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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2925302  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2144253  07-26-2009
02-14-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 21
Post ID: 22496
Reply to: 22495
The High Demands System
fiogf49gjkf0d
Clark, your point is well taken, but I understood we have been talking about whether or how to achieve a working balance between high-demands audio and a growing, young family, with an eye on Romy's present "main" system/investment. Are you saying that the setting allows the Valencias to offer "more" than Macondo? I will say that I have a hard time reconciling accommodations for a large group with SOTA sound; but this seems to be what's up for discussion. Way back when I brushed semi-regularly with Hollywood notables, I saw many "screening rooms"/home theaters that were just that, with tiered seating, the works. And even back then, sound was part of it, and the moguls had, naturally, "theater" sound systems that did load those big rooms. But I have supposed we are talking more of a large room, per se, than a theater here, and we have been charged to come up with a way to get good sound in a fairly fluid and very "public", large space.

And yes, it might well take years, with the "goals" changing as the kids grow up, and the family transforms accordingly.



Best regards,
Paul S
02-14-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004
Post #: 22
Post ID: 22497
Reply to: 22496
Paul S --
fiogf49gjkf0d
I wasn't validating the audio components -- was just saying it's a wonderful room, relaxed, comfortable, good sound (not Macondo) and I would say family- and child-friendly.

In my large Studio room I had chairs placed on the perpendicular bisector, each position yielding pretty good imaging.

At home now I'm reduced to 30', but audio has become less important to me so there's just a wide, comfortable sofa, an 8' screen (JVC projector) and two VMPS towers. Most people say it's the best sound they've ever heard for at-home movies. Like Romy, I find two channels not only sufficient but best. Some viewers even prefer sitting further back.

Important note: The screen is at sofa-viewer head height, no neck straining.

cj
02-14-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 23
Post ID: 22498
Reply to: 22497
Social Life vs. Private Life vs. Family Life
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, Clark, you've been in my "empty nester" space, and not much has changed since then, except my granddaughters are now in their mid-teens. I seem to be in a perfect position to go balls out in the space, but the truth is, I no longer wish to cut myself off entirely anymore in order to get the "best possible" Sound, at least, not often. And this may be the crux of the matter for any number of us, that we actually want to "be able to" share the experience if the opportunity arises. I remember years ago, Sarah and I had some "artsy" friends over for a nice dinner, and I was playing Nat King Cole, Billie Holiday, etc. pretty darn LOUD, like the old restaurants with live "dinner music", or even the jazz bars of yore. Hell, I guess I used to do that pretty often! I have to laugh now, remembering how well it all worked at the time (for me, anyway...). Today I cannot imagine "intruding" so much into a gathering with my Music, even at home. I think now the "optional" listening room is the best fit for me, and to keep it "socially flexible" is definitely a "compromise" in terms of hi-fi, per se.

And just because I've made little progress does not mean I've given up on a R+L-blended center channel to add to my present (or similar) stereo set-up.


Best regards,
Paul S
02-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 24
Post ID: 22502
Reply to: 22487
Losing my listening room virginity?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I need to say that I am beginning to “get” the people who advocate “isolated” rooms. Thomas begins to walk and he is becoming a self-propelling weapon of mass destruction. At this point I do not mind to see him to be lock out of my listening room’s equipment. I underrated that it will be a short people of time between he learn to walk and begin to obey restrictions. I wonder when a kid begin to understand where he should not go and what he should not touch?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 25
Post ID: 22503
Reply to: 22502
Somewhere about 2yo...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...maybe a little earlier they will start to be able to be negotiated with and take directions and play by the rules.  If you are lucky they become pliable at about 18 months of age.

It is a long time to wait...and then there are the children that follow.
02-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012
Post #: 26
Post ID: 22505
Reply to: 22502
Happiness
fiogf49gjkf0d
I wish for you a very, merry, private man-cave for a few hours each week.  Good for the brain.  zz.
02-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 27
Post ID: 22506
Reply to: 22502
Various Stages of Young
fiogf49gjkf0d
The great thing is, you will (sooner than you can possibly imagine) have a house full of individuals. If you are lucky, your kids will hang out at your place with their friends. I actually bought and kept stocked an extra refrigerator when my kids were teens, and we lived at the beach. I played Musicals and Pink Floyd for the kids. Be smart now, while Thomas is vulnerable, and assume he will be driven by curiosity. We always talked to our kids more or less like they were adults, but no negotiating on who has the last word. Eat your meals together and talk. The main thing for you now is, keep Thomas safe, but allow him to size things up, as well. My son literally climbed the drapes before he could walk, and I managed to keep my gear safe and him alive, and you will do this, too. I think you will see that the hi-fi takes the back seat, and almost certainly so for the others in your family, so I would plan accordingly.


Best regards,
Paul S
02-18-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 28
Post ID: 22507
Reply to: 22459
Hm, another midbass horn idea in new listening room?
fiogf49gjkf0d
As we are looking for our new home I am slowly simmering in my mind the ideas about new midbass horns. It is not that I am short for ideas but I am not sure that I will take my family on a bumpy and costly ride to build new horns. One way or another it was somewhere $20K, many months of dedicated labor or love and I do not want if I want NOW dedicate myself to it. The readers of my site do remember that period of my life stated from the thread “Midbass Horns and Real Estate” in 2009 and ended up with that kinky attic implementation that I enjoy now and I am so proud and it was a brilliant ides in my typically-humble opinion. 
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/Horns_At_attic.JPG  
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/HornsOnAttic_1.jpg 
 
The biggest obstacle to my new midbass horn is not even all above but a feeling that I will hardly will be able again to make my midbass horn as hidden as I did at my current listening room and I certainly do not want to contaminate my new family home with new conspicuous 40 feet evidences of my high-end audio madness. Well, I am saying it and at the same time a new idea is brewing in my head. Here is what I am thinking. 
 
The idea of make a midbass invisible is not properly formulated. Invisibility is not objective but rather the objective is that the horns should be not on my way. I have proposed before that the space between tall sealing and top of the horns is never used for anything and I remember Jessie well depicted it. 
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/Ideal_setup_03.jpg 
 
Now, let to play along with those lines. As now Amy and I are slowly smoldering in our heads one particular house that we saw before and will be having a second viewing this week. There are many thing that we like there many that we do not but the intricate subject in context of this site is that the house has a cathedral ceilings room of an “interesting” (for my objective) profile. I is not pointy but rather has 2 chords, look at the image below. The room is not so large but very nicely integrated with the rest of house and the vaulted ceilings makes small but nice.  So, my idea is to locate the playback perpendicular (!!!) to the cathedral main beam and to use a natural curvature of room wall to write an profile of my midbass horn. The opening of the horn will happen at the location where it will not bother anybody. Furthermore, with proper coloring of the wall and the horn mouths it might be possible to make it pretty. 
MidbassUsingRoomCurve.jpg
 At the sketch above the MF horns are in grey and the ULF channels in green. The Blue is the midbass horn. It starts from long thin neck that might sit behind the ULF channel and then, when the exponential profile begin to open up it will over the ULF box and opening up to unused space above the main speaker. The benefits are very obvious: I can do 40-50Hz horn with no waste of usable footprint in a room and the cost of such horn will be very low as I re-use half of the horn as an existing wall (that obviously need to be beefed up). The problem that I see is only around a direct radiation of midbass and time alignment. I am thinking how to deal with it but the whole notion of the concept is very intriguing.
 
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-18-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 29
Post ID: 22508
Reply to: 22507
Bent Bass and Double Doors
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looks smart. How high (in frequency) can you go before the bend has an audible effect? If it is an issue, could it be "mitigated" by adjusting your upper bass driver?

Meanwhile, I was thinking that something like double doors (or sets of double doors) to the listening room could make it either public or private.


Paul S
02-18-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 30
Post ID: 22509
Reply to: 22507
Using the real estate
fiogf49gjkf0d
I  have just started thinking of something like this for midbass/ULF:  floor firing one-eigth horn (TuneAudio Anima inspired) with the scanspeak array (in green) attached to the side.




There is the obvious problem of time alignment, but I can see no way around the problem other than a digital delay.  With the two channels joined and with one of them positioned so they are physically time aligned (with any luck) then at least the footprint is a little smaller.  

The other option with your midbass horns of your previous diagram is to corner-load them and use two walls and the ceiling as extensions of the horn.  In this way you may be able to get away with an eighth-mouth horn, rather than a quarter-mouth.
02-21-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 31
Post ID: 22510
Reply to: 22507
Through the roof
fiogf49gjkf0d
The narrow portion of the midbass horn is surely begging to be inside a chimney, or a structure made to look like one, protruding through the roof. I am sure birds nesting on the back chamber will not impair its functionality, though it may be a pain to move them when you have to change the driver.
02-22-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 32
Post ID: 22511
Reply to: 22510
Sideways
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just a couple of notes here. In my experience downfiring, or upfiring for that matter, woofers is not a good idea, the coil has to lift the full weight of the cone in order to move it and this slows things down, instead of just pushing them back and forth: it is clearly noticeable. I built a pair of horns that could be used either way, clearly sideways was better by far than downfiring.

Smaller kids learn fast, but remember they will have play dates! One of my kid´s playdates broke the cantilever on my Cartridge, I didn't even thought about telling the mother about it...
Then kids grow up and there is homework and reading hours, and music being played all the time does not allow full concentration. On the other side, a little older kids love to have a hang out where they can have some privacy, the sound room works wonderfully:
02-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 33
Post ID: 22513
Reply to: 22459
If not a midbass horn?
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is so funny. As Kitty and I are looking for different houses we look at different listening rooms and we have different ways to think about room sizes. She think about space for her piano and size of oriental ran she would drop on the floor. When I am thinking about room size I am thinking mostly about ability of LF channel Melquiades to stay in class A. 
 
After seeing many properties I slightly changed my mind about the room I would like to have:  I do not want now large room. I rather want a moderate room but nicely integrated/isolated in the rest of house. I did sea few examples and I like it a lot. The Idea is that the room is kind of isolated but has an open access to anything else and do not feel like dedicated. As now I am thinking about 500 sq feet room. I do not think that I will go initials for midbass horn: I will have a lot on my plate this year. So it will be bass array towers to drive the room LF. The key question is what will be driving the bass array towers? I am not sure that Melquiades LF channel will be able to drive 500 sq feet room that has open escape for LF. So, I would need more power or perhaps preferably another channel. I might let my current arrays to care midbass where Milq will be able still help and then introduce another ULF (perhaps with 4 Aura 18 drivers). Or I might let my current array to care the ULF and then make another midbass direct radiator channel. Both directions will be fine to me with my very little bias to second solution. It might be interesting to make another set of bass array on the same Scan Speak drivers that I like so much or it might be with to go with vintage drivers. I do not exactly have experience to make good midbass with direct radiator, perhaps I need to experiment and to learn. 
 
I know for sure that I would like to separate Midbass and lower bass. Well, let see how it goes… We are currently negotiation a property that we like and if our offer get accepted then I will know more what kind room I will have. It very much might be the last listening room I will ever have… Aren’t we all tell to ourselves this?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 34
Post ID: 22514
Reply to: 22513
What Comes Naturally
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, perhaps your ScanSpeak arrays are a +/- natural fit for mid-bass? If you used them for that you might also push them down a little until you got your ULF solution. The "nice" thing about this is, you might use something relatively simple to drive the ULF, also the ULF box(es) might even be fairly "small", and it/they might wind up anywhere, meaning, you would not necessarily have to put those speakers right out with the others.

Good luck with your offer!


Best regards,
Paul
02-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 35
Post ID: 22515
Reply to: 22514
It will be probably two bass channels.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Romy, perhaps your ScanSpeak arrays are a +/- natural fit for mid-bass? If you used them for that you might also push them down a little until you got your ULF solution. The "nice" thing about this is, you might use something relatively simple to drive the ULF, also the ULF box(es) might even be fairly "small", and it/they might wind up anywhere, meaning, you would not necessarily have to put those speakers right out with the others.

Good luck with your offer!
I do not feel that ScanSpeak arrays are natural fit for mid-bass. Since they, in context of a larger room, will be exert more then I use them before (when I did not have midbass horns) then I feel that hay might be not as good as before. I might be mistaken but it would be nice to use paper suspended drivers for Midbass. Anyhow, I do know that I most likely will not be able to cover from one array the lower and midbass channels in larger room. It would be nice if I were but it won’t happens…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 36
Post ID: 22517
Reply to: 22515
In That Case...
fiogf49gjkf0d
To be clear, I did not see the ScanSpeak arrays as more than mid-bass possibilities, at least over the long haul. However, only you know the room, so really just tossing it out there with respect to mid-bass power capabilities of those arrays. With more power on hand, I generally think of 15" paper drivers for mid/upper bass, and "how many" depends on the size of the room, openings, treatments, etc. But with 15" drivers and big rooms also comes "back EMF"... To avoid the "soupy" bass in a big rooms might take several drivers, and some power. Any way you look at it, one gets fewer octaves/driver at LF.



Paul S
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 37
Post ID: 22520
Reply to: 22515
The game is on.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, we have a first step through, our offer is accepted. I do have a very clear picture what my new listening room will be. For now I do not see any midbass horns, kind of step back but it will be other areas of advancement about which I care more for now. There is a twist in that new home – this is a type of home where we want live to the rest of our lives and it means we will not be planning to return to your current home. That makes me to say bye-bye to our current listening room, the great midbass horns and to the rest that was done in the house. It will be for sure a sentimental leaving probably with adagio from B7 playing… 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 38
Post ID: 22521
Reply to: 22520
Mazel Tov!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Good for you! God bless your family and your new home!


Best regards,
Paul S
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 39
Post ID: 22522
Reply to: 22521
Great news
fiogf49gjkf0d
Congratulations! I wish the best for you and your family in this new move.

The little apartment you had downtown sounded phenomenal with the arrays doing bass. Maybe just double up on those? Taking the infra bass from them will let them breath better too. Like you said make a separate channel for infra bass with those crazy Aura drivers?

Maybe its time to get a dog?
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 85
Joined on 09-18-2005
Post #: 40
Post ID: 22523
Reply to: 22522
Wonderful!
fiogf49gjkf0d
In Vedic time it was said that
"Only when you feel joy do you sacrifice. 
You must not sacrifice when you are prey to suffering. 
Sacrifice only when you feel joy. 
But you have to know joy. 
Joy is fullness."
Surely you are ready for that last B7. 
And many of us will join you to bid a fond farewell of the mighty horns,
and offer you much gratitude for sharing so generously. 
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2925302  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2144253  07-26-2009
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