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04-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 10405
Reply to: 10404
Many options are available
fiogf49gjkf0d

 serenechaos wrote:
Yes, tapped horns are lower efficiency, mine are 105 dB (not 108 - 110 dB like the rest of the system). 

Actually the 105dB efficiency is very good efficiency and with this efficiency any 20W-30W DSET amp would do fine, unless you have over 1700 cub feet listening room

 serenechaos wrote:

I don't even KNOW that SET or Class A is automatically appropriate for tapped horns...
The problem is not with “appropriate” but with debility of most of SS PP amps to do proper bass, at least I was not able to come across…. 
 serenechaos wrote:
Something like op amp driven PP in class AB might even work better, for all I know...  But if I do conclude the need for a hi-pass filter, I'll definitely need to talk to someone who knows more about such things than I do... 

You might look at the amps with feedback, it would be better for damping and you would be able to stick an additional filtration into feedback. So, you might have 12dB in open loop, for instance on grids, and 12dB from closed loop… many options are available

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-05-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 10433
Reply to: 10333
Here is a good tapped horn reads by John Hasquin
fiogf49gjkf0d

This is the text that John posted a few years back at Triode Mafia. John allowed me to post it here warning that he have learned more about tapped horn since then and hat his opinion might have changed since then.

-- ********************************************************

As a nice start, I would highly recommend reading Tom Danley’s white paper on what tapped horn technology is. It is a very interesting concept. Might I add that it works quite well.

Tapped horn white paper --> http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf

If for some reason this link doesn’t work for you, just go to the technical download area of Danley Sound Labs.

It is also very useful to read the pending international patent.

Tapped horn patent application --> http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2007109075&F=0

The short version is that a tapped horn uses the secondary side of a woofer to fill in the dips in the horns response due to an undersized mouth. This is done by aligning the phasing properties of the horn in relation to the T/S parameters of the woofer. As the wavelength of the note played changes, so does the phase relationship of the woofer in regards to the horn. At higher frequencies, the horn only makes use of the front side of the woofer cone. As frequency goes down, the back side of the woofer cone progressively starts to contribute as additional driving surface area for the horn. It’s like having a variable woofer cone, but it is done automatically as frequency and phase changes. Pure genius in my opinion. Don’t worry, its easy to design for.

Before I go into how I designed my tapped horns I would like to touch on some very important things that separate tapped horns from conventional horns. I will break this down point-by-point. I will point out both positive and negative aspects of the tapped horn. I will continue to add to this thread as I have more to add. I hope you guys find this interesting and it motivates you to build your own horns.

1.) The primary reason behind using a tapped horn is its size. It is now possible to make a horn extremely small in relation to the lowest frequency it will play. For all practical purposes, you only need a mouth large enough to allow you to mount your woofer. That’s it, it can be quite small.

2.) The tapped horn does not suffer from group delay as bass reflex and conventional front loaded horns. Group delay is the primary culprit that causes “slow” bass. If you have ever heard bass that sounds like it is half a beat behind, you have heard the effects of group delay. The tapped horn avoids this by virtue of its design. Because the backside of the woofer is in close proximity of the mouth, time of flight for the sound is the same as a direct radiator. Due to the air volume inside a tapped horn being much less than a conventional horn, it can quickly pressurize this air and keep proper phase with the back side of the woofer. This has allowed me to finally time align my horns the way I wished I could. Integration is much better than my old 37Hz subwoofer horns. Not to mention the tapped horns are ¼ the size.

3.) One of the most magnificent benefits of tapped horns comes again from the woofer being in close proximity of the mouth. I have come to realize that this can contribute to much more interesting sonic textures. The tapped horn allows the higher harmonic content of instruments to come through. In a conventional front loaded horn, all the folds act as a muffler and acoustically attenuate these harmonics. What I have found is these harmonics are important in reconstructing a convincing field of depth. The realism is greatly enhanced with these harmonics present. A very interesting effect. This works well in my 40Hz tapped horns because the horn’s overall sensitivity is within a dB or two of the woofer’s own raw sensitivity. I’m using B&C Speakers 8PE21 woofers with 98dB sensitivity. The horns overall sensitivity is 100dB. The combined high sensitivity with the detailed light weight cones is capable of resolving the complex textures involved. In addition, the light cones help control over shoot and stored energy smearing of the signal. You may be thinking that the tapped horn is not providing much loading being it is only doing 100dB and the woofer was already 98dB. Here’s the deal, high efficiency woofers have a falling low frequency response. The 8PE21’s sensitivity is only 70dB at 40Hz, while in the tapped horn it is doing 100dB. That’s 30dB of gain on the low end. This type of gain is hard to come by even in a conventional front loaded horn.

4.) Now for a few issues you must consider with tapped horns. The most pressing issue to me is distortion. While the tapped horns still have much less distortion than a bass reflex, infinite baffle, or acoustic suspense subwoofer, it still has more than a conventional front loaded. Let me explain why. In a conventional front loaded horn you usually have a rear chamber that has its volume tuned to resonate the woofer at the horn’s flare cutoff. This is all part of annulling the throat reactance to get the lowest frequency output from the horn. Due to the design nature of the tapped horn, there is no rear chamber. In a tapped horn you must use the back side of the woofer in a phase additive manner to fill in the dips in response. Since there is no back chamber acting as an air spring to help control cone motion, the result is more even order distortion. This is because the uneven excursion (dumax) becomes a little pronounced in a tapped horn. When the pressure wave inside the horn is phase additive, it pushes on the cone, when the pressure wave is phase subtractive, it pulls on the cone and exaggerates uneven excursion. So, how bad is the even order distortion of the tapped horn? Well, I don’t have exact numbers, but from all indications and past experience, I would say if all things were equal (but size of the horns of course) a conventional horn would have 1.5% distortion, then the tapped horn would be in the neighborhood of 8% - 10%. That does look bad, but it is almost all even order harmonics. Remember people have been living with fart machines for subwoofer for a long time. Most home theater subwoofers push 20% or more distortion at high excursion.

5.) Distortion is not all gloom and doom for the tapped horn. If we are smart we can still design a tapped horn with distortion almost as low as a conventional front loaded horn with a rear chamber. The way around this is to use push-pull woofers. The two woofers share a common chamber that feeds the horn throat. One woofer is reverse mounted and also has its polarity reversed. This sets up a push-pull pair that will cancel the uneven dumax of the woofers. It will also cancel even order harmonics just the same as it happens in push-pull amplifiers. In addition, it linearizes excursion cased Bl fade. As one woofer’s coil begins to leave the gap, the other drives deeper.

6.) Having built both push-pull and single woofer tapped horns; I can say the push-pull pair is the way to go. The sound difference can be heard if you listen to recordings with very dry and tight bass. The even order distortion of the single woofer horn rounds and smoothes the attack of the bass notes. It is not the end of the world, but well worth the extra effort to design with a push-pull pair.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 10435
Reply to: 10405
More thoughts on tapped horns
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am adding to what Romy just posted for me. See the below for more information about tapped horns.

Rgs, JLH

*******************************************************************


So, what does a tapped horn look like? There are several ways to fold, but I chose this method because it was simple and easy to construct. It also blends more with today’s modern tall skinny speaker look.

There are no braces in the above picture. The below picture is the same horn with a brace that runs the full length of the horn. This was just enough bracing for the horn.

Below I’m putting the woofer in through the access panel. I like the way this tapped horn turned out because the woofer is hidden from sight, and the access panel is in the back.

Here are the input parameters for the horn in David McBean’s Hornresp program.

And the predicted response

The frequency peaks above 165Hz are not there in real life. The horn’s folding could be filtering some of it out, or Hornresp is doing some squirrelly computations that don’t exist.

More later

Rgs, John

05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 10436
Reply to: 10405
Continuing the tapped horn ideas
fiogf49gjkf0d

Here are some real world measurements made at the 2007 NYC sub shoot out. The distortion numbers and characteristics should help us understand the difference between tapped horn distortion and conventional front loaded horn distortion.

The first distortion graph is the Danley TH-115. This is a tapped horn that uses a single high excursion 15” woofer. Testing was done at 100Wrms input. You’ll notice that distortion is in the 7% to 13.5% range for most of the frequency. However, most people, including myself, would describe Danley bass as being very clean and low. Danley bass tends to sound like it needs to be turned up because the perception is that it lacks the upper harmonic distortion that our brain interprets as loudness. This is one reason why some people prefer direct radiating Scoop horns. Scoops can “sound” louder because of their high distortion in the mid-bass/kick drum range.


 

 

The second graph is the EM Acoustic MSE-118 subwoofer horn. This is a more conventional front loaded subwoofer horn that uses a single 18” woofer. It has a sealed and tuned rear chamber to help control cone motion and the low frequency tuning. The testing setup was the same as the TH-115. The thing you’ll notice is the distortion stays below 4% through most of the frequency range. As expected, as you near the flare cutoff of the horn, distortion increases very quickly. Even the TH-115 is not immune (See above graph for TH-115) to this.


More discussion to come on these graphs and what they mean.

Rgs, John

05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 10437
Reply to: 10405
More tapped horn stuff
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have been doing some work with integration of tapped horns. I have discovered some interesting things that are not being discussed on any other forums. I’ll start at the beginning so a full picture will be clear.

At first I placed the tapped horn such that its woofer was time aligned with my large tractrix horn’s woofer. I found that this gave reasonable results. However, I felt that the pacing between the tractrix mid-bass horn and the tapped horn wasn’t quite right. I proceeded to make exact distance measurements so both horns were time aligned per the center section of their voice coils. The effect this had was interesting. The bass range from about 50Hz and down, was excellent. However, something was still off about the 70Hz to 100Hz range. There was a strange phasiness to the sound. What to do?

I stopped for a moment and started to think about what was actually happening. Reading back through my notes on tapped horns, I believed I found my answer. The main principle that allows the tapped horn to work involves its varying phase properties. In the low frequencies the phase relationship is such that the front and back side of the cone is in a phase additive mode. Therefore, both sides of the woofer are contributing to the horn. As frequency climbs, the back side of the cone progressively goes out of phase. This gradually reduces the cone’s back side contribution to the horn. What I believe was happening is the phase change of the tapped horn was having an unexpected interaction with my mid-bass horn. This is why I could only get perfect integration over a very short frequency range. Great, what am I going to do now?

Well, after thinking some more, I decided that I could still have proper time alignment, but change the phase relationship between the tapped horn and my mid-bass horn. I did this by keeping the time of flight distance along an arc in reference to the listening position. I then moved the tapped horn along this arc until the two horns stopped interfering with one another. This worked like a charm. Instead of being right next to the mid-bass horns, the tapped horns are now about 2 and ½ feet to the outside of each mid-bass horn. Sound location is not an issue because the tapped horns are only covering material below 80Hz, so they are very non-directional. Problem solved. So, far this is the best sound I have had in my system. I’ve got the dynamics I’ve always loved, but have better integration than before.

Rgs, John
05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 10438
Reply to: 10405
This was a short lived horn - Banned from the house by the wife
fiogf49gjkf0d

I have drawn up my 20Hz subwoofer horn in Google SketchUp 3D. This horn is more for home theater than for music. My smaller 40Hz loaded with B&C Speakers 8PE21’s is more musical and articulate. The 20Hz tapped horn is loaded with two Tang Band W8-740C woofers. These are high excursion heavy cone woofers. They have quite high Bl factor which makes them good candidates for horn loading for low frequencies. The woofers are arranged in a push-pull configuration with one woofer reverse mounted and wired in opposite polarity. This arrangement linearizes the excursion components of the woofers and cancels nearly all even order distortion.

The first picture is the side profile with the sides still off so you can see how it is folded. If you look over to the left top of the woofer chamber, you can just see where the throat opening is into the horn path.

The next picture is a closer look at the woofer chamber and horn throat. The entire horn is of the constant width design. There are no wired or difficult angles and tappers to cut.

The third picture is a look from under the horn. You can actually see the throat opening into the horn path from the woofer’s view point.

The last picture is looking into the mouth of the horn with the side panels on. In the finished horn, I have removable panels to access the woofers from each side. In this picture, the right side woofer would drop into the chamber with its magnet inside the chamber. For the left side, the woofer would mount with its cone facing the chamber and its magnet sticking out toward the horn mouth.

How does it sound? The best way to describe it is clean and subtle. If the gain on the power amp is adjusted properly, then it is down right acoustically invisible. It does not let its presence known until it is called on. It adds a very nice tactile sense to movies and enhances the experience greatly. I would have to say it is a success.

Physical size is 16” wide X 17” deep X 65.5” tall. The horn path length is just a hair over 19 feet.

Here is the HornResp predicted response and input parameters.

As I guessed, room gain in my place begins at 38Hz, so the actual response is completely flat out to 16Hz. Sensitivity is about 97dB with 1 watt input. It doesn’t take much power to get this thing going.

I would encourage anyone to try a tapped horn. With tools like HornResp, it is pretty easy to design a tapped horn.

Rgs, John

05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 10439
Reply to: 10405
Setting up tapped horn for proper phase
fiogf49gjkf0d

Above I was discussing the new integration process I used to mate the tapped horns with the rest of the system. Below is a graphic to help explain the listening arc. I just moved the tapped horns along an equal-distant arc until the phasing of the tapped horn agreed with the mid-bass horns. The equal-distant arc is time aligned at the voice coils of the woofers in both the tapped horn and horns.

Rgs, John

05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 10440
Reply to: 10405
Some FAQs I've heard about tapped horns
fiogf49gjkf0d

I have received some questions and criticism about tapped horns. In order to spread a better understand of tapped horns, I’ll restate the questions and try to answer them.

1.) The mouth of the tapped horn is too small to be useful.

Answer: A small mouth size is exactly one of the reasons to use a tapped horn. You no longer have to have a horn the size of a refrigerator to enjoy clean and powerful horn bass. The tapped horn gets around this with its special phasing properties. Usually when you have a mouth that is too small, the result is a very rippled response. See below graphic.

These are the same horn and driver. The only difference is the mouth was made too small on the first one. Their length is ¼ wavelength at 40Hz. The ripple peaks in the first horn occur at harmonics of the ¼ wavelength resonance. In the tapped horn the rear side of the woofer is very close to the mouth. This distance is too short to be acoustically visible to the horn. However, as frequency raises, the rear side of the woofer progressively begins to come more in-phase with the horn. The effect this has is the radiating surface of the woofer (Sd) also progressively gets larger until is becomes 2 X Sd. Because of the increase in driving Sd, the woofer is able to completely fill in the ripple valley in the response. This is a wonderful thing!

2.) The length of the tapped horn is too short to do what you say.

Answer: The tapped horn does not define its length like a conventional horn. In a conventional front loaded horn the length is defined as the distance from the throat to the mouth. This is not the case with the tapped horn. Since you “tap” into the horn down from a closed throat, this distance gets added twice. This is because the sound travels from the “tap” point toward the closed throat, and then gets reflected back down the horn toward the mouth. In addition, the distance from the back side of the woofer to the mouth also gets added to the over all length. So, a tapped horn is acoustically longer than it would first appear. With a tapped horn, all these sections just need to add up to approximately ¼ wavelength of the low frequency of interest.

3.) The tapped horn suffers from cavity resonances. That’s what all those peaks are above 150Hz.

Answer: The tapped horn suffers no more from resonances than a conventional folded front loaded horn. In any folded horn you have to deal with 90 and 180 degree bends, and the resonances associated with their ½ wavelength cancellations. This is just normal life with a folded horn. It is possible to build a straight unfolded front horn and avoid all this. However, you better have a very large room and a very forgiving wife. It is completely impractical for 95% of people to have a straight front loaded bass horn.

Actually, you can use the ½ wavelength cancellations to your advantage with the tapped horn. You can model it in HornResp and see where the first high frequency peak occurs. Now just design the horn to have a fold that makes the distance between the fold and the mouth or throat ½ wavelength. This will cancel the peak and then some. Lemonade from lemons! It is also important to remember that the peaks HornResp shows for the tapped horn are exaggerated. I have measured and found the peaks to be at least half the size as calculated from HornResp. In addition, these peaks occur outside of the frequency band of interest. You should not be using a bass horn much above 80Hz anyway. It becomes too directional above 80Hz in my opinion.

Rgs, John

05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 10441
Reply to: 10405
Benefits of using a compression chamber on push-pull tapped horns.
fiogf49gjkf0d
There are at least three benefits of using a compression chamber in a tapped horn design.

1.) When using push-pull woofers with a compression chamber second order distortion is cancelled. This effect is very audible. You must hear it to understand.

2.) The air volume in the compression chamber can help flatten the response without resorting to adding inductors. On my dual W8-740 tapped horn, the response was flatter with the compression chamber.

3.) The large air volume in the compression chamber acts as an air spring which can help protect the woofer’s cone from high throat compression ratios. I’ve blown up my fair share of woofers. I’ve trashed some B&C 8PS21 woofers in a conventional single woofer tapped horn; blew a hole right through the cone. However, in another push-pull tapped horn using the same woofers I’ve had no problems and it has a higher compression ratio!

I am very certain about the air chamber serving to protect the woofers. With less than 260W into one of my 8PS21 tapped horns I blew a hole through the cone. I then redesigned for a dual woofer setup. I started the redesign by keeping all the path lengths the same, but doubling the areas. I then arranged the woofers in push-pull with an air chamber. After much simulating, I actually had to reduce the throat area to get the smoothest response. Therefore, my throat compression ratio went up. Once I built it I was able to put about 600W into the push-pull tapped horn before I had to stop due to high SPLs. After inspection there was no damage to the woofers. I don’t know of any other way to be more convincing then that.

Rgs, JLH
05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 10442
Reply to: 10405
Non-linear problems with single woofer tapped horns. Push-pull is the answer
fiogf49gjkf0d
Take a look at the below Dumax Report on the Dayton Titanic Mk III subwoofer.

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-404dumax.pdf

Of course this is not the woofer I used, but the asymmetry seen in this report is very illustrative of most woofers on the market. Even the best pro sound woofers have a degree of asymmetry. Since the motor’s ability to control the cone is not symmetrical, this leads to even order distortion. However, when you use woofers in push-pull with a common chamber; the chamber acts as an acoustical summation device. The suspension non-linearity and the asymmetrical drive get canceled. Where the two woofer’s motor strength differs, the net result is an average of the strengths (Green line). See below graphics.

From original report




Superimposed and flipped to show non-linearity – Green line shows result of summation



Notice how the Bl non-linearity begins at only 3mm of cone travel. Notice how Kms non-linearity begins at only 7mm of cone travel.

This is the best I can explain this from a technical stand. Subjectively, I would not consider using anything but push-pull for “subwoofer” applications. However, I am willing to use single woofers for mid-bass and higher frequencies where dual woofers are not practical. But never use a tapped horn above 150Hz, its not good up there. It all depends on your application. Everyone’s situation is different.

Rgs, JLH
05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 10443
Reply to: 10333
Here is some tapped horns read by Tom Danley.
fiogf49gjkf0d

From: Tom Danley
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 5:56 PM
To: Romy
Subject: From Tom Danley

Hi Romy

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=10359#10359

I hope you don’t mind the intrusion, it was suggested I could answer your questions.

“Still, I did not hear the Danley’s tapped horns and I have no idea what he is trying to do.”

Well I can explain and hopefully it will make sense.

When you make a bass horn “too small’ and by that I mean a mouth that is significantly less than a wl in circumference in full space and by making it a quarter wavelength long instead of ½ wl., you have a number of tradeoffs.

By making the horn shorter, only a quarter wave long at the low cutoff, you prevent the system from having high electroscoustic efficiency  conversely you’ll find that the short bass horn does reach efficiency until it’s about an octave above low cutoff, again where it is a half wl or greater.  The classical horn, needs to have the driver at the motional maxima, which begins at a half wavelength.

Also, one finds the response of such a horn typically droops off instead of being “flat” down to the low corner.  When the mouth is made smaller in area, then one finds the horn’s modes become increasingly revealed by the reduced radiation resistance (which fully damps them in a larger horn).

When you make the horn mouth a convenient size (too small), then you have a response curve with a large peak defining the low corner, with a deep valley then another peak with a series of smaller and closer together peaks after that.

It is the magnitude of these peaks and dips which define how small you can make a horn.

Acoustically, what you see is where there are peaks, there is the maximum acoustic loading on the driver, the point where the motion and impedance is minimum.

Where the deep valley is, there is little load on the cone, motion and impedance are maximum.

The quarter wavelength bass horn can’t be efficient down low because the driver’s parameters that are ideal for operation where it is ½ wl long or longer, are totally different than those needed for the quarter wave mode which is a motion minimum instead of motion maximum (1/2 wl)

The Tapped horn idea began when I was thinking about the quarter wave length reflection that places a notch in the response of the side mounted drivers (as used in the synergy horns), that notch defines where the usable upper response corner is.

I wondered, “what happens if I substitute a source of the opposite phase for that reflection”  Having that source already available in the drivers rear radiation, I made a computer model.

It took a long time before I had anything I felt like building, but occasionally I would see predictions of a nice sensitivity.

The Tapped horn idea is that you use a driver which can efficiently drive the quarter wavelength mode which defines the low corner. This driver is too massive for efficient horn loading normally.

At the low corner, the front driver is approaching 90 degrees out of phase from the radiation at the throat.  The acoustic load is nearly entirely on the throat side of the driver at the low cutoff.  As the frequency climbs into the range where one has the deep valley, now the shorter wavelength means the front and rear radiation are separated by 180 degrees of path length and now are additive in the horn.

“When everything is right” (the horn dimensions and driver parameters), then where the valley was, is now flat, filled in by the added radiation load on the cone.

Compared to a vented box, these typically have about half the group delay for a given low corner and they often have a roll off slope between a vented and sealed box.

In a conventional horn, one normally sizes the rear volume to put the Fb somewhat above the system low corner. The drivers suspension spring is in parallel with the box compliance or spring.  By choosing the horns hyperbolic or shape, one can adjust the acoustic mass the horn presents to the driver as you approach the low corner. The proper relationship between the two results in “reactance annulling” which lowers the low corner to its lowest value.

In the Tapped horn, the acoustic mass in the horn also exists but with no rear volume, the drivers suspension spring does the entire job. As a result the ideal Fs for a Tapped horn is usually the better part of an octave above the low corner.

Anyway, like a normal horn, once you have “all” the parameters right, they can work very well and provide flat smooth response, like a much much larger horn..

I don’t know if there are home bass horn systems that are measured in half space 1W/1M or have real response curves at all, but here are a couple tapped horns which  one could compare to.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/TH%20215%20Spec%20Sheet.PDF

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/TH%2050%20Spec%20Sheet.PDF

Granted these are made for movie theaters and large-scale sound and are big and ugly but the up side is they are absolutely loafing when used in the home.

On the other hand, there are some hifi “horn people” who are finding our stuff nice in the home. 

You might find the SH-50 interesting; it can reproduce a square wave from about 260Hz to about 2900Hz, a span covering all three sets of drivers.  There are no lobes at crossover or anywhere else and appears to be one source in time and space with nearly constant directivity down to it’s mouth dimension governed pattern loss.

In large spaces the rooms problems are much more formidable, hence all the focus on directivty and no interference between sources etc. the time coherency seemed like an obvious target which as taken over 10 years to zero in on.

Something you may have noticed too, as you make a speaker better and better in time, it becomes harder and harder to estimate how far away it is, if you stand in front of it with your eyes closed.   What I am hearing consistently is that a system, which does not deliver audible clues, that “shout” where it is in depth when listened to singly, provides a more faithful center image and stereo image.

Anyway, don’t want to ramble, hope this helps explain the Tapped horn.

You may post this if you wish.

Best,

Tom Danley

Try a couple of these outdoor uncompressed two channel recordings on your horn system, go to the bottom of the page here;

Play softly at first, NO compression, large dynamic range, deep bass on the fireworks recording.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/technical%20downloads.html


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 10450
Reply to: 10443
The Iolanta Syndrome, me and the tapped horns
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, be afraid to get what you wish people say and it is exactly what happens in this thread: last week I expressed curiosity about the tapped horns and today I have more information about them than I wished.  I appreciate John, Robert, Tom and others for sharing this thoughts and experience about the tapped horns. I print all of it out (I do not like read from screen) and carefully read it a few times. I would like to express my view on the subjects.

I know horn installations, I know what to do with them, I know drivers and I know how different design decisions impact results. In many instances I do not have experience with a particular design decision but my personal familiarity with similar design decision gives me an opportunity to a very high degree to predict the result that people get from unknown to me installations.  Being able in some cases to correlate my predictions with the actual afterwards listening I was always please how accurate my forecasts were. It is very far from ego statements but just recitation of the facts. What is important to understand is that in all cases of my experimentations, evaluation  or prediction there is my own personal experience and deep familiarity how my own listening awareness reacts to the given design decisions or the associative  design decisions.

In case of the tapped horns I feel very different as I have absolutely no, even associative experience how this type of the solution my sound subjectively. Therefore, reading the observation to others I have no tangible feeling behind them using words. I have no doubts that tapped horn would hit the SPL numbers and the LF equalization curve that were named but it hardly give me any idea about Sound or how it might sound. If someone knows any “interesting” installations with tapped horns in New England then let me know and I would not mind to familiarize myself. At this point I do not have any expectations or understanding about the tapped horns sound. Sure I understand how it works but it kind of reminds me something that I usually call the Iolanta Syndrome.  Iolanta was a Danish girl from Hertz’s “King Rene’s Daughter” (or Tchaikovsky’s opera with the same name)  who has been blind from birth and did not know about her blindness as no one in her father kingdom was allowed to talk with  Iolanta about light, colors and sight)…

Anyhow, from what I read so far I think my doubtfulness and my natural presumption of negativity (fewer disappointments) would be divided into two directions. What I do not like in the tapped horn idea is not the “tappedness" itself (something that I do not know yet if it is good or bad) but rather the horn “foldedness”.  John said: “The tapped horn suffers no more from resonances than a conventional folded front loaded horn.”  That is good but I hate the folded front loaded horns as I feel that the condom of resonance chamber in the wave pass impact sound too unforgivingly. So, would it be possible to separate the idea of “tapped horn” with the idea of “folder horns”. How about to have straight “tapped horn”? We are taking about the long horn but look at the mouth of the John’s tapped horn. In the long horns the destructive part is a huge moth but if we have no big mouth then we have virtually a long narrow pipe…

OK, let me to share with you the visualization that I have.  Would you fill that THIS idea of the use of the straight tapped horn makes sense for you? The idea is to have a long and narrow pipe, perhaps suspended above the main speakers and running across the whole presentation filed. The pipe is divided internally into two separate independent sections: one runs right and another run left channel. I did not think yet how it might be implement but if the tapped horn do sound OK then I think what I propose might a VERY cool solution to have a straight tapped horn with very low frequency (the bigger room the longer pipe), with practically no valuable footprint?


Straight_Tapped_Horn.JPG

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 241
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 33
Post ID: 10452
Reply to: 10450
Counting the drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
Fantastic idea, but then you would need two drivers per channel, no?
05-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 10455
Reply to: 10405
A slight variation
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy,

     I like your idea. However, I would caution you on having the outlet of the one side firing backwards. One of the things that is not talked about with tapped horns is they are more directional than a normal subwoofer. They do not excite the entire room with omnidirectional sound. If you had one firing forward and one backward it would probably screw up the sound. A slight variation that would be better is to have both tapped horns exit on their side so you can aim them both in one direction.

     Your double tapped horn idea will work if both woofers are the same and they are wired in parallel. It is interesting because instead of each woofer using its own front and back side, it uses the other woofer's front or back side to complete the phasing that makes the tapped horn work. Very good thinking.

05-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 10464
Reply to: 10455
A trap of trapped horns? An attempt of groundless accusations.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 JLH wrote:
One of the things that is not talked about with tapped horns is they are more directional than a normal subwoofer. They do not excite the entire room with omnidirectional sound.

 John, 

this is serious drawback I my book, even though you told before that the tapped horns become non-direction below 80Hz. Despite I do not argue that you might have the targeted SPL level I do not know how useful would be this SPL if it does not couples with room.

 Any LF acoustic system has two SPL levels: the SPL of pressure and the SPL of tone. (People do not talk about it as this is an absolutely alien concept for audio people. The unfortunate who sell far-machines to audio morons did not pre-sell and did not implant this issue into the feeble minds of the audio hoodlums and thankfully I write about it cryptically and marketing industry idiots do “get” it). With many LF solutions that I do not appreciated the pressure rises faster than tone. The pressure also reduces with different speed in relation to tone. It is not the attack and decay or room reverberation decay - it is a different subject. It has more to do with heating the correct SPL number and with having us as the listeners the practical benefits from specific pitch in musical information that exposes itself at given SPL. I wrote about it before, impaling that there are some listening techniques that allow differentiate the SPL pressure and SPL of tone.

So, in what you say about tapped horns it sound to me as the tapped horns do have the problem with pressure vs. tone.  It was very much expected by me, let me to explain why. There is a pattern in the pressure vs. tone subject that I observe. Being familiar with many many many LF solutions and implementation I was able to observe that the targeted lowest frequency has to be in accordance with lower frequency radiation surface. There are zillion solutions how can get more bass from smaller exerting surface, most of them would do right pressure SPL. However, the more misbalance between the size of the “exerting surface” and pressure SPL the more we have pressure SPL rise faster than tone SPL, I can bring as evidence very many famous models . BTW, this pattern is reversible: with higher targeted lowest frequency the pattern works compliantly and this explains why in some cases the pressure SPL marks let say 100Hz but the tone SPL impressers a listener as it was 40Hz.

So, with tapped horns we are in very disadvantaged situation to begin with as we have very harrow radiation hole and very low targeted lowest frequency for the size of this hole. This is in a way a recipe for “pressure SPL vs. tone SPL” disaster.  What I would propose you is trying to use the tapped horns intentionally non-directional with intentional 3-5msec delay. You might for instance try to reversed you LF listening arc and turn your highly  directional tapped horns in opposite direction from you listing spot, letting the tapped horns to work “off the wall”.  If your upperbass channel is good enough then it might be interesting. In particularly it might be interesting to play in THAT configuration with low pass on the tapped horns as it will not be only moderate the frequency but also the virtual delay. There are some further tricks that you might do in this work “off the wall” configuration: you might put in the end of your room, right at the bouncing wall a subtraction channel but this is another subject….

Again, all of it juts my thinking on the subject that is NOT based upon the tapped horns experience. Sure, sitting in the same room, listening the same inhalation and comparing notes would be more productive…

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 10465
Reply to: 10464
Tapped horns can be made to sound many ways.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 Any LF acoustic system has two SPL levels: the SPL of pressure and the SPL of tone.



Ahhh! Very good Romy. I don't recall you talking about Pressure and Tone SPL before. The tapped horn can be designed any 3 ways. It can be balanced, tone heavy, or pressure heavy. The Tang Band push-pull tapped horn is pressure heavy and is best used below 60Hz. The 8PE21 tapped horn is tone heavy and light in pressure. The most balanced tapped horn I built was one using a B&C Speaker 12PS100 woofer. Since I have built several different kinds of tapped horns, I've now kind of have a feel for what they will behave like. It is worth saying that your room will also determine how balanced the tapped horn should be. Larger rooms need to be a little more pressure heavy so by the time the room is properly pressurized, the tone is present. If the tone comes forward too soon, then the tapped horn becomes fatiguing to listen to. On the other hand, there is nothing more boring than a tapped horn that has no tone SPL.

Even so, the bass that the tapped horn makes is still more directional than a fart-machine subwoofer. You can steer the bass where you want it. I see this as an advantage over other kinds of bass.

Rgs, John

05-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 10469
Reply to: 10465
Testing the search functionality: some useful reading
fiogf49gjkf0d

 JLH wrote:
I don't recall you talking about Pressure and Tone SPL before.

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=3675  

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I know this effect but if it happen with bass horns then I do not call it “"pulsating room effect" but I rather call it “+1dB effect”. Some bass horns being placed in their rooms increase the density of pressure faster then the density of sound. It is bizarre concept of mine and no one understands it. Let try to explain it. Density and Pressure of tone has purpose and this purpose is described by artistic value of musical peace. With the expressive intentions of a given composition and the given interpretation there are always inner-reasons what density and what capacity of a note should be. In this case density, capacity and potency of a tone are almost the synonymous. However, not the Pressure. Pressure is an absentminded parameter that has relation to objective deviation of one volume over another but it has no relation to musical intentions. So, when you told that your have that “"pulsating room effect" across full MF range then I had no problem with it – it looks you are getting good sound out there. However, what you said that your have the same effect from basshorn I recognize it as a problem (your friend Trombonist with his "picking up the room" is very much irrelevant because he plays MF-HF instrument). The load a room with a dense, phase-perfect MF is wonderfully and we in a way experience it in “live” sound. (I said “in away” because in “live” sound we have also “space” and unlimited dynamics…., but it another subject) However, in “live” sound we never experience dense bass. Of course I’m talking about Sound of classical music, opera or any acoustic music not about the electrons surrogate). 

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=3852  

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Vowelness describes harmonic infliction to a note and has a lot to do with a parabola with which a tone rolls to its pitch. Why “vowelness”? Because vowelness is about injection of different vowels into other vowels.  The vowels themselves are “pure tones” and they are characterized by open configuration of vocal tract, so that there is no build-up of air pressure above the glottis. A person with healthy breathing has a perfect inner-references and a clear cognitive recognition of vowels. Any coloration of vowels is a coloration! I had many people were pissed on me because I did not like their bass-horns or subwoofers juts after a few seconds of listening. They accused be for not spending enough time and rush with my negative judgment. What those people do not get is that I know (in most cases) what I’m listening while I listen. I care less how “fast” those subwoofers were and the very first thing I need in LF section is to be able to render vowels without colorations (Ironically the “vowelness” has practically no relation to room response and it is almost exclusively the topology of LF topology). What I mean that “e” should not have “o” in it any “u” should not have “opened a” in it. Russians even more lucky as then have an amassing vowel “ы”, which it superbly useful to assess the LF sections…. Anyhow, I think you got the picture… and what you GOT IS NOT WHAT I AM PROPOSING to deal with the “Oops Techniques”. Sure what I describe in this paragraph is a large part of “Absolute Tone” but it is NOT what I am after in CONTEXT OF THIS THREAD. What I am after is the Absolute Tone’s bubbleability.

The bubbleness of sound is an ability of Absolute Tone demonstrates a high rate of bubbleability. Let I give you an association. Pretend you put a pot with a gallon on water on over and the water begin to boil. As you see the small bubbles of air begin to build up under the bottom of the pot and they run up to surface. Then, while the water is boiling, you increase the temperature of heaters and you see now that the bubbles begun more intensely and more aggressively rash to the surface. The very same is with Sound. The Tone is a Tone but beside the Tone there are those bubbles that are popping up at surface of Sound and burst like microscopic explosives. These bubbly explosives do not affect Tone but they affect the Radioactivity of Sound ™ of the force with which Sound injects itself into listener’s skin and mind.  This bubbleness is what I am targeting with the notions of “Oops techniques” or as Rony Weissman brilliantly descried: “cellos were extremely hairy”. (BTW, the bubbleness is where the S2 is uncontestable emperor)

So, the direction I a looking is slightly opposite then juts use the wood of musical instilments. I formulated VERY EXACTLY and I know VERY PRECISELY what kind “noise” I need to overlay over Sound in odder to get that feeling of bubbleness. I just have no idea what would be able to produced that “noise” in context of horns. So, what I would be interested would be most likely very far for what musical instilments do and is more aligned with the affords of the folks who record noises for cinema films ….

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=412  

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I would consider it, however my experiments with notching lead me to feel that high level parallel notching is as bad as series. A series network removers meaningful tone out of acoustic pressure. The parallel network does not do it but it eats transient response. In both cases the “bad things happens”.  Also, what whatever reasons the parallel network provides different effect with the different but identical drivers. I think I have to explore more opportunities of a parallel notching at line level…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 38
Post ID: 10514
Reply to: 10469
Small HiFi TH
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,
i made a small double TH for 4" driver Mivoc WAL!6 16 Ohm,
with my technic it will be useful up to 200 Hz, but the position of the driver
makes the lower voices colorated, so my advantage can´t be used
because only up to max. 100 Hz the sound is good.
Here a wall application and sat stand:





DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
less is more
08-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 11385
Reply to: 10359
The pocket size 20Hz tapped horn.
fiogf49gjkf0d

In this blog there is information and links about the Danley’s new TH-SPUD tapped horn.

http://hornloudspeakermagazine.blogspot.com/2009/08/tapped-lab-or-something-like-that.html

It is so “tapped” that it is painful to looks at it but they guys clam he that it does the job. At this point I have no doubts that it produce the pressure as the target frequency but how it sounds I have no idea.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 12831
Reply to: 10333
An interesting tapped horn configuration for suspended floors.
fiogf49gjkf0d

As I understand the tapped horns have very small output whole, right? Here is a cool configuration for the folks who have suspended floors and would like to have a relatively large tapped horn do not take a  lot of space  in room – install the tapped through the floor.

I think this is a very cool idea. Pretend we have a listening room with 8 feet basement. So, we make 10 feet tapped horn that we install on the basement floor.  In the listening room will extend only 2 feet appendix with the horn exit. The benefits are very clear: the exit whole will be loaded to the floor and the body of the tapped horn will serve as a solidifying column to reinforce the floor above. I think it is a very good idea.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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