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   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Big mama 1.5" horns.... (28 posts, 2 pages)
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  »  New  Vitavox’s S2 Survival Guide...  S2 Diaphragm Types...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     117  907514  07-16-2004
  »  New  Problems with horns: mid-range horns...  First or second order for 1" driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  71255  07-21-2004
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  837206  03-25-2005
  »  New  Chinese upperbass horn...  Some sensibility about bass reproduction...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     35  255270  08-08-2005
  »  New  Proximity of horn’s crossover and it’s ability to care ..  Does this explain or relate to the "trombone"...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  24434  09-16-2007
  »  New  My Multi-way Horns..  Faital chamber/ratio...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  90393  11-29-2009
  »  New  An idea of “Rain Wake-Up Horn”?..  Looking Deeper into Rain Wake Up Horn...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  20817  05-08-2010
10-12-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 2938
Reply to: 2936
Re: Hornopolitick…
Aloha

Well, Martin does this as a labour of love, it's not his day job. They are fibreglass, and once he has constructed the mould, the manufacture is fairly straightforward, unlike say JLH's devices.

So you are not paying for audiophile BS... unlike the guys who repackage madisound's ribbon tweeters as supertweeters and quadruple the cost, for example.
 
It's up to the user if they want to apply extra damping material; actually, with a horn of this size, not having to ship the damping probably saves a fortune on the carriage.

The horns will cost me a fair bit more as I had to commission the mould but still a very good deal I think.
Turns out that the standard postal services won't ship them so no point in cutting the horns any more - one piece it will be.

Martin will have a website soon - I'm think it will be www.azurahorn.com (currently parked).

Cheers
cv
10-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
i_should_coco
UK
Posts 15
Joined on 08-25-2005

Post #: 22
Post ID: 2967
Reply to: 2938
Little sisters
Hi Chaps,

I view of the fact I have two pairs of S2 drivers, I'm intrigued by the thought of running them a la Romy, i.e. high and low.

So, in addition to procuring a pair of Big Mama horns, I'm discussing with Martin the prospect of getting some higher frequency horns made to take over from the 160s at higher frequencies, up to the S2's natural roll-off. Some advice regarding the cossover frequency and how best to integrate them swould be welcome.

My initial thought was to run the 160s up to 2.5kHz to get as much of the mid-range covered by one driver, but it's been pointed out to me that crossing lower (approx. 1kHz) should be better. Some advice on this and suggestions on a suitable flare rate would be welcome.

Thanks,
Pete
07-09-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 4717
Reply to: 2967
About selection of a crossover point.

 i_should_coco wrote:
I view of the fact I have two pairs of S2 drivers, I'm intrigued by the thought of running them a la Romy, i.e. high and low.

So, in addition to procuring a pair of Big Mama horns, I'm discussing with Martin the prospect of getting some higher frequency horns made to take over from the 160s at higher frequencies, up to the S2's natural roll-off. Some advice regarding the cossover frequency and how best to integrate them swould be welcome.

My initial thought was to run the 160s up to 2.5kHz to get as much of the mid-range covered by one driver, but it's been pointed out to me that crossing lower (approx. 1kHz) should be better. Some advice on this and suggestions on a suitable flare rate would be welcome.
Pete,

There are many debates and recommendations out there insisting where to put and where not to put a crossover points. People bring different arguments, insisting where crossover should be and where it should not be. I personally feel that those types of arguments are completely bogus or juts merely irrational if do not take under consideration silly arguments.

There are NO RULES where crossovers “must be” and there are no relationships between crossover’s location and preproduction quality of a specific instrument’s group or a specific voice range. A proper performing crossover (use my principles of “Vertical Continuity”) is not auditable. If the problems around a crossover point are auditable then it does not mean that you need to move crossover up or down, into the “less dangers frequency range” but rather it signifies that you need to fix your damn crossover/installation.

The selection of the crossover point has absolutely no other rational then evaluation the performance of the given channel - driver within the given loading and the given environment. This assessment shell take place in context of the neighboring channels and where the given channels begin to demonstrate weaknesses then the 1 octave above (depends of the crossover type) will be the point of the channels merging.

I strongly insist that it should be no other “intellectual reasoning” in selection of the crossover points besides the observing the actual performance (individual and integrated) of the given channel and making a decision based upon the actual results.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-13-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Superlian
Posts 2
Joined on 08-13-2017

Post #: 24
Post ID: 23360
Reply to: 4717
The best and worst crossover point?
Dear


I know that it is very difficult to evaluate others system without a physical visit.
Still i have a very general question about the "worst crossover point".

I hear from experienced HiFi people that 2-4000 Hz is the worst place to have a crossover and that the region 1200-7000 Hz should come from one horn. Could loobing in the most sensitive area in the "threshold of hearing curve" be the issue?
For the record, when i compare my system with JBL M2 waveguide from 800->10000 Hz with JBL 2450SL (original Aquaplas diaphragm) i can hear a slightly wider, softer and coherent soundstage but it is also less dynamic, i miss the BIG feeling.

My room is 10ft 3in wide and 18ft 8in long. Height is 7ft.
My consern is the listening distance of 7ft from the horn mouth.

Will a Tractrix 600 instead of Tractrix 1000 be a better choise? I also have B&C DM50 which i can use from 400-1200 Hz in Tractrix 200. Then i can use JBL 2450SL Truextent BE from 1200 to 10000 Hz in Tractrix 600?

Regards Hans Smile



The system:

Fostex T500 : >10000 Hz
Radian 475 be : Tractrix 1000 :  2800-10000  Hz
JBL 2446 be from Truextent : Tractrix 200 :  600-2800  Hz
2x AE TD12M : closed enclosure : 80-600 Hz
AE TD18H+ : vented enclosure : <80 Hz

Groundsound 4 way digital active crossover/dac/preamp (IIR with PEQ & Delay): 
http://www.groundsound.com/dcn28.php

First Watt B4mk1 2 way analoge active electronic crossover:
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/prod_b4_man_old.pdf

(Since i need 5 way crossover i use First Watt B4 after Groundsound and then cross T500 and Radian 475be)


Sonos Connect Magna Ultimo mod

Hypex Ucd2K dual mono
Anaview AMS1000
3x Anaview AMS0100

8 x RPG Modex Plate 1
2 x RPG Absorbor in ceeling
2 x RPG BAD
2 x diy custom absorbers

Diy rack







IMG_6926.PNG
08-13-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 23361
Reply to: 23360
This is how the things getting done.
Hans, indeed, generally it it not a good idea to have idea put crossover point in between 2 and 4K but it is a general rule. That rule that might be very much overridden by a good practical implementation of a particular installation. To do this “good practical implementation” you need to have reason to put your crossover at any octave of your choice. It is hard to me to say anything further as I do not know your reasons, and not the last factor of my ignorance is the fact that you the drivers about which I am uninformed.  
 
You are running your JBL 2446 all the way to 2.8K? Would it be because your Radian 475 because place in a larger horn do not do well 1-2K region? I do not know Radian 475 an only you can say what drives you. Now, to have 2.8K channel sitting as high (elevation) as you have in context of nearfields listening is challenging. If you drop your output to let sat 100Hz then you will need to introduce a larger MF horn for JBL and that means to move your Radian a few inches up. Will it be a right direction? With knowing your driver, the way how you do crossovers, your room and your amplification no one with tell you. Another factor is your cossovering, only God knows how good or bed your Groundsound digital crossover is., not to mention that your crossover slopes and filter types are not know. 
 
So, what you need to get from all of it is that “yes, to put a crossover in the mid of MF is not good” but it is ONLY if this rule competes with identical in quality of implementation crossover sensations.  Otherwise the rule defeats itself. Do not pay attention to any rules. Rules are posfactum of consecutive successes.  Make your playback to sound well and then write your own rules. This is how the things getting done.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 63
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 26
Post ID: 23362
Reply to: 23360
Why not 3 octaves
Why dont you use your midrange horn with the JBL from 600hz to 4800hz? I think it would have a fairly flat and good response and tt wont be beaming. It works with the tractrix 1000, I have done it before. I then tried my Radian 475be with JMLC1400 from 4500 to 9000hz and its even better. So even 1400hz horn work without problems, and matches with the tractrix 200. Do not be afraid to try because of what has been said before. I have a much more open and coherent sound with this setup.

08-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 107
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 27
Post ID: 23363
Reply to: 23361
Nice flaws
Hi. I got different oppinion bout the XO.For sure it has influence on the lobing. Definately, depending on which filter type u use, it will create different on- and off axis response.
E.g. i like cutting the supertweeter at 8k with butterworth even order. will give you a +3db peak on axis, but a linear average (all axes) response.This is nice as the 8k peak gives a touch xtra resolution and stage size. The overall balance is still fine.
The next favorite XO between mid & hi is 3 or 3.5k. Ears most sensitive in that region. Many people, listening to very loud female voice especially, like to dipthe response in that region (bbc dip). Thats according to Linkwitz the region where our ears got different response depending on the listening angle.So what i do, i cross at 3.5k with an linkwitz (or any other flat summing -6dB XO point) filter, that gives me linear on axis response, but an overall energy dip of -3dB xactly there. Which fades the indirect sound a tiny bit to smoothen "the shout".
Another region of sensitivity is 200Hz. Below youre very sensitive to phase shifts, above less. 
Also one should try not to have alisson effects of surrounding walls near the XO points. Generally. This is the worst of all.
Last but not least, try to measure more. Not just RTA. But hi-res sinus sweep. Try outdoor measure. Gives you real hi-res curves and unvieles weak spots of the driver. Especially distortion. Try not to reach amplitude ripples on the top. Most of all, try to cross to highpass before the D3 odd harmonic raises. The measures will narrow your best options down more than you want Smile
cheersjosh
08-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Superlian
Posts 2
Joined on 08-13-2017

Post #: 28
Post ID: 23364
Reply to: 23361
Crossover point
Romy, Radian 475be performs best over 2K. It has some distortion around 1700 Hz. I think in general that 1 inch drivers should not be used lower than 2K.
I understand your point that the practical implementation is more important than a "best practice" crossover point.

Kodomo, i will try to borrow a JMLC1400 and test your solution.

Martinshorn, very interresting ideas, i will also test them.



THX for replies Smile









Page 2 of 2 (28 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Vitavox’s S2 Survival Guide...  S2 Diaphragm Types...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     117  907514  07-16-2004
  »  New  Problems with horns: mid-range horns...  First or second order for 1" driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  71255  07-21-2004
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  837206  03-25-2005
  »  New  Chinese upperbass horn...  Some sensibility about bass reproduction...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     35  255270  08-08-2005
  »  New  Proximity of horn’s crossover and it’s ability to care ..  Does this explain or relate to the "trombone"...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  24434  09-16-2007
  »  New  My Multi-way Horns..  Faital chamber/ratio...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  90393  11-29-2009
  »  New  An idea of “Rain Wake-Up Horn”?..  Looking Deeper into Rain Wake Up Horn...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  20817  05-08-2010
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