decoud wrote:

Since the 8M is now no longer to be had anywhere, for love or money (delighted to be contradicted on this), would people care to suggest alternatives for precisely the use Romy puts it to: driving a round, 3-4 inch throat, upper bass horn? I know it is impossible to know what any driver will sound like until it is in situ, but we can at least narrow down the list. Any suggestions? For example, can we take it as agreed that a fixed back chamber (e.g. RCFs MR10N301, which otherwise looks interesting) would be a bad idea?

Asking about it you must mention what would be the rate of the horn. The 160Hz and 80Hz horns are both upper bass horn but they would require different drivers, wouldn’t they?  I have to note that for 4 inch throat the 8” Fane 8M (5.5” without the spider) is marginally suitable but for 3-4 inch throat is questionably suitable.  It has true 103dB sensitivity, very good tone, very low compression (in horn) and some other absurd characteristics that make it unique. Is anything better out there? I really do not know and I did not try anything else since I began to use 8M. I might consider trying other driver if I see properly-made 4” compression driver. The only one out there is Community M4 with its idiotic double suspension – a horrible driver. I do not know any other compression drivers. There are quite a few direct radiators that might do – you might want to try them. Do not discard the car and consumers drivers they might be good.

Generally you need to talk with the community of Romy’s haters. There is a group of horn enthusiasts whom I consider “idiots” and who read, print, memorized times and times each horn post at this site, who would love to use good upper bass drivers but whose Moronic attitude would not allow them to use the same driver as Romy The Cat does. They each month discover a new driver that reportedly “betters then Fane 8M”. It is might be the case but I would like to warn that there is a reason WHY I recognize them as Idiots long before they have intelligence and sense to recognize this fact about themselves.

I do not want the paragraph above to sound like my doubts there - they are good driver out there – they are there – I just did not look for them. BTW, I am surprised that you feel that “8M is now no longer to be had anywhere, for love or money…”. They are quite regularly pop up here and there for $50. So, to make up your mind about 8M you would not have problems….

jessie.dazzle wrote:

Have you ever tried the Community M4? I'd still like to try this driver.

http://www.loudspeakers.net/files/technote/M4%20White%20Paper.pdf?PHPSESSID=f38da9ed4831c2a8c2d370de73088b16

http://www.loudspeakers.net/files/specs/new/m4.pdf

I have to note that with all my negativism about this driver, I believe that did not sold them and they might still sitting somewhere deep into my storage, perhaps already turn rusty. I do not know what is the reason of such a bad sound from M4 but I presume that sometimes it would be worth to redo the driver somehow. Perhaps some things might be changed and modified in there and it might throw better sound. The idea to have 4” compression driver for my home does sound attractive…. If I were not pleased with Fane I would look into this future.

tuga wrote:

I can't find a/the post(s) where you describe the advantages of using a 4 inch throat. Stereo-lab makes both 4 and 8 inch throat 140Hz horns but I don't think they could make an 8 to 4 inch adapter...

With Fane 8M you would not need an 8 to 4 inch adapter. It is normal it you use a direct radiator driver as a compression driver than the size of cone is larger than the size of throat, up to the point of course. Fane 8M is 8” but it has very wide skirt of outer suspension that makes it effectively 6.5” driver. The 6.5” loaded into 4” is about to be right ratio.

tuga wrote:

Also, would it be advisable to have the Fane cover a wider range, say 250-1000Hz in a more compact and less expensive 4 way installation?

Oh, sure. Fane is very fine to shoot all the way up, I used it up to 1000Hz for a while, if fact you can take it even much higher if you wish. It would all depends from how much front chamber you have and how much you stress it with back chamber. BTW, if you add to Fane a phase plug then you can suck out of it even more HF. Fane is very inductive and you will not be able to roll it off at high knee circulated by normal equations but you shell be able to tweak it…

Romy the Cat wrote:

tuga wrote: I can't find a/the post(s) where you describe the advantages of using a 4 inch throat. Stereo-lab makes both 4 and 8 inch throat 140Hz horns but I don't think they could make an 8 to 4 inch adapter... With Fane 8M you would not need an 8 to 4 inch adapter. It is normal it you use a direct radiator driver as a compression driver than the size of cone is larger than the size of throat, up to the point of course. Fane 8M is 8” but it has very wide skirt of outer suspension that makes it effectively 6.5” driver. The 6.5” loaded into 4” is about to be right ratio.  tuga wrote: Also, would it be advisable to have the Fane cover a wider range, say 250-1000Hz in a more compact and less expensive 4 way installation? Oh, sure. Fane is very fine to shoot all the way up, I used it up to 1000Hz for a while, if fact you can take it even much higher if you wish. It would all depends from how much front chamber you have and how much you stress it with back chamber. BTW, if you add to Fane a phase plug then you can suck out of it even more HF. Fane is very inductive and you will not be able to roll it off at high knee circulated by normal equations but you shell be able to tweak it… The caT

thanks for the help, romy, this is im8, it works, which is good.

This is what I think of m4. taken from website I made, when I could not post here. I will keep it up, as info for this driver is very rare, not much out there about it.

Personally, I like the industrial appearance and it is charming and endearing to me, in both utility and sound. Stock it is very flawed by design, sorry Community! But the intent to create a fine driver is there, and they have done it, in my opinion. So from http://communitym4.wetpaint.com/ the development of this for musical use. The work is so simple, really.

From the site:

"1- Purpose
The use of the largest, most powerful commercial PA usage critical midrange driver for critical, high fidelity application for home, or other use.

2- Problems
Stock unmodified driver suffers from some acoustical problems, all related to it's intended Sound Reinforcement Public Address Use;

(a)- "Lack of Tone"

(b)- Some specific "Frequency Band Colourations" and "Resonances", as heard by me.

(c)- A "Dead" or "Flat" Sounding Quality

(d)- A "Not Right" Sound, evidenced by listening to driver without horn loading, "in the Raw", a proven technique to evaluate qualities in any driver.

3- Some Thoughts on the Original Design
The Stock Driver as conceived by Community seems optimized for the following purposes, and employs the following devices;

(a)- Impervious to the Natural Elements when used Outdoors, "it's intended location", with Rugged, Long Life, Sealed and Gasketed Fiberglass Housing, Plastic Surround, and Aluminium or Carbon Fiber Diaphragm Cone .

(b)- Front Chamber Design, which directs all Acoustical Energy "Sound", to the 4" (four inch) Exit, and includes a Concentric Design Phase Plug, which channels this "Sound" and "Boosts" some frequencies by several Decibels of Total Output.

(c)- Removal of the Front Chamber and Phase Plug reveals that my version has aluminium cone, with Plastic Surround.

4- Findings
This Driver listened to "in the Raw" reveals it's true character and qualities, with immense and intricate sound potential. Romy the Cat's flat out dismissal seems premature, and maybe was done with the stock unmodified driver.

(a)- No front chamber is required for my use.

(b)- No phase plug is required for my use.

(c)- The additional acoustic gain (helpful in a Public Address Venue) is not required in my use.

(d)- The driver sounds effortless, accurate, with very good balance, and with a musical softness, and I can listen to it "in the Raw", and miss it, when it is taken away.

(e)- The vertical design horn is the candidate for this driver, to free up space in the room, a la Romy, visit his site, and search "Hanging MidBass Horn", however, this horn will be smaller, for 200 Hz upwards use.

(f)- The low opinion of many who have heard the stock item, and the undesirability of it because of these opinions, makes this driver not wanted for other than intended PA use, and also makes it a great buy on Ebay! MY OPINION HERE.

(g)- This driver has had much effort and development in it's design, and cannot be underrated any longer, it is a significant step forward in sound reproduction, and cannot be discounted lightly, and I will tailor its output to my audio needs.

5- Future
Uploading pictures next, some videos, and horn. "

I am excited about this one, go figure.
Take care, j.

To get Community M4 to a certain acceptable musical level, take these steps.

Step 1-

If you will use this driver with the 4 inch exit as is , at the very least of first step, take away the phase plug, and line the inside front chamber with felt or padding to avoid the outrageous reflections. This will improve the sound outright.

Step 2-

I you will use this driver without the front chamber (recommended by me) discard this beautifully manufactured fiberglass item with phase plug insert. I will post pictures of some better uses for it soon.

take care, j.

Please bear with me, Romy, this is work in progress, be patient, it will be done.

nothing tried nothing learned, take care, j.

Take your hands and form a cup over your mouth with a small exit hole and listen to the stock M4 sound. 

Not pleasant, very nasal, but amplified some decibel DB's, do you disagree?

j.

I do not think my topology is relevant, (it took me 3 months to get my studio horns to sound right 20 years ago so I expect this again, it is a mix of mjlouspeaker transmission lines and this midrange m4 trial. And it is actually 2 systems I am working on, one for outdoor use (big) and my home reference with Titanium mj as centerpiece (until the m4 makes it very scared indeed).

The whole point of my posts is to get the M4 going as a real driver for critical use in a horn, and I absolutely agree that this M4 is obnoxious in its store bought form.

So my goal is to get it (m4) to be replacement of some fane or other now not available, we need something that works and we can get.

My idea is definitely to load this M4 in horn format. This driver is not transmission line candidate at all.

Get rid of front chamber, especially the phase plug, that is held by screws only, that is not centerable, that sounds like hell, that kills all of the sound really, listen to it without all of this front end stuff, I like it a lot, and will post my work when I can, but this to me is very exciting Romy, that the M4 can and will be used for very good purposes.

And this all takes time, that I have when I have it, you know.

They (Community say 200-2000 hz.) Time will tell. I only value the sound and alway cross by ear. It is the ear that must be pleased, mine anyway.

best regards, j.