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07-27-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 21
Post ID: 21128
Reply to: 21127
Someone to Watch Over Me
fiogf49gjkf0d
It's the 21st Century version of the Duo Art (of course it will play back, as well, or, it will, soon enough). No doubt the great pianists of today will line up to lay down their tracks on/for this Roland.




Paul S
08-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 21157
Reply to: 18504
The piano saga is continuing
fiogf49gjkf0d

Nope, we eventfully do not get the family Yamaha C7 and now we are on the market and looking for a piano .  From what we have seen and learned we now are looking for Mason and Hamlin of 6.3 feet made before mid 30s of 20 century. They need to be rebuilt and the rebuilding is the bitch. It tune out that re-builder not true know what they do and many of them kill proper sound of instrument. So, we are looking for an accidentally good sounding piano. Taking about accidentally good sounding piano. Believe me of not I have met as phenomenally good sounding sound piano and it was used and rebuild Yamaha C6 from 90s. I never heard that Yamaha might so wonderfuly-dark and mellow, almost golden. The sales people presented is some kind of “rebuilding fluke” and asked very much money for it – good 20K more than the instrument worth. Honestly I do not blame them. 
 
My poor wifey is very pissed with me as according to her with my sonic demands and my unwillingness to pay $50K for a damn piano she feel that we never find a piano to buy.  Well, it is given – I am pain in ass shopper but I responded that I was shopping for wife for 42 years and then god a pure-gold-wife for bargain price. She was contemplated for while if it was a compliment of insult and then suggested that I am an imp. I need to look in a dictionary what it means...



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
c1ferrari
Southern California
Posts 9
Joined on 10-23-2011

Post #: 23
Post ID: 21158
Reply to: 21157
Pity
fiogf49gjkf0d
"Nope, we eventfully do not get the family Yamaha C7..."

Sadness.


"My poor wifey is very pissed with me...Well, it is given – I am pain in ass shopper but I responded that I was shopping for wife for 42 years and then got a pure-gold-wife for a bargain price. She was contemplated for while if it was a compliment of insult and then suggested that I am an imp. I need to look in a dictionary what it means..."

Too funny :-)



Very best regards,
Sam
08-16-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 21169
Reply to: 21157
Interesting.
fiogf49gjkf0d
We are keep looking for our new piano, did not get anything yet but have learned a lot of interesting things. Currently we are bidding for a very nice 1909 Mason & Hamlin not far from us. It is nicely restored instrument and we brought out technician to on the seller home to look at the piano. That was so much fan! The ability to adjust some mechanical gismos in the piano and to shape sound in deniable way for some reasons made me almost horny.  The fan part that the technician actually was listening my feedback and made adjusts in accordance with what I want to hear. Where the hell can I find a technician like this in audio?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-28-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 21186
Reply to: 21169
Humidity control piano vs. room.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hey, what do you know? We got that 1908 Mason and Hamlin. It was delivered last night and I have made Any to play for me my Mikael Tariverdiev's Memories sonata. The Mason does need some work and our technician told that she will do it in a week of so... " after the piano get use to the new room". I generally like the sound of this instrument and it shall be much better after  some minor problems will be address. IT does not have that "glowing" lower register of larger pianos but I think this all size that we need in our current room.

I am thinking now about a climate control. For the piano. It is most in the lace we leave. The Dampp-Chaser systems are fine but they control humidity in a small zone under soundboard and by passive methods. It is also $650. For this money I am considering to put in use a whole room humidity control system. The house has hot water heating and center air-conditioning, and a huge basement under piano room. I do not think it should be hard to put some kind of stationary humidity control system in basement...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 21190
Reply to: 21186
A Piano good for Audio guy?
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is kind of unexpected to me but over the last 2 weeks I have developed a great interest in our new piano. Nope, I still do not play peas and have no interest to learn but I do find a lot of pleasure to make our piano to sound in the way I want. I have learning a lot about piano voicing techniques and I have to tell you that it is very interesting subject, at least it fascinates me. Ironically the make a piano to sound in the way how I feel it need to be is not different from audio. The concept is very much the  same: your take a random resale and shape it into the sound you feel it has to me. Even though the methods are different but the methods are kind of irrelevant., What is relevant to know how to listen and how to interpret the heard. There is even something more. I do think that dealing with this piano and trying to understand Sound that is coming from it makes me more experience and more disseminative audio listener. I would be very interested in the end of my piano journey, with all methods available to me, if  I will be able to make my 100 years old Meson to sound in the way how I think it shall sound, namely to make piano good for Audio guy, I am very interested what would pianist would say about the sound of the instrument. I do not mean that it will have the action type will be the same as it was on Glenn Gould's infamous Steinway CD318 but I do think about a very specific character of Sound, let see how it works...

Mason_Corner.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 21198
Reply to: 21190
A new challenge.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I had yesterday our technician to make a first pass over the Mason and now it is eventually is in tune. It is become playable I have discovered a interring challenge. As I said before the acoustic setting for the piano is perfect in out listening room, even my piano tuner was super pleased and said that she did not fight with acoustic at all. However, now the challenge is to make the piano to sound balanced in the room and this is not the matter of acoustics as I know it. The total tone and character of sound is very nice but the balance across octave as it hear in the room is kind of challenging.

As the piano lead closed, well the only front is open, then sound is properly balanced but the last two bass octave are very underdeveloped. The last few keys, that has single string, sound juts laughable. As the lead up then the bass gets the full size and character but then the piano drives a horrendously exaggerated midrange to the room. As I make the lid to be open less and less then the MF become more balance but I am loosing the bass size.

So, I wonder if it is practicable to put a thick layer of acoustic foam UNDER the piano lid in order if the lead open then the first reflection from the piano deck to the room would be less prominent at midrange. As far as I understand the subject that would be a reasonable solution but I wonder how pianists deal with it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 28
Post ID: 21199
Reply to: 21198
JUst deal with it?
fiogf49gjkf0d
The really serious piano players I know either ignore it or buy a different piano. I have NEVER worked with a pianist that tried to make a piano something it currently wasn't. I think that when you are obcessed with your playing there are no synapses in your brain available for audio analysis.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2014/09/04/345576795/glenn-gould-in-rapture?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=classical
I think Romy, that you once accused musicians of hearing differently because they hear what they would do, not what is really happening. Applies here too!
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I had yesterday our technician to make a first pass over the Mason and now it is eventually is in tune. It is become playable I have discovered a interring challenge. As I said before the acoustic setting for the piano is perfect in out listening room, even my piano tuner was super pleased and said that she did not fight with acoustic at all. However, now the challenge is to make the piano to sound balanced in the room and this is not the matter of acoustics as I know it. The total tone and character of sound is very nice but the balance across octave as it hear in the room is kind of challenging.

As the piano lead closed, well the only front is open, then sound is properly balanced but the last two bass octave are very underdeveloped. The last few keys, that has single string, sound juts laughable. As the lead up then the bass gets the full size and character but then the piano drives a horrendously exaggerated midrange to the room. As I make the lid to be open less and less then the MF become more balance but I am loosing the bass size.

So, I wonder if it is practicable to put a thick layer of acoustic foam UNDER the piano lid in order if the lead open then the first reflection from the piano deck to the room would be less prominent at midrange. As far as I understand the subject that would be a reasonable solution but I wonder how pianists deal with it.

The Cat



Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 21200
Reply to: 21199
Why not?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rowuk wrote:
The really serious piano players I know either ignore it or buy a different piano. I have NEVER worked with a pianist that tried to make a piano something it currently wasn't. I think that when you are obcessed with your playing there are no synapses in your brain available for audio analysis. 
http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2014/09/04/345576795/glenn-gould-in-rapture?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=classical 
I think Romy, that you once accused musicians of hearing differently because they hear what they would do, not what is really happening. Applies here too! 

Hm, I can’t imagine that someone would ignore or buy a different piano for THAT reasons.  The pianos does what it does. The room acoustics does what it does to piano. From all of that perspectives the result it fine.  The lid is a variable that greatly changes the piano balance in this room. Should I blame piano or to blame the room? If to presume that piano and room are invariable constants in this equation and with one of other lid position the equation produces an acceptable result then I think I clearly need to learn how to deal with variable in this game. 
 
If I lover the lid just to clear a few inches then from the piano then I have “some” bass gain and there is no MF reflections from the open lid. However, the full bass bloom of this piano and in this location I get what the lit at least 30% opened. As the id goes up the MF/HF reflection from the lid begin to dominate the room. I do think that in this situation to put some diffuser at the bottom of the lid sounds reasonable to me. I need to admit that I never saw people do it and I very much sound like in idiots to musicians. What however I do know that what I hear is not fantasies.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 30
Post ID: 21202
Reply to: 21200
The interface with a piano is not the ears, rather the hands
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
you are very right about the piano being what it is. Piano players ALWAYS comment the action and response of the keyboard initially. The feedback from the instrument to the player is always tactile first. I am convinced that a concert pianist only "hears" the orchestra when they are on stage. Chamber music is perhaps different, there is more interaction of melodic line, dynamic give and take.
The lid of the piano is used to control loudness as well as directivity. The sonics I truly believe are secondary. Perhaps this is the reason that Steinway has almost a monopoly at the top. Bösendorfer spent a lot of effort to deal with increasing the power of low, mid and upper bass (not with the lid), but never got the traction for their efforts.
I am convinced if "audio" events were significant, the lid of the piano would have gotten some automation, a pedal or other mechanical method to use it expressively while playing. As it is still a static, heavy piece of wood, I am sure that audio is not part of the agenda...........


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 302
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 31
Post ID: 21204
Reply to: 21200
Diffuser panel
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am hesitant to reply in this thread since I do not play piano but your struggles with mid/treble balance and lid position triggered a memory of an article I read years ago. I think it concerned Arthur Noxon but it wasn't a tube trap. I believe he also developed some type of  diffuser panels. Anyway there was a discussion of using the panels in the recording studio {I think as a more neutral "vocal booth") and it was mentioned that putting one UNDER the piano smoothed out the treble and upper midrange. Does anyone remember that article? I searched for it but it did not jump up in the results.
09-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 21206
Reply to: 21204
Piano in the audio room.
fiogf49gjkf0d
An audio guy contacted me today with and an interesting note: “can't put a piano in the same room as a hifi”. When I asked why he wrote: “scott's steinway sounding board would 'ring' like crazy. it was my theory about why his tannoys sounded even muddier than they should. To prove it, we played a very short loud 'impulse' in the room, then turn it off and listen. You could hear the piano vibrate like crazy, for a relatively long time.  Definitely not good. I think there is a big difference between even a cello or a guitar doing some vibrating in the room (almost like your 10" tannoy effect, perhaps) and a huge piano board (mud).”

A valid concern. I did express unhappiness 7 years back about bass overtones when I had my guitar sitting in wrong place.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=3840

I had a baby grand in my listening room for 3 years and did not detect problems. Perhaps I am not too observant but I do not think that I noted that my sound went does with arrival of piano. Guitar is very “bad” because it is very narrow bandwidth Helmholtz resonator. A  Piano is another hand is wide bandwidth resistor  and it would be less likely that it will be position at the location when acoustic pressure from Hi- Fi would ignite it. Of cause it is only a theory. Did anybody has any practical problem to integrate piano with audio?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 302
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 33
Post ID: 21207
Reply to: 21206
Thanks
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks for a scientific reason explaining why I prefer solo piano to piano concertos and piano quartets. The other instruments make them ring like a bell. Why didn't I think of it?

How about putting the piano on brass points etc?
09-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 34
Post ID: 21208
Reply to: 21206
Early reflections and the damper pedal
fiogf49gjkf0d
The only issues that I have ever had were putting the piano in a place where the large smooth surfaces did not cause assymmetric reflections that messed with the stereo presentation.
The damper pedal on a piano is "on" when not depressed. The pianos ability to ring is severely coprimised. A guitar, cello, contrabass has no installed damper and rings per design. The damper is the players arm or fingers.
I am sure that Steverinos preference to solo piano has nothing to do with ringing. Any loud playing as a solo instrument would also excite "more" wide band noise if the piano were truly so inferior. The thought did make me smile however. Generally, the real problem with piano is that it is well tempered. This sounds fine alone, but when playing with other "just" tuned instruments, we get sum and difference interference tones. They cause broad band beats that are disturbing to some and part of the art form to others. I feel fortunate that the musicians and composers intentions transcend all of this audiophoolery for my listening. That is probably because my instrument, the trumpet has the most intonation problems of any orchesteal instrument. High Q and very short air column. Not much room for play - especially with a piano.
I would imagine that the piano would be beneficial for a large scale audio system. The soundingboard absorbs resonance and if anything at all, would release a VERY small portion delayed in time. Coupling to the floor is something that the heavy brass wheels do well. For added transmission the brake mechanically couples even more

 Romy the Cat wrote:
An audio guy contacted me today with and an interesting note: “can't put a piano in the same room as a hifi”. When I asked why he wrote: “scott's steinway sounding board would 'ring' like crazy. it was my theory about why his tannoys sounded even muddier than they should. To prove it, we played a very short loud 'impulse' in the room, then turn it off and listen. You could hear the piano vibrate like crazy, for a relatively long time.  Definitely not good. I think there is a big difference between even a cello or a guitar doing some vibrating in the room (almost like your 10" tannoy effect, perhaps) and a huge piano board (mud).”

A valid concern. I did express unhappiness 7 years back about bass overtones when I had my guitar sitting in wrong place.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=3840

I had a baby grand in my listening room for 3 years and did not detect problems. Perhaps I am not too observant but I do not think that I noted that my sound went does with arrival of piano. Guitar is very “bad” because it is very narrow bandwidth Helmholtz resonator. A  Piano is another hand is wide bandwidth resistor  and it would be less likely that it will be position at the location when acoustic pressure from Hi- Fi would ignite it. Of cause it is only a theory. Did anybody has any practical problem to integrate piano with audio?



Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 21209
Reply to: 21208
You are right.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rowuk wrote:
The only issues that I have ever had were putting the piano in a place where the large smooth surfaces did not cause assymmetric reflections that messed with the stereo presentation. 
The damper pedal on a piano is "on" when not depressed. The pianos ability to ring is severely coprimised. A guitar, cello, contrabass has no installed damper and rings per design. The damper is the players arm or fingers. 
I am sure that Steverinos preference to solo piano has nothing to do with ringing. Any loud playing as a solo instrument would also excite "more" wide band noise if the piano were truly so inferior. The thought did make me smile however. Generally, the real problem with piano is that it is well tempered. This sounds fine alone, but when playing with other "just" tuned instruments, we get sum and difference interference tones. They cause broad band beats that are disturbing to some and part of the art form to others. I feel fortunate that the musicians and composers intentions transcend all of this audiophoolery for my listening. That is probably because my instrument, the trumpet has the most intonation problems of any orchesteal instrument. High Q and very short air column. Not much room for play - especially with a piano. 
I would imagine that the piano would be beneficial for a large scale audio system. The soundingboard absorbs resonance and if anything at all, would release a VERY small portion delayed in time. Coupling to the floor is something that the heavy brass wheels do well. For added transmission the brake mechanically couples even more 
   
Rowuk, I very much on the same page with you. I do not buy the idea that piano could "ruin" sound of those Tanoys like it was in the case of my guy above or that it makes too much resonance in case of orchestral /chamber music, like in case of Steverinos. There are a lot of modulations of piano plays let say a quintet but they are acoustical modulation but the "piano board got excited by viola tone". I do not see a problem without piano in listening room. I however do not deny that in some cases a presence of a large hollow piece of furniture would have some impacts. To evaluate a magnitude of this impact is a totally different matter. in my case it is absolutely negligible and even undetectable. In case of others it might be detectable. However, I absolutely do not buy the notion that it might "make a loudspeaker to sound bad". If playback does sound bad then fix the actual problem, not the 0.00000001% of problem that might or not might come from piano.
Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 36
Post ID: 21210
Reply to: 21209
A statement or an apology?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

   
Rowuk, I very much on the same page with you. I do not buy the idea that piano could "ruin" sound of those Tanoys like it was in the case of my guy above or that it makes too much resonance in case of orchestral /chamber music, like in case of Steverinos. There are a lot of modulations of piano plays let say a quintet but they are acoustical modulation but the "piano board got excited by viola tone". I do not see a problem without piano in listening room. I however do not deny that in some cases a presence of a large hollow piece of furniture would have some impacts. To evaluate a magnitude of this impact is a totally different matter. in my case it is absolutely negligible and even undetectable. In case of others it might be detectable. However, I absolutely do not buy the notion that it might "make a loudspeaker to sound bad". If playback does sound bad then fix the actual problem, not the 0.00000001% of problem that might or not might come from piano.
Rgs, Romy

On the other hand, how many really accomplished piano players are really accomplished audio people? Is the piano in many cases "decoration"? In that case, it is easy to blame the piano for all sorts of things - like being bought in the first place...... A Steinway D is a statement in itself however - much like a Macondo - only useful when cared for and played by those with purpose and passion.
The hollow body of the piano is actually (unlike most listening rooms) designed like a violin to be evenly resonant over a great area - a piano with single notes that stick out would not be very useful at all.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 302
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 37
Post ID: 21211
Reply to: 21209
Poor misunderstood old Steverino
fiogf49gjkf0d
Old Steverino only said the GoodSound Club Forum had provided a nice sounding scientific reason to  offer to people upset at his general dislike of piano and orchestra works and preference for solo piano. No longer would he be viewed as a backward and benighted no nothing but now would have the backing of a GoodSound Club Forum authority for his personal preferences. What does Steverino care if it is valid? - only that it sound valid. I have learned from the audio biz That much.
08-12-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 21853
Reply to: 18504
The piano is in use....
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think the piano project turn out to be a huge success. My baby not only starts to play but start to compose. If somebody do not hear a clear harmony in this then you have no ears.

 



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-12-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 21855
Reply to: 21853
Les etudes de Thomas
fiogf49gjkf0d
Delightful! And such perfect touch...
Our little boy would occasionally manage something along those lines... he also loves to bob his head along, Stevie Wonder style, while pretending to to play along to the electric piano demo pieces (some Liszt, fur Elise etc).
One day, we were in St Pancras station and they have a number of knackered old upright pianos that anyone is free to play:www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn-KEbvCckg
Anyway, some charming old fella was playing Jingle Bells and other stuff for a few assembled kids, and he asked Lucas what his favourite song was.... you should have seen the guy's face when our 3 year old asked him if he could play "Liebestraum by France List"...
Can't wait to see what Thomas manages in a few years time...best,cv
08-12-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 40
Post ID: 21856
Reply to: 21853
Lovely...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I think the piano project turn out to be a huge success. My baby not only starts to play but start to compose. If somebody do not hear a clear harmony in this then you have no ears.

 


I showed this to my 4yo daughter this morning as she says quite sincerely "he is very good - I like his song".  This is the girl that sings to me each morning while we ride into town on our double-up bicycle.
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