all I know could have sounded considerably better had it been exchanged for a Rega or somesuch, because the system was not my own and I've only spent an hour here and there with it. I can say with certainty that the TT did not sound bad, but I now see that I must have been delusional at the time because if the sequel to this unit sounds genuinely 50% better - so telling an indictment of audio reviewers and manufacturers ejaculating all their best adjectives far too early on in the game - and even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that the Proscenium III is at or near the "state of the art" as we are so often told, then surely 50% of "state of the art" would be anodyne at best, infernal at worst. Really, this backhanded damnation of the Proscenium II by its very own manufacturer is a tragic example of precisely why the pursuit of "high-end" audio is for most a self-perpetuating one, a pursuit cynically strung out by the audio pushers, and a pursuit as likely to bring the pursuer to a state of complete and lifelong satiety as heroin is to the heroin addict. That said, the heroin addict would perhaps seem to have a little more sense than the average audiophile, since at least he experiences bliss on a daily basis, rather than in some hypothetical future that only ever lasts for a week or two, just until he's once again told that whatever he just spent the price of a luxury car on is suddenly defunct due to the existence of some new, 50% superior iteration of what was last week unimpeachable.

de Charlus
07-20-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree

Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 22
Post ID: 19705
Reply to: 19704
Proscenium III is "state of the art" ....
.... the usual marketing blubber. The more expensive a High end Product is, the more superlatives you need to make it superior to anything else. You want the big bucks? You need a big mouth first.but we all know how this business runs. What amazes me until today is, that no one asks one of those 50% plus guys: "Hey Stupido, why didn't you hear in a former Demo that the Walker - or other Product - has serious deficits and needs some more brain to be up to the task the msrp suggests? Too stupid to analyze what you hear? Too stupid for understanding what you hear? Please explain the 50% Deafness the first time!"
No one does it. They are all, and I mean ALL, so ultra, super stupid that it is hard to believe. I mean the customers. You find those morons in the forums, the mother home from those is WorstBuyforum, here they are who masturbate in front of their altars and when you read their brainless comments about music reproduction, wear sunglasses (to avoid eye cancer).
And when someone writes some facts about those sonic wonders, all those fucking deaf idiots hate him, instead of trying to use the brain, they are afraid of loosing money when they sell their expensive toys. And interestingly, most "buyers" of expensive products have more interest to crawl into some Manufacturers / distributors ass instead of trying to understand what they hear. 
Sometimes you can read a interesting comment, but they are rare. And of course, those authors ( see Romy and a few others) got hate from all those morons who prefer to sign a check instead of opening the ears.Here is something from Audiogon

 Audiogon wrote:
.....the kiss of death....

In Analog we will find everything but in my opinion, lots of those units became a Boutique Character (expensive bottle, cheap fluid inside). All those expensive units have one in common (when we look back):
GREAT Reviews, lots of Hype and at the end of Day it was more or less nothing to write home about (sonically). 

Some examples?

Goldmund Reference
The Mother of Hype, but the moving Arm changes Azimuth in every groove, the table itself has a good soundstage, but details are all smeared AND it destroys every cantilever after some time.

Rockport Sirius III
The American Altar, but the Arm wire inside is so stiff that the Arm can not track the inner 3 tracks properly, it skips, the only way out is to use a very heavy cartridge, but the cantilever will be destroyed very soon. And the sound is ultra thin, completely lifeless without any body. Great engineering, missing the sonic target by a mile.

A super expensive German Turntable 30k+, endless rave and hype and during its demo at the High End Show the bearing broke. A typical example for Boutique. Now they are available for 1/5th price, company is out of business.

Framers Finest. I listened to it 3 times, professionally set up from the Importer. 2x it was defect and the 3 time the connected Phonostage had a problem (or the Arm wire, Phonamp, Cartridge). I always said "Mono IS interesting" Anyway, that Company is also more or less out of Business what Australians wrote me. Buy replacement Parts NOW.

The Mother of of all Airliners. Super, super expensive at that time, Hype endless, bloody knees from Audiophiles - from kneeling in front of it - was normal, even more expensive with optional remote VTA....but it never worked properly. The Airflow in some areas was not constant, so..well, you can imagine...

The Mother of a "Game-Changer" Product, defect bearing while RMAF but some wrote, even with that defect bearing it sounded fantastic (great or?) and in some discussions in Seattle area some buyers wrote how happy they are now "being a member of the Club." A pity that the thread about was deleted :-)
No knowledge (from the whole Chain Manufacturer-Distributor-User) about shipping, no knowledge about platter mechanism, no damping was a result of that damage and honestly, buying a product from "Engineers" who have absolutely no idea about technical connections ...well, good luck.

Thorens Reference

The Audiophile Answer from Germany to Arnold Schwarzenegger.Heavy and it will show every visitor "Hey, I am something serious"In real life you can get the identical sonic quality from every 2-3k$ turntable
today. But the motor management is good.

Wood Arms
Well, let's face the truth, a piece of wood at a string or 'in long' for 16K$ has to be touched from God AND made from some ultra secret, mystic material, stolen from the NASA...Energy transfer? What is THAT, we want Emotion... well, Boutique,...Geometry? Pardon, WHAT? The best bearing is no bearing... blubber...Of course you need a 12k+++ Cartridge to get the full sonic impact the Arm is able to deliver

Well, even after 30 years they find revolutionary 'improvements'...in a way the ARC Company in analog. To catch the same customer again and again, that's brilliant. Sonically? When you want a different sound, all you have to do is to open the window...

Of course, all owners, no matter from what expensive product, will write that their unit is an exception and is working like a charm etc. But let's face the facts: It is the money what counts. The wealthy Audiophile likes to show others how clever he is and what expensive units he owns, he wants the Respect to be accepted as an "Experienced Audiophile" but at the end of day, he also wants money when he sells that Sonic Wonder. Who writes "Yes, I have that T3F, Rockport, ...and it is really inferior, but I like it?"

No one.

Is there a way out?
Of course.
Let's visit Dover and steal his Turntable :-)  

Of course, that writer has now more enemies than before. Most of them are too stupid to understand anything at all, but they don't like to read something like that. For whatever reasons...


Kind Regards
07-20-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 23
Post ID: 19706
Reply to: 19705
....IV, V....
And there I was being sarcastic, but I find that the Proscenium is already onto not IV, but V already. So, if things have continued pro rata, IV will be 50% better than III, and V will be 50% better than IV, with the consequence of the present iteration being a whole 150% better than the mark II. Won't previously happy Proscenium II owners be distraught to find that their beloved TT is so anachronistic all of a sudden? I have to say, though, that as a business model this ever-elongating upgrade path is a masterstroke, especially when one considers that there's precious little as fragile as the ego of the "audiophile" who realizes that his "state of the art" component has morphed into a dinosaur before his very eyes.

de Charlus
07-20-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 498
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 24
Post ID: 19710
Reply to: 19706
MkII idiocy
Making my little research on vibration isolation, I came across those fantastic pictures here
of how Proscenium suspension is made:


I've always thought that he uses some custom-made pneumatics,
but those pictures reveal the thruth: these are just the standard SLM series
pneumatics, with manually trimmed base plate (!) and packed in shiny
cylinders! There is of course nothing wrong in using well proven
industrial solution (I believe such units are in the Vibraplanes, I'll also
employ them in my rack), however one has to know how to use it:
1) the big unit is probably the 300lbs one; why the hell use it here?
pneumatics like to operate at their max capacity for best isolation,
why shooting in owns foot?
2) the pressure in the pneumatics shuold be adjusted to the load: roughly
%max load =%max psi, to keep the resonant point as low as possible.
This is a normal published data (e.g. here http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newportcorp/resource2011/#/1110),
so all the "air pressure revelation" is simply a gross ignorance of the manufacturer
and lack of understanding of very basic laws of physics (more air=more stiff=higher fres.)

I don't even want to look into MkIII, IV, V,...


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