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08-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 1
Post ID: 8048
Reply to: 8048
... again on GOTO Unit drivers...
Hi Romy and thanks a lot for the always interesting topics and discussions going on...

I'm quite new to DPoLS and consider the approach of "obtaining sound in a room" more than "speakers positioning" - too often to WAF fullfillment and aesthetics, than soundwise - as a major achievement in audio at home.

I've been involved in the last few years in round Tractrix horns using, with several drivers: Altec 806, 288, JBL 2420, Coral 1",  EV T350, Westrex 2080, RCA MI-9448 and several woofers by Altec 803, 416A and Westrex 2090, plus some Siemens (KL-405 and KL-306).

Pls forgive me for the following tale - will try to make it the shortest: quite recently, after purchasing during a quite long time-hiatus (almost a couple years), I finished owning (and using) three second-hand/pre-owned drivers pairs of Goto Unit drivers and horns, paying, IMO, a correct price-tag, BUT sure spending some energy, indeed.

The reason I'm writing? Not to say I consider myself as "arrived" to the peak, because I got Goto... no, definitely they're hyped piece of gears... the metal-finish on screw-in horn joint is awful, peeling off like the cheapest of cheap... industrially a below par workmanship, I'd say. If compared to MI-9448, they're ridiculously loosing on many parameters...

I got SG-17SA highs, SG-37FRP with S-400 horn mid-high and SG-555PS with S-150 (long, old style) horn mid-low... not the top of line they made years ago, but honest, old manufactured drivers bearing a quite "hated" name... and I entered in the blackest, deepest audio crisis ever... they sounded - compared to all the above mentioned drivers - a-musical, lean, unnatural...

DPoLS saved me... an idea, a concept gave to me strenght enough to "think", instead "re-selling" the difficult, unfriendly gears - and hinted me again toward humble experimenting... I had some carton jigs and cheap wooden stands made and... I began from where I was... classic quasi-horn 416A bass with horns on top, like 98 percent do... after, many, many attempts finished with a 3 upper ways wooden mounted array, 110° angled in front of, me, the listener and a cm 280 x 130 plus 100 x 130 "tuning-wings" baffle with Westrex 2090 woofers at center-stage.
This on the 5,30m "longest" wall... the wrong one;-)...

I'm still fiddling, and will have to for some times more, but it seems I found - at least - the position which give to me more music than I ever experienced in my room. Now, fine-tuning expects me.

I'm still moving mid-high and high as you did in yr. Macondo's... bacause I never seriously bothered with phase, I'm trying to learn using my ears and musical tastes... as travelling is not the place to reach, but the travel itself - I'm having pretty good time, in a sort of solitary conversation, ralationship with my room and gears, where a cartridge or a cable is as important as 1 inch movement or less... it's never too late.

... so, what about Goto? With their nasty snobbishness and elusiveness, they sure have the merit they allowed me, someway hinted and gave to me the ticket to a different, more mature?, deepest appreciation of music at home... which is not that bad. The second-hand lowered price-tages helped, too.

Would have obtained this promising results with what I already owned? Better for me, I'd say now... most important it's not considering the improving at an end, only "'cause I got Goto";-)))

... in fact, I'm also thinking to give a try to RCA's mid-low in S-150 60 inches long mid-low horns... their bakelite-cloth diaphragm is very, very musical and... well: let me play with my toys: it's my own adeventure! Is it or not (audio) a solitary affaire?!?! ;-)

Thanks again, Romy.

Stefano


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,366
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 8051
Reply to: 8048
About sincerity and the Tailored Audio™

Stefano, welcome to the club, not the GoodSoundClub but the club of understanding of what is going on.

The subject of drivers in Tailored Audio™ is complicated and one of the biggest problems in this complicity is to defeat the attitude of judgment enslaving. The drivers do whatever they do but the really good results come from Working with drivers. Unfortunately most of the people in audio instead of working with driver and navigating the sound of the drivers in the direction they envision do opposite: they based upon the results from the various drivers redefine the definition of reproduction expectations and consequentially they invent different “myths of addiction”. All of it from my view disqualifies most of the people who deal with different drivers to judge drivers more or less objectively. You will see in audio many different groups who swear by one or another driver and feel that their selection of drivers assures some kind of “quietly”. My dealing with many and many of those people testifies that NONE of them have archive interning objectionable sound but rather then all got a random sound  plus a fat layer of self-propaganda preventing them to look critical at own results.

The GOTO ideology I feel is very much in the same wagon. I do not know how good or bad GOTO driver are – I never had them in my own possession. However, if to presume that I know something about sound of horn inhalations then I am very confident that all of the GOTO systems out there (among what I have seen in picture) do not do well sonically. A driver is like a car’s transmission it might be good but in order to demonstrate own advantages the transmission must be imbedded into a car – a mechanism with another zillion engineering decisions. GOTO does not do it. This hors are crap and their ideas of system design are mostly foolish. All of it does not serve the good the GOTO drivers to demonstrate anything good, even if they have something good in them.

This satiation is very much spared among the addictee to any type of drivers: JBL, YL, Altec, Klangfilm, Western Electric, AL, Electro-Voice, GOTO, RCA and many others. So, when those people talk about “sound” from their drivers what that come from them is juts testimonies of loyalties to own clan – very stupid and contra-productive. Try to show up at Altec for instance forum and juts to imply about the specific sonic deficiency of the driver or the driver application that you are intimately are familiar. You will be instantly attacked by an army of angry cronies who feet that you call their child as an ugly child. As many times I ask those people why they behave like idiot not one was able to explain it to me. As many times I have visited those people’s listening rooms and familiarized myself with the actual sonic results they accomplished as many time I have witnessed a huge misbalance between the loudness of loyal screaming and the worth of the actual demonstrable Sound. You might read the following threads where  I was trying to talk about it:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4611

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2546

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2694

About the DPoLS. The DPoLS is a very far-advanced subject and it clowns the “creme de la crème” of high-end reproduction. Unfortunately very very very very very few systems approach DPoLS (Macondo for instance do not do DPoLS). However, the familiarly of a system designer with DPoLS make a person to think and to practice the things differently. Only this is already a huge benefit, particularly in GOTO case when people do not believe in anything else besides the making of allegedly good drivers.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,366
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 8052
Reply to: 8051
One more thing. This is how I see the things out there…
I would like to add to my previous posts that the situation I described above made virtually imposable to correlate experiences of different people have with different drivers. If you for instance use your JBL driver and I use my TOA driver for the same type of channel then we practically have no way to exchange experiences about the drivers performances unless we are free from brands idolizing and arousing own egos by worshiping own results. I certainly do not talk about you but rather I’m bitching about the situation generally. For example I do horns for number of year and have some experience on the subject but I still do not know how the YL, GOTO, Isophon, ALE, WE, Klangfilm, RCA, Kinap and a few others drivers sound. Well, I kind of know – I heard them in one or another setting but I did not deal with them myself as deep as I dealt with some other drivers, as well I have no ways to learn about those drivers from the experiences of other. I hate to sound as CNN’s Lou Dobb but the experiences isolations of the people who do horns do piss me off. Unfortunately among those who do expose their experiences with different drivers publicly I see mostly idiots who have no idea what they are trying to accomplish or just the mercantilism-driven whores.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 4
Post ID: 8054
Reply to: 8052
Audio lobbism or the Audio Churches
Hi Romy and thanks for your threads...

Since I joined, as a reader first, your Forum... well, I had plenty of good time reading your posts.

Your witty approach is really what we all needs in this Flat Earth... the problem in audio and music is that people in 95 percent of other Web forums do not use their own ears, wait for people hints on music to buy, concerts to go, gears to purchase... people do not want to get wrong, I'd say...

For me, trial and error, being wrong is part of a personal process which always bring to a "better", whatever it is... I bought several "wrong" discs, gears, bikes... as I had "wrong" women...

Reading a book about personal enhancement . the several  happiness manuals you find on bookshops shelves - instead of, simply and naturally, "living" it's not definitely, my cup of tea!

Your talking about the "kinds of audiophiles character" is absolutely applicable to ANY life fact... simply leave "......." (blank) on - i.e. politics, audio, health, food, travelling, bikes, cars, kids education, sex, etc.

Experiences make people richer... second hand experiences make people more and more lazy and fearsome and poorer.

Let's have no fears, pals... few days ago a friend (and fellow audio and music lover) who was looking at my work in progress, asked "Where do you read about this? Are you sure what're you doing?", while another friend, months ago told me: "The system is wonderfully sounding: I'd not touch nothing more, ever!"

In both cases, I replied sincerely, without any filter - i.e. of course I did my homeworks, re. informing myself on web and inspiring at several places, but  - mostly - I TOO MY TIME TO MOVE AND FIDDLE, AND FINELY TUNE AND LISTENE TO, AND MOVE AGAIN, without feeling unconfortable of "loosing the magic"... when something is working nicely, NOW that's the time to fiddle again, to go further this "NICE"...

I don't feel be braveheart... simply honest with myself: I'm my best friend!

Cheers,

Stefano


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,366
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 8056
Reply to: 8054
So, what is about the SOUND of the GOTO drivers?

Yep, Stefano, it looks like we do have similar views about the subjects we touched. Let go back to exploring one of the terra incognito of compression driver – the sound of Goto.

I would insist is that to judge sound of Goto driver from the installations that I have see is worthless thing to do -all Goto installation that I have seen are time-missaligned. To listen a time-misaligned horn installation is like stepping in dog poop while you walk to a job interview or to a first date. So, I would discard my own or some people that I know who use Goto judgmental experience with their drivers. What I would be more interesting is just your subjective feedback about a sound of a single Goto MF drive in regards to a default compression driver. It is how I usually approach compression drivers…. As the “default compression driver”, as I many time said before, I usually place JBL 2440/375 driver. It is all together very popular and very common, well-balanced driver with good characteristics and good sound and I feel it is very convenient to treat the 2440 as common denominator of compression drivers capacity. I usually judge the naked drivers seeing their sweep on axis in 250Hz-330Hz round Tratrix and ~500Hz high-pass filter and just listening the sound of the row driver. If to know what to listen and to know what one would like to hear then in this very simple setting many drivers do show themselves discriminatively…

The reason I ask is because no one talk about the SOUND of Goto drivers, nether the driver owners nor the driver’s salers.   I still hope to hear from someone who has a direct experience with Gotos about the sound of those drivers…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 6
Post ID: 8059
Reply to: 8056
Audio or porn?
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Yep, Stefano, it looks like we do have similar views about the subjects we touched. Let go back to exploring one of the terra incognito of compression driver – the sound of Goto.

The reason I ask is because no one talk about the SOUND of Goto drivers, nether the driver owners nor the driver’s salers.   I still hope to hear from someone who has a direct experience with Gotos about the sound of those drivers…



Romy:

it's not a matter of complimenting each other BUT of sincerity and honesty... so: yes, you possibly scrapped the Mistery!

I saw people at Audio Fair in Milan trying to pick up a single bottom-line ALE driver, on static display on a shelf and being impressed by weight, cost and by the pictures framed at the walls... is this audio?

I would understand looking at a parked Lamborghini's Gallardo... but to a driver?!?!

It's porn, not audio - music-sake!!!

... same on Goto: people I know, mostly in Europe, simply state "They own Goto"... which always give mixed reactions, among fellows: WOW, you're rich or crazy, or both;-) - I have a Linn and Rogers (with superiority)... no one is saying: I'm enjoing my system, which is using some artisanal "speakers" handmade in Japan. Lotta details... I enjoy my discs a lot.

... and nobody talks about music, involvements, and the like... like at a flawed, biased Audio Fair, people enjoy... their ego, the (inducted) luxury sensation, the status symbol... they only listen to their selfishness.

Beside I'm not a Goto eGotist and I own about 7-10 years old drivers, for what I'm concerned their sound is correct, quite lean if compared to 2440 and 2420, thicker sounding -  but very, VERY detailed, quick and musical.

They're quite difficult - almost impossible - to blend with other brands, better, to different designs and they sound special -  to my ears - with SET and passive crossovers.

People in Italy is using them with... T-amps!!!... because importer told them to do so - again no humbly-spent time listening to alternatives... which, IMO, is like driving a 200 hp motorbike with shorts and sandals because you saw a (female) model dressed this way advertising that bike on a magazine;-)))

Again... a friend of mine owns a Martin D-45 nice acoustic guitars, BUT he always "protect" it, always keep it stored and play a cheap Yamaha acoustic... BUT he says he "has" a Martin's.

So what? Gears (and instruments) are tools to a given function... giving names and transforming raw materials into goods are basic human facts, and to certain degree of simplification, "everything" is like a fridge... a Man artifact to serve him. So, stop the hypes: let's choose and purchase our very own best using our own tastes and straightforwardness and, definitely... let's not trust magazines, BUT only to our first-hand experiences.

That's it...


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 7
Post ID: 8060
Reply to: 8056
Pixes
 Romy the Cat wrote:

I would insist is that to judge sound of Goto driver from the installations that I have see is worthless thing to do -all Goto installation that I have seen are time-missaligned. To listen a time-misaligned horn installation is like stepping in dog poop while you walk to a job interview or to a first date.

... as "we" know what you're talking about, here are some pixes which tell more than thousands words:

 http://www18.ocn.ne.jp/~tnk/page009.html

Have a look...


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 8
Post ID: 8063
Reply to: 8056
SOUND of time aligned GOTO
I have only heard GOTO drivers one time, and in that system they were time-aligned:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=7467#7467
 

The closest I could come to describing the SOUND, when the source was right; (Charles King's Stellavox) & good electricity (JJ filter) was "natural" --very detailed while still being exceptionally smooth.  
I also noted a coherence, that all the drivers and horns worked well throughout their range, that you didn't HEAR crossover, or different ranges "sticking out" because somethng was being "forced" out of it's range. 
This is not my system, I do not own GOTO. 

I am quite familiar with JBL, and agree they are a good "reference." 
I would consider them "rougher" and "less refined, less detailed, and somewhat harsher." 
Robert
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,366
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 8064
Reply to: 8059
You are preaching to the chorus.

 twogoodears wrote:

Beside I'm not a Goto eGotist and I own about 7-10 years old drivers, for what I'm concerned their sound is correct, quite lean if compared to 2440 and 2420, thicker sounding -  but very, VERY detailed, quick and musical.
Surely to a very converted person. Mocking the Moronity of audio public is something that filed a large portion on my site. So…

Anyhow, returning back to the subject of the thread - I was asking because I do have an interest to learn how Goto drivers sound. You should not be the Goto-evangelist – in fact all of them are Morons. All that I was asking is to pass your observation about the drivers. It is not a big deal that your use 7-10 years old drivers. I use 60 years old drivers- so what? There was a major advancement in sound reproduction filed during the last 2-3 years, wasn’t it?

Anyhow, Stefano, among what you said there was something interesting. You said that from your point of view GOTO are” quite lean if compared to 2440 and 2420, thicker sounding -  but very, VERY detailed, quick” May I ask you: did you try to rectify this leanness by loading the plated of your SETs harder: for instance if you use 10:1 with 2440 then to use 6:1 with GOTO? I always suspected and expected that GOTO must be “lean”. This feeling I dot from a few years back what I was playing with filed-coils and discovered that pursuing for high flux rate did killed the harmonics at the bottom of the driver (well documented at my site). Goto goes for very powerful magnets with a lot of flux – it might not be necessarily a good thing (it might be as well if some other thing is made rationally).  Anyhow, I feel that loading harder the amp might be an interesting direction to go. It would give you more harmonics with GOTO and it would be very interesting the rate with which Goto gain body of sound and loose the “quickness”. The only thing that I ma afraid that it might give the effect of a correcting low mass of MC cartridges with too shallow VTA, if you know what I mean…

Nevertheless, I think the dynamic with which GOTO would react to SET loading (if you know you SET well) will be a good indication of what doing on.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,366
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 8065
Reply to: 8063
GOTO, electricity and me being 'insulted'.

 serenechaos wrote:
The closest I could come to describing the SOUND, when the source was right; (Charles King's Stellavox) & good electricity (JJ filter) was …. being exceptionally smooth

Yep, the strange smoothnes was something that I heard in 2 GOTO installations that I experienced. Serenechaos, it is interesting that you mention GOTO in context to electricity.  I think GOT) shell be super sensitive to any electrical problems. They have a lot of flux and they might have very light cones – those things die first with bad electricity. BTW, what are the JJ filters? A power devise that did not blow yet in my listening room? I feel insulted!!!

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 11
Post ID: 8066
Reply to: 8065
Electric GOTOs
Yes, I feel it necessecary to include context of electricity, source, amp, and driver loading, when discussing driver sound even if (as in this case) I have to say I don't really know all the details of what they are--the details still matter. 
The "JJ filter" was a power filter Jeffery Jackson built, that everything plugged into. 
Not real sophisticated, but sturdy, and I think an important piece of the puzzle. 
The amp was a SET, the one in the large thing in the middle my wife kept calling a "pie safe," it uses 75TLs for output tubes I don't know many details, but Jeffery said it took quite a bit of work to get the right loading and output transformers to get everything to work right.  
AND, that dedicated SETs, built for each channel do work better, but tend to scare customers off; they seem to think it's a scam (more amps; builder's just trying to get more money).  
I don't understand why people don't see that building amps/drivers/horns to work in the proper range, with the proper loading isn't a scam, it's just the right way of doing thngs... 
Robert 
08-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,366
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 8067
Reply to: 8066
The methodologically reasonable driver’s assessment

 serenechaos wrote:
Yes, I feel it necessecary to include context of electricity, source, amp, and driver loading, when discussing driver sound even if (as in this case) I have to say I don't really know all the details of what they are--the details still matter

I don't understand why people don't see that building amps/drivers/horns to work in the proper range, with the proper loading isn't a scam, it's just the right way of doing thngs... 

Robert,

Surly the amps, horns and many other aspects as not scam and not the shake oil and the people with senses between ears do understand it. Still, I do not feel that amplification and architectural decisions shell be implied in drivers evaluations, at least during the initial introduction. Of course the driver shell be powered with a proper amp for a given topology, the driver shell be properly loaded, the amps shell be properly loaded. It is no controversy what proper is loading. The contesting drivers shell be identically properly employed. Whatever the drivers demonstrate in respectfully proper operation - is their sound. Then there is the most interesting – how each diver reacts to different external conditions. You see this is the key in my view - the reaction of a driver to own sound under the same different condition but in different operation mode. This  cancels out (well I would say minimizes) all discrepancies with electricity, sources, references, amps, loadings, horning etc etc etc…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-18-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 13
Post ID: 8070
Reply to: 8066
Audio always as a combo, never a list of components
Hi all... yes, a clean power is paramount for a clean sound... I run my turntable and pre-amp on batteries and the difference in sound is amazing, while I never used outboard filtering on amps, BUT I have a public mains transformer at 10 meters from my flat... my 220V nominal are 230V 24/24-7/7-365/365, no spikes.

Returning to Goto: when I quoted the between 7 and 10 years age of my second-hand drivers, I meant to point out they're not the huge, super-expensive, tycoon-type drivers someone own, BUT, nonetheless, were still manufactured in small batches when Seja Goto himself was still in the workshop.

Me too I own Westrex' and RCA's drivers and speakers which are 50 or 60 years old, and didn't suffered any flux loss...

JBL or Altec or...: Romy - an example I wish to tell you is that when I did some testing and listening, what I remember clearly was the hiss coming from high and mid-high drivers... to my surprise, while the hiss from, say, a JBL 2420 with barrier/sliced short horn and lens was like "fffffffffssffffff", quite grainy -  the very same hiss, say from interstation FM or tape or phono without disc playing was a feeble, clear "sssssssssssssss" on high and "ssshhhhhhhhhh" on mid-high, quite different from the thicker, less mellow JBL's.

Whatever this means, what I like, now, after months spent on taming, blending voices and listening to my speakers combo is, as Robert already pointed out, they seem to operate in a very specialized narrow bandwidth... a friend which tried my mid-high as a mid obtained a flawed sound, but the very same driver and horn (SG-37FRP and S-400 aluminium horn) used between 3500 and 8000 hz is special, musical, detailed and relaxed... 

So, my (humble) advice - based on my direct experience - would be: if the case, try to use Goto as 4 ways, not the more common 3 ways... also if Tanaka-san is, for commercial reason I suspect, also advising and "blessing" for 2 and 3 ways systems... they simply doesn't work this way.

I'd like Jeffrey Jackson would have the time to post his thoughts on his S-150/505 combo and a short description of strength and weakness of his horn system... with some words on sound sure he's more knowledgeable than myself about Romy's question about plate/ratio etc.

Thanks.    



"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-18-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 14
Post ID: 8071
Reply to: 8064
Always valid...
"The only thing that I ma afraid that it might give the effect of a correcting low mass of MC cartridges with too shallow VTA, if you know what I mean…"

Romy: I passed over this important sentence... yes, "forcing" something is someway "faking" (an euphemism for "fu**ing";-)) results, and you're always loosing something, BUT I'm too ignorant on electronics to go deeper... pretty sure on exaggerating VTA to augment bass, but I stop here... no, something more: I also blame the practice to "try to fix" impedance and sensitivity in MC SUTs with resistors... better on paper, BUT worst to the ears.. always my opinion, folks...


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-18-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 15
Post ID: 8072
Reply to: 8067
Methodologically reasonable driver's assessment continued
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 Still, I do not feel that amplification and architectural decisions shell be implied in drivers evaluations, at least during the initial introduction. Of course the driver shell be powered with a proper amp for a given topology, the driver shell be properly loaded, the amps shell be properly loaded. It is no controversy what proper is loading. The contesting drivers shell be identically properly employed. Whatever the drivers demonstrate in respectfully proper operation - is their sound. Then there is the most interesting – how each diver reacts to different external conditions. You see this is the key in my view - the reaction of a driver to own sound under the same different condition but in different operation mode. This  cancels out (well I would say minimizes) all discrepancies with electricity, sources, references, amps, loadings, horning etc etc etc…
The Cat

Yes, Yes, that is what I'm trying to say. 
"The contesting drivers shall be identically properly employed." 

That all drivers are on "level playing field" not handicaped by loading, etc. 
Then one can hear the SOUND of the DRIVER. 

Then hear "reaction of a driver" under "same different condition but in different operation mode."
Yes!
Robert
08-18-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,366
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 8073
Reply to: 8070
Now we are hitting the keys!

 twogoodears wrote:
…. they seem to operate in a very specialized narrow bandwidth... So, my (humble) advice - based on my direct experience - would be: if the case, try to use Goto as 4 ways, not the more common 3 ways... also if Tanaka-san is, for commercial reason I suspect, also advising and "blessing" for 2 and 3 ways systems... they simply doesn't work this way.
OK, this is already something that touches the base of one of my fundamental (theoretical) disagreements with GOTO. GOTO slices the range to their narrow bandwidth drivers. It looks like it shell appeal to people like me – those who use multi-channel horn installations with DSETs, however I do not like the reasoning why GOTO goes narrow bandwidth.

The clarification and revelation to the subject came to me a couple years back when I was experimenting with driving my S2 from electromagnet:

http://www.romythecat.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=1929

What I was able to witness is that increasing of flux density leaded to unavoidable shrinking (toward to HF) the optimum operational bandwidth of driver.  As I undusted GOTO uses very high flux (2.4T if I am not mistaken). That does a good advertising for the people who have no idea what the words means but I do not think it is “good for Sound”. GOTO, while they are doing for high flux end up with super stiff suspension. It is not bad itself but this stiffness is something that I call “nervous stiffness”, when the cone not hard suspended but rather arrested in space by magnetics paralyses. Sure you can’t not drive such a driver with a bandwidth that is outside of the “magnetics paralyses”, so here is where GOTO has a solution – they say: “use 4th order crossovers”. It goes along very well with GOTO disbelieve that “humans hear phases”… 50 years ago the deaf idiots who wrote books about loudspeakers and psychoacoustic use to state that humans hear no phases. Nowadays, no one make those statements anymore as they considered as scientific heresy identical to the comment that Earth is sitting atop of 4 elephants that stay on a shell of a giant turtle….

I have to admit that there are ways to deal with “nervous stiffness” of high flux divers but… there are no voices from GOTO about it, neither about the drivers design nor about drivers Sound. GOTO looks like comfortable with the situation that they sell 10 drivers per year to the Robb Report type of customers who get from it a questionable sound and there is not further attempt to advance the results. I do not think about it too hard as I do not use GOTO drivers but it does not prevent me from having a position on the subject.

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-18-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 17
Post ID: 8075
Reply to: 8073
Time
Romy:

let's do not name those "four letters horizontal, the first a "G"..." brand... specializing bandwidth, high flux, moronity in selling ethics, non-advertising/word of mouth hypes, creating a status-symbol... these and others are all sub-products of what we love... the most pleasant reproduction of music at home...  no one of medium I.Q. may love a driver... but we absolutely are able to love what a music system can do: getting near to composer, score, artists. 

Also the cheapest audio music system with some wisdom and a sage use of time may be brought to a nice reproduction and the above nearness... 

So is "time" a status-symbol? Yes, it is... the clock is saying it's a very elusive and a fixed value... any thowing it away and you can't find it anymore... so... do we, may we "hate" Time?

... the reply is not a surprise to anyone... no, of course: we need time!

Under this point of view Vitavox', Altec's, JBL's, Westrex', down, down to the cheapest third or more hand, pre-owned gears, if some time is lovingly spent, may sound special to the owner.

The gears are charged by attention, time, passion, love and whatever you want to fill... they become an emotional hard-disk for the mind.

This is mysterious... please believe me: I prefere listening to great music from a cheap table radio, than nasty music from a big bucks music system... don't you, Romy?

I'm simplifying, but... sincere. To loose those Goto's... but hand off from my music (discs, tapes, disks, instruments).

;-)  

     


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-18-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,366
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 8076
Reply to: 8075
Well, what are we taking about?
Stefano, I do not exactly follow what you tried to say but it is OK. We do need to understand that we do when we are talking about Goto or any other driver manufactures. It is absolutely not know what the hell sound comes in your drivers. I hardly belie that Sound is well controlled and perfectly predictable substance when we are talking about compression drivers and therefore talking about the driver we are trying to guess the patterns that give more or less predictable results. I reported my own observations and my thoughts about GOTO and some ideas that they most likely employ. It has nothing to do with music or listening via a cheap table radio. The subject of drivers design and evaluations (GOTO in the given case) is a completely self-contained subject. It is what I would like to stay with the scope of this thread. Be advised that we did not take bout more complex moments – tone, contacts and etc… All that I did was just reacted to your comment about the alleged lean Sound from GOTO and the fact that you found that the is 2440 thicker sounding driver.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-18-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 19
Post ID: 8078
Reply to: 8076
I understand...
... and, be sure, I completely agree... ONLY trying to "cut the air" and giving some understatement to a someway heavy matter - wishing to avoid any hype, which sometimes helps when reality can't be properly explained... the thread is interesting and intriguing, but the best I've been able to speculate is the quality of hiss when compared to 2420, 288 and 806 because I noticed it... of course, the sound is (was) quite different and when tuned as I learned to do, very smooth, airy, fast and detailed, never fatiguing... now!

... at first play, they appeared so different from other drivers I used and knew... absolutely NOT better. Lean and too lightly sounding for my tastes, I remember.

That's my best, Romy... that's why I asked for JJ's opinion and I appreciated Robert's...

My (sort of empty) "chatting" was due to my deficiency in spending more words on the VERY matter... My fault... I apologize.

Will read with interest more opinions, if any...  


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-29-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 115
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 20
Post ID: 8118
Reply to: 8078
Musicality and details: a quest for a friendly audio experience
Hi Romy:

as I don't consider the thread as emptied, yet, I'd wish to add some thoughts after more days of listening to my system.

I re-read an half-page chapter in French from Jean Hiraga's "Les Hautparleur" essay, concerning time-alignement and phase... in this quite misconsidered and often unconcerned parameter, I more and more carefully weighted Hiraga's words, where he says that in horns time-alignement you, I simplify to be better understood, you must go "fractal" - i.e. 1/2 inch plus a salt grain;-) because it's not simply a matter of phisically aligning the diaphragms of, say, tweeter, mid and woofer, but "finding" the "fractal" point where you hear the best, most natural sound in yr. VERY system.

I only recently began to move drivers and horns and, while only some weeks ago, I was positioning speakers/ways in an aesthetically/functional (due to weight and bulkiness) way - like 98 percent of people worldwide using these speakers, now I almost only use ears... now I feel as I did "before" like audio shops owners back in '70s when they applied their coolness with those silly "waves" on equalizers on the shelves to impress young audio lovers!!!

The actual "best sound" from my system appears wrong on the paper: as I already pointed out... wrong wall - the longer one, the mid-low horn is almost sitting on the floor and not suspended on the ceiling or on-top of a bass enclosure, the mid-high is half-way between mid-low mouth and driver and the tweeter is, vertically, between S-150 and S-400 horns, looking at side looking like a reversed "S"...

I noticed in another GAC's thread http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=6119 the BMS's and LeCleach/Concrete mid horns and tweeter was in the classic "hardcore", exagerated diaphragm/time aligning and wonder if what Jean Hiraga's hinted in his book was/is always an issue, something to be explored in our quiet houses, more than in a overcrowded room at an audio fair...


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
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