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  »  New  Learn to listen your listening rooms..  Rooms and music-rooms...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     15  78642  04-05-2005
  »  New  Do not over-damped your rooms and particularly…...  Do not over-damped your rooms and particularly…....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     0  17305  10-09-2005
  »  New  Be careful: Imaging vs. Compression..  Compression vs. imaging...  Playback Listening  Forum     23  141995  10-24-2005
  »  New  The IDEAL horn system..  The future of loudspeakers according to Lynn Olson....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  103503  12-11-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  28143  06-19-2006
  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Viva Audio...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     190  1236282  12-06-2006
  »  New  Macondo Frame modification...  Parquet...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     46  317486  12-22-2006
  »  New  About speakers Imbedded Macro-Positioning...  Big room AEZ...  Playback Listening  Forum     15  127684  05-16-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  392494  07-29-2007
  »  New  ... again on GOTO Unit drivers.....  GOTO get time-aligned help.... Eventualy!!!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     107  788156  08-16-2008
  »  New  A sort of DPOLs..  My experience with the DEQ...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     8  56831  01-16-2009
  »  New  Off-the-wall playback or the 'hamster solution'...  Spacial information...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  33859  02-26-2009
  »  New  A book about Loudspeakers and Rooms?..  Book review...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  30327  08-18-2009
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1819971  03-28-2010
  »  New  The remarkable moments in Audio...  Thank you for saving us from the fake rabbit hole... th...  Audio Discussions  Forum     13  5385  12-20-2017
07-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 21
Post ID: 13900
Reply to: 13899
Over 1,000 Satisfied Customers
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dave Wilson is a very clever guy who runs the quintessential Robb Report venture. And unlike the usual RR bottle rocket Morons, Dave has really endured. I think this is at least partly because he takes a 2-pronged approach to product and market analysis and development, and he keeps these two aspects tightly intertwined at all times. Speaking of the large Wilsons, I cannot think of another audio product that comes closer to the audiophile wet dream sound, to the point that it virtually defines it; and I don't think this is a coincidence.  Also, their smaller speakers are - appropriately enough - like smaller versions of their big siblings. Although some of the in-room phase issues I've heard might never be solved outside an anechoic chamber, they do have a wide range of adjustability, and it seems to be  generally possible to move the speakers around in a large-ish room until one gets a Heapin' Helpin' of Audiophile HeavenTM. I think most prospective purchasers already know that Wilson also runs a "recording studio", reflecting his "passion for music".  He and his lead installation guys know well what they are listening for, and they go out and deliver it to their well-heeled, adoring clients, 1/4" at a time, if necessary. While it might be interesting, or even useful, to study their methodology, I believe they are actually sophistocated enough to have system-specific and buyer-specific objectives built into their protocols.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 15010
Reply to: 994
The DPoLS in the new room: new thoughts.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Since my new room is set and the playback is installed and configures I name an interesting observation:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=1500

Continue to think in this direction I come to very promising hypothesis that I would like to try if my Macondo would not be so huge and heavy. To make practical experiment on it I would need to device a mechanism to move Macondo’s right with very high precision but considering the size and the mass of the thing I do not have this option for now. If someone would devise foe me such a mechanism then I would appreciate it.

Anyhow, back to the inspiration/ hypothesis that I have. The inspiration suggests that time alignment is the key for DPoLS setting. However, here the time alignment needs to be understood a bit differently. Usually time alignment implies the arrival of the sound from all channels of the same loudspeaker at the very same fraction of phase. The DPoLS Time Alignment ™ is a different animal. It implies a Triple Time Alignment:

1)      Alignment  of the Channels of the same loudspeaker
2)      Alignment  of BOTH loudspeaker in the room
3)      First major reflections of the room for both loudspeakers.

This is in a way a revolutionist thinking about Time Alignment as it does not imply the Time Alignment itself but a combination of Time Alignment with benefits of Time Alignment. Let me to explain as it might be a bit confusing die to my careless use of definitions. I will explain it on examples how I feel the DPoLS might be found (if my theory is right) fully predictable, methodologically and without even listening the loudspeaker.

So, you get a pair of loudspeakers and a room with comfortable foe you reflection pattern. You set up left loudspeaker (left for you) where I need to be. I always suggest starting from left loudspeaker as it cares the fist violins, sopranos of choruses and generally in western culture is associated with HF lead. You take RTA or TEF pulse analyzer and perfects align each channel of the loudspeaker to your listening position. Then you take a right loudspeaker and do the same. They the fun begins. You need to align the right and left loudspeakers to each other in respect to this position in the room. We are not taking here about arrival time and it will be skewed and hardly measurable as we will not be able to subtract the modulations from reflections. So you take pulse analyzer away and using just TRA we are trying to setup R and L loudspeakers to have max amplitude of each other impact.  Here is where you deal with true DPoLS.

Here is where you deal with true DPoLS: a single mm of moving or angle of right loudspeaker does impact sound but it also impacts the RTA summation if you use a high resolution (let say .25dB and higher). I need to warn you that the operation at 0.1dB level non-anechoicly from let say 10 feet is very tricky and generally might be considered idiotic. But the whole point is that you want all live reflections of your room to be inclusive.  You might use cancelation after a few ms to deal only with fist reflections. Anyhow, you objective is to setup your R loudspeaker with as low conflict to your L loudspeaker and to your room. The microscopic movement and angling of your R loudspeaker acts as a lubrication that put your R loudspeaker in micro-phase conflict-less operation. This is in my theory is a condition for a proper DPoLS operation.

Now, SOME aspects of the theory above I have tested and was able to get very substantial gain of performance. I did not apply the success to the whole Macondo, I will but to do it I need a full house of strong hoodlums with tools what would very precisely moive my speakers according to my instructions. I very much willing to do it sometimes but the Macondo frame is not friendly for this task.

A note I need to make. The above method is a method with using of tools of objective control. The very identical result might be accomplished by specific targeted listening if a person knows what and how to listen.  However, I do not think that those skills might be delegated in article and I will refer you to measurement tools. If you are not deaf and have some listening intelligence then you will very soon discover what changes happen with sound while it become less self-conflicting and how to look and find those changes in  new sound. The most important is that the theory above gives (I hope) you a tool how to navigate sound objectively, by measurement and predictably toward to the DPoLS operation.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 23
Post ID: 15011
Reply to: 15010
Understanding the dpols
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

The microscopic movement and angling

Rgs, Romy the Cat


I agree and understand how important is moving the speakers to find the symmetrical impulse from both channels BUT in microscopic movement we mainly correct the vibration of speakers which indeed effects the whole things.
in my view the microscopic movements is bringing the luck to have both speakers vibrate in way to generate same impulses ...

unicon
11-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 15012
Reply to: 15011
Connectivity is not causality.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 unicon wrote:
I agree and understand how important is moving the speakers to find the symmetrical impulse from both channels BUT in microscopic movement we mainly correct the vibration of speakers which indeed effects the whole things.
in my view the microscopic movements is bringing the luck to have both speakers vibrate in way to generate same impulses ...

It would be hard to see how at microscopic level vibration comes to the picture. It might of course offset pulse response but to a degree but the degree would be much lower than the offset by distance discrepancy. It is not to mention that feeling that vibration is on the picture would be identical to stating that vibration-prone speakers have no DPoLS dependency. I do not think that this is the case.

I do not want to jump from DPoLS to vibration subject but I feel that vibration of speaks is not a problem at all. It is the problem that it very obvious, easy to demonstrate and very easy to sell to people. Some companies build up on the fear of vibration and spend a lot of efforts to deal with it (Revel foe instance) but still end up with horrible result (that might have no connection to vibration at all). Some companies do include the presumption of vibration into the design (the Living Voice is the example, even though I do not know how they sound and some sources suggest that light and vibrating enclosures has nothing to do with sound but with LV intention to same on cross-ocean shipment.)

Still, whatever impact the vibrations have I think in phase vibrating of both speakers might be desirable. Here is what the pulses need to be read by laser with taking into consideration the distances between the listener and speakers – very interesting subject but absolutely not observed….

I still would feel that the box vibrations are no what we deal during DPoLS setting but no one can be certain about anything what we are taking about Quantum Mechanics of Loudspeakers Setup. The sad part is no one taking or dealing with this “Quantum Mechanics”. I am sure if some serious sound company would put their math and experimental recourses into the subjects then we would see a small $149.95 devise that would set find for us DPoLS very easy.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 80
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 25
Post ID: 15015
Reply to: 15010
DPoLS
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear Romy, you've said many times that speaker placement in big rooms are different animal.
Is this method apply to big rooms also?
Regards, Armen


02-17-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 20617
Reply to: 994
It is time to go for DPoLS?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I got a few days an email from the site reader where he expressed interest about DPoLS and informed me that is working on his own methodology to deal with DPoLS.  This kind of revived in my memory when my own installation was in DPoLS positions, God, that was fantastic!!!

So, I kind of slowly begin to think if it would be a good time for me to try to chaise DPoLS with Macondo and my new listening room. Over 3 years that I live with my new current listening room I never went for DPoLS, I think I am in position to go for it now. The floors are flat now (hardwood) and the ma Macondo has felt at the bottom- so it more or less mobile.  I think I need to get a second person and spend a good listening day to try chasing the DPoLS. The DPoLS is in a way a mythical unicorn. The unicorn hunt is my wify’s favorite theme, perhaps I will be able to sell the concept to her and let her to move Macondo while I am listening.  Well, in the worse care I will sleeping a in basement next night -  not bad -  I can smoke sugars in there.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-18-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 222
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 27
Post ID: 20618
Reply to: 20617
DPoLS 3D?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
I say "Go for it"!  With your usual documentation, we can only profit from you getting the hernia first. I got mine operated on last week, so looking is all that I can do for the next 3 months.

One thing that has always roused my curiosity: your speakers are spread over quite a big area. Getting DPoLS for all of them at the same floor position seems to be a pretty big crap shoot. Your midbass horns are built in. What happens when the upper bass gets DPoLS? Does it become impossible to integrate?


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
02-18-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 20619
Reply to: 20618
Room Loading vs...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, it is time again for me, too, as soon as my amps get back from United Radio. Among many choices to make, which music to target?

OT, Robin, I think every trumpet player I've ever known has had a hernia. Hope all goes well for you, but WTF?

Best regards,
Paul S
04-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran
Posts 142
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 29
Post ID: 24796
Reply to: 15010
Confused
 Romy the Cat wrote:

So, you get a pair of loudspeakers and a room with comfortable foe you reflection pattern. You set up left loudspeaker (left for you) where I need to be. I always suggest starting from left loudspeaker as it cares the fist violins, sopranos of choruses and generally in western culture is associated with HF lead. You take RTA or TEF pulse analyzer and perfects align each channel of the loudspeaker to your listening position. Then you take a right loudspeaker and do the same. 


Rgs, Romy the Cat

what means "You set up left loudspeaker (left for you) " ? does it mean we should first position left speaker in a good place and then use RTA to Align channels after positioning? 
 Romy the Cat wrote:

They the fun begins. You need to align the right and left loudspeakers to each other in respect to this position in the room. We are not taking here about arrival time and it will be skewed and hardly measurable as we will not be able to subtract the modulations from reflections. So you take pulse analyzer away and using just TRA we are trying to setup R and L loudspeakers to have max amplitude of each other impact.  Here is where you deal with true DPoLS.


Rgs, Romy the Cat

does it mean we should again change speakers positions?does it mean we just align channels in this step?


I Love My Mom
Page 2 of 2 (29 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Learn to listen your listening rooms..  Rooms and music-rooms...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     15  78642  04-05-2005
  »  New  Do not over-damped your rooms and particularly…...  Do not over-damped your rooms and particularly…....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     0  17305  10-09-2005
  »  New  Be careful: Imaging vs. Compression..  Compression vs. imaging...  Playback Listening  Forum     23  141995  10-24-2005
  »  New  The IDEAL horn system..  The future of loudspeakers according to Lynn Olson....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  103503  12-11-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  28143  06-19-2006
  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Viva Audio...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     190  1236282  12-06-2006
  »  New  Macondo Frame modification...  Parquet...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     46  317486  12-22-2006
  »  New  About speakers Imbedded Macro-Positioning...  Big room AEZ...  Playback Listening  Forum     15  127684  05-16-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  392494  07-29-2007
  »  New  ... again on GOTO Unit drivers.....  GOTO get time-aligned help.... Eventualy!!!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     107  788156  08-16-2008
  »  New  A sort of DPOLs..  My experience with the DEQ...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     8  56831  01-16-2009
  »  New  Off-the-wall playback or the 'hamster solution'...  Spacial information...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  33859  02-26-2009
  »  New  A book about Loudspeakers and Rooms?..  Book review...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  30327  08-18-2009
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1819971  03-28-2010
  »  New  The remarkable moments in Audio...  Thank you for saving us from the fake rabbit hole... th...  Audio Discussions  Forum     13  5385  12-20-2017
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