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08-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,156
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 21
Post ID: 21883
Reply to: 21882
Driver Comfort Zone
fiogf49gjkf0d
Murat, that's a lot to ask from one driver. I thought that any time the "un-aided" driver craps out or acts weird, it's time to think about a crossover, and/or some sort of "assistance" for that driver. The great thing about horns is, they can passively boost flagging low end. But this comes at the cost of a lot of rote experimentation to hear how the driver/horn combination "really sounds", versus HornResp or some other "theoretical model". One might say this necessary experimantation gets "inconvenient" as the horn size increases. Another thing to remember is, it's not just a matter of adjusting SPL, since, in many cases, driver distortion goes up as it aproaches and exceeds its "natural" limits. I do like the idea of putting a paper driver in a horn near those frequencies, but all bets are off with regards to how the Line Magnetic or similar paper driver would react to being loaded by a horn; this is no "gimmie". In any case, if you do get useful results with the paper driver, you will have to turn right around and integrate it back into the rest of the system. The big commercial JBL and Altec compression drivers will go down, all right, if you have the patience and the resources to trial-and-error giant horns, not to mention the space to integrate them into your listening room. I think the old commercial horns for these drivers are hard to find, and probably not useful for music in the home. Also, the old commercial drivers will probably need some work for in-home use, if you are in a position to do this, as well. For the well-funded, the dream of the giant Goto and Ale drivers is, they they might be "plug and play" for home use, a blessing it's hard to overrate.

Just to be clear, in a previous post to you I did not mention DSP as an actual, working option for a serious system. Rather, I meant to say that the "need for it" is an indication that one has already strayed too far off the beaten path. IMO, if you really do plan to go this way you might just as well stop working so hard on the system, since DSP will in any case "level" any problems, like "tactical" nuclear weapons.


Best regards,
Paul S
08-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 21884
Reply to: 21882
I have other projects...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
… but also interesting to discuss fundamental frequency range.I still belive that this range should be as wide as possible - something like 200-300 to 3000-4000Hz.I've found interesting thread here about experiments with this range, but they ended up with nothing.As I understand - because of the size of horn capable to do 300Hz.
Romy, do you still plan some experiements in this field ?Interesting to try GOTO SG 555PS or JBL2490 to see if 200-500Hz range is better to get from compression driver in proper horn.
I got some promising measurements of Line Magnetic 555W (WE 555 clone) and thinking why not to try it ?
   
I think I have written somewhere about JBL2490. I do not remember now the result but they did not make it. I do not feel that fundamental range has to be that wide. It for sure could be if it is your objective and I am sure you have your reasons.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 23
Post ID: 21885
Reply to: 21884
Why 250-4000 range as a whole!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

I do not feel that fundamental range has to be that wide. It for sure could be if it is your objective and I am sure you have your reasons.
For now I have only theoretical reasons.If to consider frequency range of the orchestra, we have highest levels in 500-1000Hz range and outside 250-4000Hz range levels drop 10db/octave.All major tones of most of the instruments are also in this range.So, the idea to keep this range as a whole without overlaying by different drivers looks very reasonable.When crossing at 1000Hz around this frequency we have two drivers playing same note of instrument which means we have 2 instruments instead of one.Outside 250-4000 range we have only harmonics and duplicating them is not a big problem, especially at -10db level.That is why my concept for now is to try to get this range as a whole.
08-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 24
Post ID: 21886
Reply to: 21883
No DSP for sure
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Murat, that's a lot to ask from one driver. 
1000-12 000 is 3.5 octaves.300-3000 is a bit less.
In any case, if you do get useful results with the paper driver, you will have to turn right around and integrate it back into the rest of the system. The big commercial JBL and Altec compression drivers will go down, all right, if you have the patience and the resources to trial-and-error giant horns, not to mention the space to integrate them into your listening room. I think the old commercial horns for these drivers are hard to find, and probably not useful for music in the home. Also, the old commercial drivers will probably need some work for in-home use, if you are in a position to do this, as well. For the well-funded, the dream of the giant Goto and Ale drivers is, they they might be "plug and play" for home use, a blessing it's hard to overrate. 
Line Magnetic is Western Electric 555 replica.
Some info here: http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html
Unfortunately, I don't have any experience or infrastructure to apply any work on drivers, so I choose from modern plug and play drivers.

Just to be clear, in a previous post to you I did not mention DSP as an actual, working option for a serious system. Rather, I meant to say that the "need for it" is an indication that one has already strayed too far off the beaten path. IMO, if you really do plan to go this way you might just as well stop working so hard on the system, since DSP will in any case "level" any problems, like "tactical" nuclear weapons.
Yes, I'm not considering DSP as actual working option for serious system.I can see that digital is already has much less micro-dynamics in compare with analog especially in low range and with any DSP situation become even worse. So, with DSP we can get better curve, but loose what we are fighting for.
08-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 25
Post ID: 21887
Reply to: 21886
New render without TH
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just some of the designers idea SmileTH removed!




MuratsHorn2.jpg
08-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,156
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 21889
Reply to: 21886
Numbers Game
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks for the link, Murat. I have seen the WE copy drivers before, but today I confused the 555 with the 750/753, etc. paper drivers. If the 555 sounds good over anywhere near its claimed frequency range, and if you are in a position to buy 2, why not do it? I absolutely agree with going wide range like you describe, providing doing so swamps other "concerns". Not mentioned, but always looming, is integrating numerous drivers into a coherent speaker (or speakers"), in a room. Best case, a truly wide range driver would be a shortcut with respect to integration and "sonic integrity". Anyway, I hope you can do better than the "tribute" demos offered by too many of the purveyors of the WE copy gear.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 21890
Reply to: 21885
Desagree.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
For now I have only theoretical reasons.If to consider frequency range of the orchestra, we have highest levels in 500-1000Hz range and outside 250-4000Hz range levels drop 10db/octave.All major tones of most of the instruments are also in this range.So, the idea to keep this range as a whole without overlaying by different drivers looks very reasonable.When crossing at 1000Hz around this frequency we have two drivers playing same note of instrument which means we have 2 instruments instead of one.Outside 250-4000 range we have only harmonics and duplicating them is not a big problem, especially at -10db level.That is why my concept for now is to try to get this range as a whole.
Murat, I absolutely do not relate to your reason. In fact I think this is very artificially contrived rezoning.  The true reason is that you like 555 driver that happens to go to 5K and you would like to sell to yourself some kind of theory around it. Let me to give you an argument from my strictly practical filed. In the scenario you proposed you will be having too much sound with identifiable location will be generated from location that will be too high. As the result you will be able to ingrate the sound from much greater region. Alternatively you might go do higher order of filtration but here is where the time consistency will go. Anyhow, it is not live sound but playback and to artificially map instruments to driver is a bit too unnecessary.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 28
Post ID: 21891
Reply to: 21890
Crossover frequency between Fundamental and upper mid
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Murat, I absolutely do not relate to your reason. In fact I think this is very artificially contrived rezoning.  The true reason is that you like 555 driver that happens to go to 5K and you would like to sell to yourself some kind of theory around it. Let me to give you an argument from my strictly practical filed. In the scenario you proposed you will be having too much sound with identifiable location will be generated from location that will be too high. As the result you will be able to ingrate the sound from much greater region. Alternatively you might go do higher order of filtration but here is where the time consistency will go. Anyhow, it is not live sound but playback and to artificially map instruments to driver is a bit too unnecessary.
This is my concern also, so I have not decided about crossover frequency between Fundamental and upper mid.
And I don't like 555 as I never had it. But willing to try.
I don't have my own expirience building horns and this is my first project, so all suggestions are very valuable and I really appreciate them.
I'm pure consumer ended up building my own, because I fail to find what I want.
And because I'm new, I have some crazy not typical ideas which I want to discuss.
One of the crazy idea is not to use any electronic crossover between Fundamental and upper mid.
Fundamental channel will be lowpassed arround 2-3KHz because of the angle to the listener and upper mid will be highpassed by horn.
Pros: no any phase shift between musically most important channels.
Cons: I don't know, I read that it is important to highpass higher than horn frequency, but I don't know why, so I appreciate for comments.
08-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 21892
Reply to: 21891
Sorry it is not what you are looking for,
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, it sound like it is a bit too early for you to making decision about using of the channels if you do not have a basic feeling how the drivers and the loading methods might perform. You build theories about the way how the channels might or might not be used but you in fact has no own reference points about the subject. I do not think that you shall use anybody, including my guidance, but you instead need to develop your own sense of expectations, means, results and gratifications. Do not build anything big, make a upper bass channel, even with  direct radiators, and compliment it with MF horn. Then experiment with MF horns and drivers until you find a setting that you feel is right to you. Only then you can add more channels and shape sound further, but only after you will  acquired own taste in those things.

The whole idea about using an electronic crossover for fundamentals that you described about I do not get, I do not even understand what you meant. What I do insist that it is too premature for you to think about type of the crossovering if you do not have any basic realization of what channels and driver your playback will be using.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 30
Post ID: 21893
Reply to: 21892
Drivers first ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I read somewhere here, when you suggested to start from general configuration and horn design. Do you suggest first to choose drivers ? I have 2m long 100Hz horn which covers 200-4000Hz and I like it very much, but 2m is too long for time-aligned system, so I'm in process of ordering 200Hz LeCleac'h horn...it is "just" 730mm long. I like the idea to cover 300-3000 with one horn, but will have an option to go down to 1000. To try both options, I've ordered 550Hz LeCleac'h horn and going to make 3000Hz horn. Then as I expect, for exact drivers in this horns I'll get optimal crossover frequencies. I also like the idea to use the same driver in both horns, because differences in character of drivers in this range is obvious.
08-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 21894
Reply to: 21893
Add into a mix and few drivers and you have a project for 6 month
fiogf49gjkf0d
If I were in your situation and have 2m long 100Hz horn that I like then I would not dive into any 200Hz la-horns. Make your 200Hz horn up-to let say 1000-1200Hz. Then take your 550Hz and run it from 1200Hz to 10.000 and up. Vice and configure this two driver confutation in order to get good sound. Play with MF drivers to get the best articulation, contrast, dynamic and etc. Then add tweeter and whatever MF section you use. Then, only after then and after spending a few months of listening it as is you can introduce fundamental channel. The channel shall overperfom the top knee of upperbass horn and lower knee of your MF. My estimation, with knowing the driver you use at your upperbass would be that your slow opening horn will give up it’s position at approximately 400hz. How far you need to run fundamental channel is not up to you but up to empirical behavior you will observe. If you feel that your fundamental channel has more interesting sound then your lower MF then the answer is to move up in crossover point.….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,156
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 21895
Reply to: 21891
Location, Location, Location
fiogf49gjkf0d
Murat, this latest information from you has gotten you farther along than you might suppose at this time. From what you now say, it sounds like 6 months would be a minimum amount of time for you to spend getting a sense of the Sound you are after, along with learning how to shape it, in the context of Music you relate to. Perhaps you might get it in 6 months, or you might take 6 years, but I think Romy nailed the most practical progression, based on money you've (apparently) already spent, and he also gave you his very valuable experience of audibly "locating" the drivers/horns, which is not something one wants to wind up with. An alternate route: If you have more money than time or patience for so much DIY at this time, you might get a pair of old ML2s and a pair of Duo Mezzos and "get up to speed" that way, then you might begin to "cross reference" your own ideas/designs. This way you might actually enjoy some Music as you learn about shaping the Sound of it. Despite so many here seem to be "doing their own thing", I think most of us started out with "store bought" gear and slowly "transformed" it into our present, "personalized" systems. Speaking for myself, I spent over 40 years messing with hi-fi before getting my ML2s and finding this site, and sometimes it feels like I've learned more in the past 9 years than I did in the previous 40+ years. Of course, I am still trying to learn more. At the same time, I insist on immersing in Music, for its own sake, and without this I know I would soon lose interest in hi-fi.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 33
Post ID: 21896
Reply to: 21894
2m is just too big
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
If I were in your situation and have 2m long 100Hz horn that I like then I would not dive into any 200Hz la-horns. Make your 200Hz horn up-to let say 1000-1200Hz. Then take your 550Hz and run it from 1200Hz to 10.000 and up. Vice and configure this two driver confutation in order to get good sound. Play with MF drivers to get the best articulation, contrast, dynamic and etc. Then add tweeter and whatever MF section you use. Then, only after then and after spending a few months of listening it as is you can introduce fundamental channel. The channel shall overperfom the top knee of upperbass horn and lower knee of your MF. My estimation, with knowing the driver you use at your upperbass would be that your slow opening horn will give up it’s position at approximately 400hz. How far you need to run fundamental channel is not up to you but up to empirical behavior you will observe. If you feel that your fundamental channel has more interesting sound then your lower MF then the answer is to move up in crossover point.….
Well, I'll be happy to keep this horn, but it is really too big to fit with other channels.As I understand clearly, you drop the idea of multicell horn mostly because it also was too big to integrate together with other channels.This is the render of my idea to keep this horn:

MuratsFirstIdea.jpg

Anyway, I'll follow your suggestion and play with current setup to move crossover frequency between MF and HF down from 3000hz to 1000Hz.
My 550Hz horns are just done by Martin from AzuraHorn and tomorrow will be sent to me, so very soon I'll have chance. I ordered with 1" and 1.5" throat to play with different drivers.

550Azura1.JPG

With LF in my current setup I don't have space to play as there is a gap between capabilities of current LF and MF, so I'm waiting for big 2m horn which is capable to play up to 500Hz.
08-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 34
Post ID: 21897
Reply to: 21895
I think I have an orchesta in my head
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Murat, this latest information from you has gotten you farther along than you might suppose at this time. From what you now say, it sounds like 6 months would be a minimum amount of time for you to spend getting a sense of the Sound you are after, along with learning how to shape it, in the context of Music you relate to. Perhaps you might get it in 6 months, or you might take 6 years, but I think Romy nailed the most practical progression, based on money you've (apparently) already spent, and he also gave you his very valuable experience of audibly "locating" the drivers/horns, which is not something one wants to wind up with. An alternate route: If you have more money than time or patience for so much DIY at this time, you might get a pair of old ML2s and a pair of Duo Mezzos and "get up to speed" that way, then you might begin to "cross reference" your own ideas/designs. This way you might actually enjoy some Music as you learn about shaping the Sound of it. Despite so many here seem to be "doing their own thing", I think most of us started out with "store bought" gear and slowly "transformed" it into our present, "personalized" systems. Speaking for myself, I spent over 40 years messing with hi-fi before getting my ML2s and finding this site, and sometimes it feels like I've learned more in the past 9 years than I did in the previous 40+ years. Of course, I am still trying to learn more. At the same time, I insist on immersing in Music, for its own sake, and without this I know I would soon lose interest in hi-fi.
I had different speakers from highend brands and was never happy. My last search was close to end up with Focal Utopia (good highs, terrible lows but at least something) but once I heard this 2m horn I got it and not looking around any more. I heard Cessaro Alpha (my friend has and now he is upgrading to Gamma), Vox Olympian (during Munich expo), but I'm not going to buy speakers anymore. After some experiments with crossover, I decided to build my own, because I feel that I know exactly what sound I want. Like Romy told about Karayan's second orchestra in his head SmileI'm software engineer, not hardware, so this is really a challange for me, but I believe that with help of very well experienced community I can make it.I understand that I need my own experience, but I hope that because of others experience I can have some boost.BTW, updated design with removed front buffle and without tapped horn is ready...quite nice and simple Smile

MuratsHorn3.jpg
08-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 21898
Reply to: 21897
I think it is a bit too early.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
I had different speakers from highend brands and was never happy. 

Do not worry, you won’t be happy with your new speakers as well. It is a little dirty secret that no one told you yet: speakers do not give happiness. 
 
 Murataltuev wrote:
My last search was close to end up with Focal Utopia (good highs, terrible lows but at least something) but once I heard this 2m horn I got it and not looking around any more. I heard Cessaro Alpha (my friend has and now he is upgrading to Gamma), Vox Olympian (during Munich expo), but I'm not going to buy speakers anymore. After some experiments with crossover, I decided to build my own, because I feel that I know exactly what sound I want.

 
To know exactly what you want it a very good thing. If you do build your own speaker then there is another important factor: to know how to get there. This one a bit tricky as there is no definitive ways and it would requires some experimentation with yourself.
 
Regarding your last drawing. The way how you depicted the frame you will not have time-alimented. Look at my thread about Mocondo Frame
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=3339
 
….and do not discard Jessie’s ideas in his own thread.
 
I personally feel that I tis a bit premature for you to think about the frame. I do agree that is very pleasurable to draw the sketches and visualize the future system but at this point you do not know what kind drivers you will be using, how you going to use them and what kind horns you will be employing. You do not even have a final decision how many channels you will be loading into the frame. So I would advise to finals the acoustic system entity and only then suspend and efforts to put them in attractive design. BTW, the ideas of fame you had above will not work from structural perspective. Those “hanging” horns are incredibly heavy and you clearly have insufficient structural support.
 

When I say that it is a bit too early for you to think about the frame then do not take it little. You can do whatever you want BUT you are wasting your time as I absolutely assure you that you will change your mind about what you want and how you want AFTGER you actually start to listening the channels and decide what  stays and what is goes away for your installation. So you will 100000 times change your mind, so any todays “idea” will become irrelevant in future. Trust me, I was there.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 36
Post ID: 21900
Reply to: 21898
Right drivers first
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:


Do not worry, you won’t be happy with your new speakers as well. It is a little dirty secret that no one told you yet: speakers do not give happiness. 

In my case only speakers can give me happiness, because with electronics I don't see any way to upgrade.I had (bought and then sold half price or even lower Smile) already almost every highend DAC (EmmLabs, dCS Scarlatti, Berkeley Alpha, MSB Platinum, Antelope Zodiac, Trinity DAC (this one not sold yet)) and some good amplifiers (Gryphon Colosseum, Tidal Impact (also not sold yet)) to finially choose the best for my taste. Now I just need best speakers Smile

To know exactly what you want it a very good thing. If you do build your own speaker then there is another important factor: to know how to get there. This one a bit tricky as there is no definitive ways and it would requires some experimentation with yourself.

Sure. Only results of my own experiments can guide me. I agree.

Regarding your last drawing. The way how you depicted the frame you will not have time-alimented. Look at my thread about Mocondo Frame
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=3339

Thank you for the link. I'll study it.
 

….and do not discard Jessie’s ideas in his own thread.
 

Jessie Dazzle Project ?Great thread, thank you!
I personally feel that I tis a bit premature for you to think about the frame. I do agree that is very pleasurable to draw the sketches and visualize the future system but at this point you do not know what kind drivers you will be using, how you going to use them and what kind horns you will be employing. You do not even have a final decision how many channels you will be loading into the frame. So I would advise to finals the acoustic system entity and only then suspend and efforts to put them in attractive design. BTW, the ideas of fame you had above will not work from structural perspective. Those “hanging” horns are incredibly heavy and you clearly have insufficient structural support.

Thinking about frame is important to understand what is possible and what is not.For example, this drawings crearly shows that combining two 2m horns is almost impossible.And yes, it is very pleasurable Smile
When I say that it is a bit too early for you to think about the frame then do not take it little. You can do whatever you want BUT you are wasting your time as I absolutely assure you that you will change your mind about what you want and how you want AFTGER you actually start to listening the channels and decide what  stays and what is goes away for your installation. So you will 100000 times change your mind, so any todays “idea” will become irrelevant in future. Trust me, I was there.
I trust you because your experience is unique. I don't know if any other similar structured knowledge base exists in the world...I think not.So, I very much appreciate your comments. Thank you.
When I got my first 3 way horn speakers from one of the famous DIYer here, I stil was not happy with lowest bass and highest highs.So I built tapped horn and bought many different HF-drivers to get better highs.BMS, Faital, Fostex, Beyma, JBL 077 and even very expensive TAD-ET703 (same VOX Olympian has).They all was much worse than my very old Jensen!Only with JBL LE085 I got what I wanted, but still missing highest highs, so I've ordered RAAL Lazy Ribbon as this is the only driver with sensitivity around 110db at 14kHz!I've also ordered latest JBL D2430K, just because I like JBL LE085 and interesting to see how is the modern JBL in compare with vintage one.

My next step is to try different drivers for MF.I have GPA 288 (Altec clone) and I like the tone, but it can't go lower than 500Hz even in 2m horn!Small Atlas PD-5VH (Klipsch K-55 clone) with 1" throat gives 300Hz easily in this horn!So, I want to try some 4" diaphragm drivers with 1.5" throat which can go lower, like JBL 2447 or 2451-52-53.May be LM 555W (WE555 clone) is also good, but very expensive...more expensive than new Vitavox S2.New Vitavox S2 is also very nice driver...VOX Olympian mid-range sounds amazing for me during this year Munich Show.May be I'll end up with Vitavox S2 like you.BTW, the DAC I use after all I had is Lavry Gold Smile
08-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 37
Post ID: 21901
Reply to: 21900
Once you find it, stick to the path...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Putting together a speaker system that ticks all your boxes is a lot like doing anything else well:  it is fine to experiment in order to find your range and learn your options but once you choose a path you must stick to it.  Chopping and changing is not going to get you a good system, but once something takes your fancy then it is time to build a system around that.  This may be the midrange or the bass or the tweeter or something else, but it will be something.  Then you will be able to revisit a lot of your past decisions and equipment and ideas because you made judgements based on the context "at the time", and not under the new context of your playback.  

For example the ET-703 may not have worked for you for any number of reasons that have little to do with the driver itself.  Look at Romy and the Vitavox S2 and how many iterations he has been through to get it performing just as he wants:  he has tailored the nature of the amplification (from fullrange two stage SET to single stage DSET to DHT DSET); he has tailored how it is used (frequency range and horn profile and crossover points); he has tailored how the driver is mechanically tuned (diaphragm types and alignment and tuning for harmonics).  Just plonking a pair of S2 or any other driver/horn/dac/etc. into a system and judging its worth on the immediate change in sound character is rarely going to deliver all the results that are possible because its performance is dependant on so many things other than itself.  But if you manage to find something that "does it for you" then I think that it will be time to follow that path and try to get the rest of the system surrounding it to compliment and augment it.  There are so many paths, each with their own technical and other shortcomings that one cannot try them all and eventually it will come down to picking something and making it work as best you can.

Your approach, however admirable, is a long one...think years and years before you are "there".

08-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 38
Post ID: 21902
Reply to: 21901
Why not ET-703
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, there are a lot of paths.I can see that many DIYers are very much stick on crossovers, changing capacitors, choosing slopes in digital filters - FIR or not FiR and so on.I know very experienced people who now say that with digital crossover he doesn't need to care about quality of amplifier, that 3 poor chinese D-class amplifiers works better with digital crossover than single SET with passive crossover.And they don't care about choosing right driver and choose them according spec only!Well, this is also a path.My path is only experiments. I hear everybody, but then I need to try and decide.ET-703 has great reviews around. But it just can't give right tone under 8khz and gives almost nothing higher than 12khz.So, there is just no use for it in my system. 1.5 octave is nothing.May be one day I decide that I needs 7-8 way speaker with digital 48db/octave FIR, then I use it.Also with all my experiments with HF drivers I come up to idea, that for HF I don't need horn.I even considered the idea to get some conventional tweeter for highs with separate amp to compensate sensitivity, but then I found RAAL.If RAAL will not work for me, than I go for top SEAS...I heard it ones during Munich Show and was very satisfied.So, it takes few month of experiments to decide:
1. I need separate driver for 12k+ range
2. It will be RAAL or I go for conventional tweeter.
How much time I'll need to decide about other ranges I don't know and don't care.This is our hobby and process is even more important than result Smile
08-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 39
Post ID: 21903
Reply to: 21902
204Hz LeCleac'h can be smaller ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have one question, may be someone can suggest.My lower mid channel starts from 400Hz, so I need at least 200Hz horn.For now I'm using 2m long 100Hz horn, but because I don't know how to integrate this horn physically in my new project, I'm going to use smaller round one and really like the idea to try LeCleac'h.Romy mentioned somewere here that disadvantage of LeCleac'h is the size.So, this is the profile of 204Hz LeCleac'h:
204.jpg

1m in diameter is also impossible to integrate, but what if I make 700mm (blue line) ?How important is the rest of the part of horn's profile ?Can I drop it ?
08-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 40
Post ID: 21904
Reply to: 21903
Don't drop it
fiogf49gjkf0d
That "curl" beyond 350mm in your diagram is what the LeCleach profile is all about...drop it and it is not a LeCleach anymore (it is more or less Tractrix) and the benefits of that profile to do with the horns lower range are lost.  Besides, a 1m diameter horn is just fine to integrate because it get the midrange at the right height, but I would try to go lower than 200Hz because the frequencies that we use to localise sound go down to about or just below 100Hz or so and it will probably help imaging.


EDIT:  Not sure we are on the same page regarding frequency range for this horn
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