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10-26-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 241
Post ID: 26934
Reply to: 26928
To answer your question
 Paul S wrote:

It seems from following these threads that no one so far has been content to stay focused on recreating the accidental success of the original Dunnoy/Dannoy. Is this because no one can actually recreate the original, or is it because everyone has issues with these speakers that they'd prefer to improve on? For instance, don't we always say that one wants 20 dB headroom. Does this mean people are happy listening at 70 dB, or does it mean that something about the Danoy "offsets" the need for headroom? I still can't figure out how you can push the Red down to 50Hz with the original configuration and also get the headroom? While multiple Red drivers sans tweeters "sounds logical", it would take some work to avoid serious combing.

I have no idea what was the original accidental success, only those present there know. So I use my inner reference. The first sounds were not breathtaking, but the sound started to grow on me (i.e. I was missing it) and after changing the floor has become very very interesting and magnetizing. What I'm missing is some air, some breathing. There is sth like a veil I'd like to remove. I don't know yet if that is an inherently limited dynamical range of this simple configuration  or other factors of my implementation:

1. The room: Not easy at all, pretty dead even when empty, complicated shape. Plus I've never had any speakers here (I moved few yrs ago and was concentrated on my Staxes) so only learning the room. After changing the floor the things have improved (=more alive). I start to research proper room treatment now. I also don't have much freedom in speaker location, which may not be the best in already difficult room.

2. Electronics: In lieu of a better one, I'm temporarily using Yamaha C1 pre which I got with B2. I suspect it is killing the sound. It was for sure killing bass in one of the channels due to a dirty pot. I plan to change it to 801A DIY. Also my B2 had dirty input pots and bypassing all that crap did help to open up the sound a bit.
3. The Staxes set the reference line very high, or perhaps better said, somewhere else. The direct and immediate connection to the musical material is hard to beat.
Other random comments:
1. When you look at the speaker response (e.g. my curves up the thread) a natural question arises if you can add some reinforcement below 50Hz? It does not feel much like one needs it when listening but a temptation grows to extend this magic of Dannoy bass even lower. That's why there is a lot of talking of adding drivers, active or passive, increasing the dias etc etc. In my personal context I was also hoping to get more of that "breathing" with a proper LF. Comments of the guys who had time to experiment with adding a LF are not very encouraging though - hard to extend the bass without spoiling the elegance of the sound.

2. IIRC, Bill measured 90+dB before distortion. Subjectively, they can play loud but "not into the face". In any case, in my room the sound of big orchestras is missing some scale and size. If this is inherent to this simple design, my room, my electronics, or a mix of all, I cannot say until I at least change the pre and play with the room.

Hope this answers a bit.











Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-26-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 26
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 242
Post ID: 26935
Reply to: 26934
Reverb Injection
Hey N-set are you running reverb injection?
10-26-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 26
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 243
Post ID: 26936
Reply to: 26928
The focus of recreating the accidental success
Hy Paul, I agree with your comment about the tone of the passive radiator if it runs to the mid range. This is the point of the SS8565. the combo of the crazy stiff cone and the special surround works phenomenally well to stay linear. It is even better when it is not driven! It does not add any tone, none at all and that is the point. It just rides the tannoy to bring the Fs way down without fu..... sh.. up. The bonus is it allows a tiny box. These tannoys, well maybe the 15 mostly, were designed to be loaded by huge rear horns which would pull the Fs way down. If you just load one with a few cubic feet box and listen is it not how the designers meant it to be, i believe. I'm not one to use passive radiators historically but had the drivers on hand to try Romys kinky config, So I did. The SS pulls the tannoy Fs way down and you get a really fun bottom octave in a few cubic ft.   If you have a wife, Dunnoy will make her happy and you will have sex again.

Regarding blending a passive radiator do you mean up or down? I learnt how easy it is to blend it up by literally slapping it in a box with the tannoy. using the 8565 that is. Blending down well thats proving pretty difficult. It doesnt have to be a tannoy btw. try loading any good vintage wide band driver with the SS8565 in a tiny box. And i suppose it doesn't have to be the SS865 but i dont know of other woofers that offer the phenominal stiffness of the cone and the transparency of that suspension. It is a pretty unique driver. i would be keen to learn of a more economical solution because buying them from australia to just run passively is unfair expensive.

I never though of the difference in the smaller tannoys to the bigger as a differenece in jump from the cone fundamentals. I like that distinction. I only know the 10 and the 15 and they sure do sound different

Its not hard to recreate the magic with this set up. If you really want to critique the assertion that the combo of the tannoy and the scanspeak is worthy or not, do this - 
1. organise yorself a vintage tannoy. not new HPD crap but proper alnico accordian surround vintage tannoy. red obviously is better but gold will do in my opinion if you want to see Dunnoys hot legs. (It is the coherence in the xover region of the vintage tannoys creating very wide coherent bandwidthe, combined with the speed and softness of the alnico motor and the sound of the cone and voice coil that excels IMO. Not many drivers or combination of drivers get all that right so readily. Vintage tannoy makes things easy in that it handles 8 octaves for you in a very linear and coherent fashion. linear in not just frequency but dynamically. The SS8565 give you another octave on the bottom for free)
2. Listen to your tannoy and make sure it is not injured. self explanatory really. Get another one if it is not perfecto
3. Organise yourself a SS8565 and marry it to your not injured vintage not HPD or any other new crap tannoy, in a way smaller than what your rational mind tells you box.
4. listen and fix your box if it is crap.
5. organise yourself reverb injection and forget all your room woes (and most of your other audio woes too for that matter)
6. take the day off

If you deviate from the above I cant guarantee you will meet Dunnoy...

BTW Paul, I dont think anyone disagrees about the headroom. In fact i think the focus might be not only how to recreate the magic but also get more headroom no?


10-26-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 244
Post ID: 26937
Reply to: 26936
The Good

Jarek, my experience affirms that many “listening rooms” are overdamped, and you can always put a rug or rugs on the wooden flooring where you want it/them. And I have been able to get good sound in weird rooms. Basically, regarding rooms, “too big” is a far bigger problem than “too small”. I do get the attraction of headphones, and the Stax, in particular, and I do understand “limited capacity” speakers, and that people have to be mindful of their living arrangements. What I don’t understand is that no one except Romy has mentioned (and bitched about) the (necessarily) limited acoustic power. What are you listening to?>>

>

Edgar, I will not be trying the Dunnoys, just, as a longtime devote’ of vintage drivers, trying to wrap my head around the phenomenon, to try to figure out if, and if so, how, anyone managed to get “serious” acoustic power for Big Music down to 50 Hz from a single, FR Tannoy Red. I do understand that the “passive” Scanspeak might lower the Tannoy’s Fs, but how does that basically parasitic load increase the acoustic power of the Tannoy? It literally makes no sense. And 90 dB peaks means 70 dB steady, if to have 20 dB headroom, right? I like all kinds of vintage drivers and speakers for this and that reasons; but, apart from a few of the old “Pro” systems, those old speakers were a ways from bringing across orchestral music, and less and less so, over time, for me. I had some success getting acceptable power from vintage drivers by using multi-driver “stacks” that limited the drivers to comfortable bandwidths (around 2 1/2 octaves...). Still, I was plagued with combing, lobing, and other “phase issues” that I was not willing to spend yet more time (and money…) figuring out.>>

>

>
>

> Best regards,>

> Paul S>

10-26-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 245
Post ID: 26938
Reply to: 26937
More answers and questions
@Edgar - No, I do not use reverb injections. What do you mean by "blending up and down"? What xovers do you use? I have the UK made ones as they worked best for me (the settings are described up in the thread).
@Paul - Not to praise my own arse, but top Staxes + top amp + top source is a trip to another dimension. I've spent about 10yrs polishing my Stax setup and with the right material it sends me on a long, deep trip. Well, as for the limited power, I did mention from the very beginning that big orchestras do not sound convincing in my Dannoy setup, missing the scale, the slam and the air. If this is the result of the limited power as the common sense suggests or sth in my setup (crappy pre) ot both, I'm yet to find out. I listen to a whole spectrum of classics, from medieval to contemporary, with a soft spot on baroque. My ears are about 2.4m from the Dannoys. And so far baroque consorts have been the most beautifully presented  by Dannoys. Also a small scale (about 5-6 instruments) contemporary that I listened FM broadcasted life from a venue I know well was very good (just that particular music not my cup).



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-26-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 26
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 246
Post ID: 26939
Reply to: 26938
Answers
@N-set I was replying to pauls comment about giving up on blending passive radiators and trying to say I was surprised how effortless the 8565 integrates upwards into the tannoy but integrating down into another channel there is no hope. I think the later part of that comment is universal to passive radiators however the former part may not be. Re crossovers i just use the generic old ones as is. seem fine enough. 
If you are confidant your tannoys are working OK then i boldly request please stop everything else you do in audio right now and organise yourself reverb injection. the extra pressure from the reverb channels adds non directional bass energy to your room and the decay of that energy is adjustable with the settings on the reverb unit. I cannot overstate the difference it makes. it will be the cheapest and best upgrade in audio you ever made. I think it works particularly well with Dunnoy given the short comings. If you use big speakers for the reverb injection they can load the room with a lot of pressure. stick to only 2 rear channels of course. If you do, you will not have any integration woes only joys. If you have complaints about your room they will disappear for you. I know this is all very bold declaration but from one dunnoy user to another, do your self the favour. particularly for your funny shaped room. 
10-27-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 247
Post ID: 26940
Reply to: 26939
Ehh....
 Edgar= wrote:
but integrating down into another channel there is no hope.
Good, so much appreciate you to saying it as I kind of feel like I'm a freaking loser there's this configuration quite defeated me. my self-esteem is saved and my ego is erected again. With all seriousness it is indeed very challenging and I hope somebody, or perhaps me will be able to crack it in the future.
 Edgar= wrote:
i boldly request please stop everything else you do in audio right now and organise yourself reverb injection.
This is absolutely ridiculing statement, clearly indigotic point of view but I fully support it. I wish the reverb injection would be more popular in very much high end audio and in my view it gives more listening benefits then to update you speakers or amplifiers to something that cost 100 time mores then what you have.
 Edgar= wrote:
If you are confidant your tannoys are working OK then i boldly request please stop everything else
Here I very much disagree. Tannoys in Dannoy configuration driven by VFET is incredibly interesting configuration but it is not a complete configuration, at least if you're not listening in exceptionally small listening room. each single Hertz that tannoy going down it picks up some compression and it became unpleasant. I am not trying to pontificate from a position of high wisdom as I did not resolve this puzzle but the Dannoy + VFET is for me, for the time being, is dead end solution. I also highly recommend try VFET with Dannoy. I did not have a lot of amplification but after I assemble my Dannoy I was trying to drive it with my Milquades amplifier, and it was very bad. Are personally feel they to drive Dannoy with a low power amplifier with high output impedance is very dangerous as at the bottom Dannoy represents is very complex load which make most of the low power amplifiers to clip and while they doing it they create very nasty high frequency distortions which can even damage twitters. I tried that, and I was trying by-amping but Milquades delivered very bad results in term of dynamics, base quality and certain sense of rhythm which was completely killed.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 248
Post ID: 26941
Reply to: 26939
Blending passive with passive?
Forgive my complete ignorance in the speaker design, but if Edgar is right and the passive radiator has to be the last one, why not adding a sub with a passive? A sub with the same 8565 as a passive?

I hear you re the injection, but building that pre is a matter of a personal honor now - I've collected the parts long ago and feel bad for not doing anything. BTW, would you share the details of your reverb scheme? Which configuration, processor, speakers, amp etc?



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-27-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 26
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 249
Post ID: 26942
Reply to: 26940
It is complex
Yes a few ridiculous requests and statements there indeed. Full ridiculousness intended.
I know Dunnoy needs a lot of power and low impedance amp. My aims are not the same as yours here as I'm not concerned to have a SS amp. I am concerned with having things be generally smaller though. I will organise to listen to a VFET so I have a reference for it. 
Regarding integrating bass, the problem I think is how rapidly the active radiator decouples from the passive one below the passive radiators Fs. Being such a sharp lower knee makes it hard. 
If you were to high pass successfully I guess it would need to be 3rd or 4th order right below the system Fs. The free air Fs of the 8565 is 20hz but obviously higher in a small box. There is more to it however.  I think the challenge with high passing is sure, now there is no program material going to the speaker below Fs, but the passive radiator still has it phase shift. And probably worse now because the active radiator is not playing lower, it is not countering the phase shift. Maybe a solution might be driving the passive radiator lowpassed but out of phase, to help flatten that lower knee. What I mean is say 100w low impedance amp with 20hz-40hz, 4th order lowpass filter driving the passive radiator (which yes is technically now no longer passive) out of phase. Might be interesting to try. Might be able to flatten that knee completly out having no phase shift of the passive radiator at all. That would then improve things impedance wise for the Tannoy and amp combo as well. 


@N-set, Yeah my thinking is if you are going to add more channels then have them coupled to the passive driver. either their own passive radiator or share the one with the tannoy. If it is a sub scenario then probably its own passive radiator would be better as a guess.
My comments re injection are just my comments, of course you will do what is right for you. 

10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 250
Post ID: 26943
Reply to: 26942
LF cont'ed
Looks like the phase response is quite complicated, with two phase flips between the knee and the Fs notch, but the PR phase eventually comes back to be in phase below the Fs:
"I am sure we have all heard that a passive radiator is like a vented speaker. This is true in the region of the box tuning frequency. The passive radiator acts like a mass hanging on the spring and can be used to tune the box compliance to the desired resonance frequency in much the same way as a port does.In both cases, port or passive radiator, the resonance creates a very high internal pressure in the box at this frequency. This pressure, if there were zero losses, would force cone travel to come to zero at this frequency as all output would come from the port or passive radiator at this frequency. However, there are some losses, so in reality we end up with a notch in the woofer's response at the tuned frequency (Fb) and most of the output does still come from the port / PR.Now, as we move below Fb the passive radiator begins to act very differently than a port. Here's why - You still have that image of a weight hanging a spring? Well, a passive radiator is a much more complex mechanical system than a simple port. It has its own moving suspension and it has its own resonance frequency ( which we will call Fsp). So in your image of the weight hanging from the spring, you need to attach another spring to the weight and add an additional weight hanging on it. So, now you have a weight on a spring hanging from a weight on a spring. Got that, right? In a vented system the port output and the cone output are in phase with each at the tuning frequency. Below that both are rolling off at 12 dB/oct. But, the port is moving out of phase with the cone as the frequency decreases. This is what causes vented systems to roll-off at 24 dB/oct. The same thing occurs with a passive radiator until we reach the frequency of Fsp. At this point (Fsp) the passive radiator output is out of phase with the output of the woofer cone and a notch in the summed response occurs. At this point the PR's phase "wraps" or flips, and below Fsp the PR's phase moves back in phase with the cone. This means that at very low frequencies the summed response, unlike the vented system, rolls-off at only 12 dB/oct, just like a sealed system. In fact, it is a sealed system below Fsp. This means we have the added benefit of the box no longer unloading at low frequencies like a vented box does. Excursions of the woofer cone are much better controlled at very low frequencies. With the Passive Radiator, you get the benefit of a vented box at the tuning frequency and the benefit of a sealed box at lower frequencies. You may have never heard this before, which is what makes this a smarter place to hang out."
https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/909/ported-vs-passive-radiator-designs-thoughts

I understand this violent phase change happening in a short freq interval is one suspect why "glueing" bass/reinforcement channels is so problematic and they sound disconnected?

Ed, would love to learn the details of your reverb application. It is in my plans (after sorting the electronics and a basic room treatment).


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 251
Post ID: 26944
Reply to: 26942
Be careful with passive radiators
The passive radiator is simply put a closed box Helmholtz resonator with low "q". What does that mean? It means that the passive radiator only resonates at its tuned frequency and its multiples - regardless of the frequency radiated by the driven woofer. 

Let us say that the passive is tuned to 30 Hz. Our recording of Also Sprach Zarathustra starts with a pipe organ low C. This is 32 Hz. The Tannoy driver moves at 32 Hz, the passive radiator can only move at its tuned frequency - 30 Hz. As it adds additional pressure, we believe that it is a "louder" 32 Hz. If we measure the actual frequencies, we find 32(Tannoy)/30(PR) and the sum (30+32) 62 and difference (30-32) 2 Hz coming out of the speaker. The actual amount of additional pressure depends on the Q of the resonance.

The reason that we believe differently is because most frequency response sweeps are made with the assumption that the pressure picked up by the microphone correlates to the given input frequency. It does not. Measure and weep.
I noticed this effect when tuning a piano once. A detuned string still got my tuning fork to resonate.


https://www.hunecke.de/en/knowledge/absorbers/helmholtz-resonators.html





Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 252
Post ID: 26945
Reply to: 26944
The Plain Truth, per Pythagoras
Thanks for the explication, Robin. This is exactly what I encounted when I messed with passive radiators, many years ago, and it is exactly why I abandoned them fairly quickly, after "making sure" I could not make problems "go away" by "adjusting  Fs" by fiddling with dope and goop on the cones, etc., ad nauseum. And, as long as we're on the subject, there are similar/related issues with most/all "multi-driver" speakers. Basically, what "manufacturers" show in the way of RTA charts are "averaged"/"smoothed" results. Sure, we only care about what we hear; but, in the end, the sum-and-difference effects are just that, and the passive radiator has to get its energy from the active driver. In cases where the active driver is "challenged" to begin with, a passive radiator might make it "sound better", but its effects will not be simply additive, nor are they likely to be anything we could call linear, without calculus.


Paul S



10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 253
Post ID: 26946
Reply to: 26944
More on PR
Thank you Rowuk for the explanations.

 rowuk wrote:
The Tannoy driver moves at 32 Hz, the passive radiator can only move at its tuned frequency - 30 Hz.

I understand what you are trying to say, but the Fs resonance has it's width. Not sure how representative the plot from here is (scroll down pls):
https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/909/ported-vs-passive-radiator-designs-thoughts
but it shows a pretty wide PR resonance.

In any case, as far as I understand the rapid phase variation by a total of 360deg  makes any matches with additional channels a huge challenge. Adding a PR sub like I fantasized above seems to have a limited value due to the persistent notch (and the phase rotation) at the PR Fs. SS Fs is already low around 20+Hz, finding a PR that would go significantly lower is a no-go, unless mass loading the cone. OTOH, accepting the 20+Hz notch as the lowest freq, which is IMHO already a v good result for such a compact design, opens a way of  using a sub with the same ScanSpeak PR, say 2 parallel SS + 1 SS PR, as a reinforcement channel. It will have the +/- the same notch but will add output before it. Or am I talking bs?



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 254
Post ID: 26947
Reply to: 26946
Xmax and BL?
I understand someone got good sounding results from  - apparently -  using a certain passive radiator to effectively lower the Fs of a 10" Tannoy Red. Can it be that the Tannoy has a long enough throw that is still damped in line with the rest of it's output? If so, why does it's acceptable output drop with frequency? Can it be that the Scanspeaks will share that quality if their Fs is lowered the same way? I've done a lot of screwing around with lowering Fs, raising mms, and effing with surrounds and spyders, and those cures introduced their own problems for me. Of course, the only way you'll know for sure is to build it and give it a try. And then tell us what happens.

Best regards,
Paul S
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 255
Post ID: 26948
Reply to: 26947
Not sure
Paul, I'm only learning here but if I understand correctly, a passive Scanspeak will not effectively lower the Fs of the active Scanspeak/s, as the notch is at the Fs of the passive radiator, irrespective of what the active radiator/s is/are.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 256
Post ID: 26949
Reply to: 26948
Action/Reaction
Yes, Jarek, I can see that, now that you mention it. Basically, then, it appears it would just eat low end, based on Q vs. other active speaker perameters. So, what would be the "theoretical benefit" of the added passive radiator be in the case you describe, particularly considering the idea of "tying in" below the Tannoy Red? Or are you willing to settle for just "more" down to 50 Hz, hoping that the active Scanspeak with (hopefully?) the weird bottom will blend with and augment the Dannoy's weird bottom? Romy has repeated many times that passing the Red higher (to gain acoustic power) ruined the magic as much as (or even more than) overdriving it. Feels like my childish struggle to create a 5 color map.

Paul S
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 257
Post ID: 26950
Reply to: 26949
The 2nd option
Paul, the 2nd option - "more" down to Fs =20+Hz (not 50Hz as you state) with the hope of the weird bottoms blending and augmenting (= more headroom down to Fs). But this is just me thinking loud.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 258
Post ID: 26951
Reply to: 26950
Angels on Pinheads
Jarek, how many 10" Scanspeaks do you think it would take to get way down in your room? And remember that, according to Romy, the "best sounding" Dannoy, the heart of this speaker system, still only plays up to 90 db peaks (70 dB continuous with serious music), so it seems like there's no good reason the subs should have to play louder. Don't know if listening right up on these speakers would help, but I have had most of my speakers set up this way at one point or another, over the years. With this sort of set-up, visitors were surprised that they were not blasted out of their seats by some of my bigger speakers.

Paul S
10-29-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 259
Post ID: 26952
Reply to: 26946
Passive Radiator Part2
The Fs resonance does have its width BUT that means that the 30 Hz PR resonance out of my example is excited when the driver is not exactly at 30 Hz (not that a 30Hz PR can resonate at 32 0r 28Hz!). By definition a Helmholtz Resonator has one frequency based on mass and the air spring. If we want multiple frequencies, we need multiple PRs that each have their own frequencies (and due to "Q" their own trash when other frequencies are needed). In addition, the PR needs several cycles to "get up to speed". It is ALWAYS way behind the active driver.
The problem here is the single PR RESONANT FREQUENCY that will modulate everything else.
All of this technical stuff does not necessarily correlate to good or bad sound. Plenty of audiophiles are very tolerant of things that their friends have not yet criticized...


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-29-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 260
Post ID: 26953
Reply to: 26952
Cartridges and speakers
 rowuk wrote:
The Fs resonance does have its width BUT that means that the 30 Hz PR resonance out of my example is excited when the driver is not exactly at 30 Hz (not that a 30Hz PR can resonate at 32 0r 28Hz!). By definition a Helmholtz Resonator has one frequency based on mass and the air spring. If we want multiple frequencies, we need multiple PRs that each have their own frequencies (and due to "Q" their own trash when other frequencies are needed). In addition, the PR needs several cycles to "get up to speed". It is ALWAYS way behind the active driver.
The problem here is the single PR RESONANT FREQUENCY that will modulate everything else.

Basically all important resonating structures in audio look like hell from both frequency and time domain perspectives.

 rowuk wrote:
All of this technical stuff does not necessarily correlate to good or bad sound. Plenty of audiophiles are very tolerant of things that their friends have not yet criticized...

I have 2-3 audio friends and never listen withe them if that matters.

@Paul - I got what your are saying about the 90/70dB setting. I do miss however some headroom for big orchestras as I have mentioned.  I'd love to know how many active SS would be enough. My space is a strange shape (living room semi separated from a kitchen and connected to a small entrance space). I do not have much space for the subs, would be great if by some luck 1Active+1Passive per channel would do (I listen close distance at 2.4m)



Cheers,
Jarek
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