| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Bye-Bye, Fane (109 posts, 6 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 2 of 6 (109 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo Horns: biography...  Macondo with Pussy Eyes....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  61031  05-18-2005
  »  New  Exceptional loudspeakers drivers..  Compression tweeters...  Audio Discussions  Forum     34  409261  06-12-2006
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  279625  10-28-2007
03-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 21
Post ID: 10010
Reply to: 3943
Studio 8M alternatives
fiogf49gjkf0d

Since the 8M is now no longer to be had anywhere, for love or money (delighted to be contradicted on this), would people care to suggest alternatives for precisely the use Romy puts it to: driving a round, 3-4 inch throat, upper bass horn? I know it is impossible to know what any driver will sound like until it is in situ, but we can at least narrow down the list. Any suggestions? For example, can we take it as agreed that a fixed back chamber (e.g. RCFs MR10N301, which otherwise looks interesting) would be a bad idea? 

 

 
03-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 10012
Reply to: 10010
To Fane or not to Fane?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 decoud wrote:

Since the 8M is now no longer to be had anywhere, for love or money (delighted to be contradicted on this), would people care to suggest alternatives for precisely the use Romy puts it to: driving a round, 3-4 inch throat, upper bass horn? I know it is impossible to know what any driver will sound like until it is in situ, but we can at least narrow down the list. Any suggestions? For example, can we take it as agreed that a fixed back chamber (e.g. RCFs MR10N301, which otherwise looks interesting) would be a bad idea? 
Decoud,

Asking about it you must mention what would be the rate of the horn. The 160Hz and 80Hz horns are both upper bass horn but they would require different drivers, wouldn’t they?  I have to note that for 4 inch throat the 8” Fane 8M (5.5” without the spider) is marginally suitable but for 3-4 inch throat is questionably suitable.  It has true 103dB sensitivity, very good tone, very low compression (in horn) and some other absurd characteristics that make it unique. Is anything better out there? I really do not know and I did not try anything else since I began to use 8M. I might consider trying other driver if I see properly-made 4” compression driver. The only one out there is Community M4 with its idiotic double suspension – a horrible driver. I do not know any other compression drivers. There are quite a few direct radiators that might do – you might want to try them. Do not discard the car and consumers drivers they might be good.

Generally you need to talk with the community of Romy’s haters. There is a group of horn enthusiasts whom I consider “idiots” and who read, print, memorized times and times each horn post at this site, who would love to use good upper bass drivers but whose Moronic attitude would not allow them to use the same driver as Romy The Cat does. They each month discover a new driver that reportedly “betters then Fane 8M”. It is might be the case but I would like to warn that there is a reason WHY I recognize them as Idiots long before they have intelligence and sense to recognize this fact about themselves.

I do not want the paragraph above to sound like my doubts there - they are good driver out there – they are there – I just did not look for them. BTW, I am surprised that you feel that “8M is now no longer to be had anywhere, for love or money…”. They are quite regularly pop up here and there for $50. So, to make up your mind about 8M you would not have problems….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 23
Post ID: 10014
Reply to: 10012
Twinning a pair
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,

The horn is 140Hz, tractrix, with a 4 inch throat. I am certainly not looking to improve on the 8M, in fact I have one driver already, but have not been able to find another for many months, at least the usual places. Where do you see them cropping up?

Best, D
03-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 10016
Reply to: 10014
Fine 8M and otheres...
fiogf49gjkf0d
For 140Hz, tractrix, with a 4 inch throat the Fane 8M shall be a good driver. They quite friquntly pop up at German eBay, and UK pro shops have them - at least it is use to be so. If you have one and if you like it then you will fish another one – they are not too seldom or expensive. I would like people use different drivers instead of Fane 8M, soon or later people come across to something interesting. I just wish people were not driven not by idiotic intention to do opposite to what the Cat does but instead were driven by sonic considerations, but it would be too much to ask…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 25
Post ID: 10022
Reply to: 10010
Feigning the 8M
fiogf49gjkf0d
Decoud,

Though I have a pair of 8Ms, I did some searching around for alternatives just to make sure I couldn't find something "better".

Its not really a kosher approach, but my research was centered on vintage alnico drivers, originally conceived as direct radiators. There are no specs for most of these, and if there were they would probably not be indicitave of a particularly horn-friendly driver. But I was looking for tone, and was willing to take chances. I did A/B comparisons against the Fane drivers (had two 115Hz horns to use), and before I had the rear chambers done, thought I had found at least one pair that I liked better (less "dry" sounding and louder when playing low notes), but once I got the rear chambers done, I ended up reverting to the Fane drivers. This is because I found the sound of the vintage drivers down low was slightly slopy by comparison, though they would still play lower, louder. I did not of course try everything, and there may well be a driver out there that I would prefer to the Fanes.

For this reason, I would encourage you to consider any driver thats going for a fair price, has a large alnico magnet, paper cone, and paper suspension. If it doesn't work out, they are easy to sell. One nice thing about these older drivers is they are mostly wound with 4 and 5 Ohm coils, which means you don't end up with a huge filtering coil (if you are going with passive Xovers).

Romy,

Have you ever tried the Community M4? I'd still like to try this driver.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
03-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 10024
Reply to: 10022
If I were not pleased with Fane I would look into this future.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Have you ever tried the Community M4? I'd still like to try this driver.

Yes, I think we had a convesation about in the “The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next? “ thread, I have linked it to current thread. Community M4 would be a perfect driver for type of the horn I use and of cause I tried it, in fact I tried it before I discovered Fanes. Unfortunately sonically M4 is beyond of being horrible. It sounds in a way similar to the celebrated by Morons BMS driver, only 43902 levels worse. M4 has insultingly-gray sound with huge compression, flat and not articulate with only b/w compressed contrasts. It always sounds like a telephone from 30s or AM from hand-held radio. The contrast between the Community objectives and what they actually done is just stunning.

http://www.loudspeakers.net/files/technote/M4%20White%20Paper.pdf?PHPSESSID=f38da9ed4831c2a8c2d370de73088b16

http://www.loudspeakers.net/files/specs/new/m4.pdf

I have to note that with all my negativism about this driver, I believe that did not sold them and they might still sitting somewhere deep into my storage, perhaps already turn rusty. I do not know what is the reason of such a bad sound from M4 but I presume that sometimes it would be worth to redo the driver somehow. Perhaps some things might be changed and modified in there and it might throw better sound. The idea to have 4” compression driver for my home does sound attractive…. If I were not pleased with Fane I would look into this future.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 27
Post ID: 10025
Reply to: 10016
Best throat diameter for Fane
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

I can't find a/the post(s) where you describe the advantages of using a 4 inch throat. Stereo-lab makes both 4 and 8 inch throat 140Hz horns but I don't think they could make an 8 to 4 inch adapter...

Also, would it be advisable to have the Fane cover a wider range, say 250-1000Hz in a more compact and less expensive 4 way installation?

Best,
Tuga


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
03-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 10026
Reply to: 10025
Fane 8M, study
fiogf49gjkf0d

 tuga wrote:
I can't find a/the post(s) where you describe the advantages of using a 4 inch throat. Stereo-lab makes both 4 and 8 inch throat 140Hz horns but I don't think they could make an 8 to 4 inch adapter...

With Fane 8M you would not need an 8 to 4 inch adapter. It is normal it you use a direct radiator driver as a compression driver than the size of cone is larger than the size of throat, up to the point of course. Fane 8M is 8” but it has very wide skirt of outer suspension that makes it effectively 6.5” driver. The 6.5” loaded into 4” is about to be right ratio.

 tuga wrote:
Also, would it be advisable to have the Fane cover a wider range, say 250-1000Hz in a more compact and less expensive 4 way installation?

Oh, sure. Fane is very fine to shoot all the way up, I used it up to 1000Hz for a while, if fact you can take it even much higher if you wish. It would all depends from how much front chamber you have and how much you stress it with back chamber. BTW, if you add to Fane a phase plug then you can suck out of it even more HF. Fane is very inductive and you will not be able to roll it off at high knee circulated by normal equations but you shell be able to tweak it…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 29
Post ID: 10027
Reply to: 10022
Experimentation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, Jessie. I will try something like what you describe if I fail to find another 8M. I suppose since I have one, I can make some kind of comparison, although mono is clearly not ideal. Hopefully Romy is right about the availability of 8M and I won't have to do it.
03-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 30
Post ID: 10028
Reply to: 10026
Fane in a 4-way
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 tuga wrote:
I can't find a/the post(s) where you describe the advantages of using a 4 inch throat. Stereo-lab makes both 4 and 8 inch throat 140Hz horns but I don't think they could make an 8 to 4 inch adapter...

With Fane 8M you would not need an 8 to 4 inch adapter. It is normal it you use a direct radiator driver as a compression driver than the size of cone is larger than the size of throat, up to the point of course. Fane 8M is 8” but it has very wide skirt of outer suspension that makes it effectively 6.5” driver. The 6.5” loaded into 4” is about to be right ratio.

 tuga wrote:
Also, would it be advisable to have the Fane cover a wider range, say 250-1000Hz in a more compact and less expensive 4 way installation?

Oh, sure. Fane is very fine to shoot all the way up, I used it up to 1000Hz for a while, if fact you can take it even much higher if you wish. It would all depends from how much front chamber you have and how much you stress it with back chamber. BTW, if you add to Fane a phase plug then you can suck out of it even more HF. Fane is very inductive and you will not be able to roll it off at high knee circulated by normal equations but you shell be able to tweak it…

The caT
Thanks. I thought I had read about the throat but I couldn't remember what I had read nor where. I won't experiment with the phase plug, though, it's way over my capabilities.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
03-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oscart
Posts 2
Joined on 10-02-2005

Post #: 31
Post ID: 10063
Reply to: 10010
Fane 8M
fiogf49gjkf0d
Gentleman.... I have available 2, NOS Fane 8M speakers. They have never been used and are still in their original packaging materials. I obtained these some years ago for a project which I did not pursue and would be interested in selling them.
03-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 32
Post ID: 10064
Reply to: 10063
I am interested
fiogf49gjkf0d
Please send specifics on price and your location with your preferred payment type to my email box youssef101[at]sympatico[dot]ca
03-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 33
Post ID: 10068
Reply to: 10063
Another
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am also interested: please email my username as spelt above @boltblue.com
03-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oscart
Posts 2
Joined on 10-02-2005

Post #: 34
Post ID: 10075
Reply to: 10068
Fane Studio 8M
fiogf49gjkf0d
I wanted to answer some questions posed by interested parties. These speakers are 8 ohm and were both manufactured on the same date in 1998.

Though I am not a regular visitor here on the Good Sound Club I am a routine contributor on the Klipsch forums as Oscarsear. I purchased these Fanes some years back for a Klipschorn project. I ended up using the JBL 2482 compression driver instead of the Fanes. They were NOS when I acquired them and they were never used.

I have made them available here first because I know of the interest here. They are not inexpensive but they are much less than I paid for used JBL 2482 drivers several years back. If I cannot sell them here I may put them on Audiogon or I may just hang on to them.

Thanks
Dave
08-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mjloudspeaker
Posts 40
Joined on 08-07-2009

Post #: 35
Post ID: 11401
Reply to: 10024
Community m4 is a dud?
fiogf49gjkf0d

thanks for the help, romy, this is im8, it works, which is good.

This is what I think of m4. taken from website I made, when I could not post here. I will keep it up, as info for this driver is very rare, not much out there about it.

Personally, I like the industrial appearance and it is charming and endearing to me, in both utility and sound. Stock it is very flawed by design, sorry Community! But the intent to create a fine driver is there, and they have done it, in my opinion. So from http://communitym4.wetpaint.com/ the development of this for musical use. The work is so simple, really.

From the site:

"1- Purpose
The use of the largest, most powerful commercial PA usage critical midrange driver for critical, high fidelity application for home, or other use.

2- Problems
Stock unmodified driver suffers from some acoustical problems, all related to it's intended Sound Reinforcement Public Address Use;

(a)- "Lack of Tone"

(b)- Some specific "Frequency Band Colourations" and "Resonances", as heard by me.

(c)- A "Dead" or "Flat" Sounding Quality

(d)- A "Not Right" Sound, evidenced by listening to driver without horn loading, "in the Raw", a proven technique to evaluate qualities in any driver.

3- Some Thoughts on the Original Design
The Stock Driver as conceived by Community seems optimized for the following purposes, and employs the following devices;

(a)- Impervious to the Natural Elements when used Outdoors, "it's intended location", with Rugged, Long Life, Sealed and Gasketed Fiberglass Housing, Plastic Surround, and Aluminium or Carbon Fiber Diaphragm Cone .

(b)- Front Chamber Design, which directs all Acoustical Energy "Sound", to the 4" (four inch) Exit, and includes a Concentric Design Phase Plug, which channels this "Sound" and "Boosts" some frequencies by several Decibels of Total Output.

(c)- Removal of the Front Chamber and Phase Plug reveals that my version has aluminium cone, with Plastic Surround.

4- Findings
This Driver listened to "in the Raw" reveals it's true character and qualities, with immense and intricate sound potential. Romy the Cat's flat out dismissal seems premature, and maybe was done with the stock unmodified driver.

(a)- No front chamber is required for my use.

(b)- No phase plug is required for my use.

(c)- The additional acoustic gain (helpful in a Public Address Venue) is not required in my use.

(d)- The driver sounds effortless, accurate, with very good balance, and with a musical softness, and I can listen to it "in the Raw", and miss it, when it is taken away.

(e)- The vertical design horn is the candidate for this driver, to free up space in the room, a la Romy, visit his site, and search "Hanging MidBass Horn", however, this horn will be smaller, for 200 Hz upwards use.

(f)- The low opinion of many who have heard the stock item, and the undesirability of it because of these opinions, makes this driver not wanted for other than intended PA use, and also makes it a great buy on Ebay! MY OPINION HERE.

(g)- This driver has had much effort and development in it's design, and cannot be underrated any longer, it is a significant step forward in sound reproduction, and cannot be discounted lightly, and I will tailor its output to my audio needs.


5- Future
Uploading pictures next, some videos, and horn.
"

I am excited about this one, go figure.
Take care, j.

08-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 11415
Reply to: 11401
Community M4 Driver: questions.
fiogf49gjkf0d
So, I do not understand. You took everything out and use it as direct radiator or you still somehow load M4 into a horn? Are pictures how you use it available? Also, how you use it: crossover point and measurable range? I would be also interested to know what is below and above the M4 (drivers and topology).

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mjloudspeaker
Posts 40
Joined on 08-07-2009

Post #: 37
Post ID: 11416
Reply to: 11401
M4 first line of attack!
fiogf49gjkf0d

To get Community M4 to a certain acceptable musical level, take these steps.

Step 1-

If you will use this driver with the 4 inch exit as is , at the very least of first step, take away the phase plug, and line the inside front chamber with felt or padding to avoid the outrageous reflections. This will improve the sound outright.

Step 2-

I you will use this driver without the front chamber (recommended by me) discard this beautifully manufactured fiberglass item with phase plug insert. I will post pictures of some better uses for it soon.

take care, j.

08-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mjloudspeaker
Posts 40
Joined on 08-07-2009

Post #: 38
Post ID: 11417
Reply to: 11416
Also much work to be done on M4!
fiogf49gjkf0d

Please bear with me, Romy, this is work in progress, be patient, it will be done.

nothing tried nothing learned, take care, j.

08-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mjloudspeaker
Posts 40
Joined on 08-07-2009

Post #: 39
Post ID: 11418
Reply to: 11417
A simple M4 experiment of sound.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Take your hands and form a cup over your mouth with a small exit hole and listen to the stock M4 sound. 

Not pleasant, very nasal, but amplified some decibel DB's, do you disagree?

j.

08-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mjloudspeaker
Posts 40
Joined on 08-07-2009

Post #: 40
Post ID: 11420
Reply to: 11415
I believe your M4 may be very valid, so this is good news!
fiogf49gjkf0d

I do not think my topology is relevant, (it took me 3 months to get my studio horns to sound right 20 years ago so I expect this again, it is a mix of mjlouspeaker transmission lines and this midrange m4 trial. And it is actually 2 systems I am working on, one for outdoor use (big) and my home reference with Titanium mj as centerpiece (until the m4 makes it very scared indeed).

The whole point of my posts is to get the M4 going as a real driver for critical use in a horn, and I absolutely agree that this M4 is obnoxious in its store bought form.

So my goal is to get it (m4) to be replacement of some fane or other now not available, we need something that works and we can get.

My idea is definitely to load this M4 in horn format. This driver is not transmission line candidate at all.

Get rid of front chamber, especially the phase plug, that is held by screws only, that is not centerable, that sounds like hell, that kills all of the sound really, listen to it without all of this front end stuff, I like it a lot, and will post my work when I can, but this to me is very exciting Romy, that the M4 can and will be used for very good purposes.

And this all takes time, that I have when I have it, you know.

They (Community say 200-2000 hz.) Time will tell. I only value the sound and alway cross by ear. It is the ear that must be pleased, mine anyway.

best regards, j. 

Page 2 of 6 (109 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo Horns: biography...  Macondo with Pussy Eyes....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  61031  05-18-2005
  »  New  Exceptional loudspeakers drivers..  Compression tweeters...  Audio Discussions  Forum     34  409261  06-12-2006
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  279625  10-28-2007
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts