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11-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 1
Post ID: 5895
Reply to: 5895
Bahnsen Horns + some free tools
Hi everybody,

Anyone heard of these horns:

http://www.bahnsenengineering.dk/models.htm

Instead of using some costly, low resolution RTA, here is a free alternative:

http://www.libinst.com/SynRTA.htm

and Audio DiffMaker (signal difference extraction software):

http://www.libinst.com/SynRTA.htm

greetings

horny
11-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 5896
Reply to: 5895
Horns and boundary

Interesting idea indeed and very interesting crossover points. Denmark is generally is very advance country in terms of audio.

The Roundabout people said very little, is anything about their horns. However the is one subject that I do not like in there, even without knowing what they did and how the Roundabout installation sounds. Audio people are generally under impression that horns radiate Sound from mouth and whatever happens outside of mouth, and particularly behind is irrelevant. There is nothing could be further from truth – horns installations do feel the boundary presence as good as anything else.

The corner-loading horns are very tricky. They can do phenomenal LF equalization, develop wonderful tone and in lucky, hardly controllable circumstances, they can “load” room as no other topology does. However then all, with no exception produce a very idiosyncratic imaging that I call “far-field imaging” and mean thing about it is that nothing could be done to address it. The corner-loading might develop a superb depth of imaging but it still will be far behind a virtual “proximity line”, the line that in some way associated with wall between the speakers. It is superbly difficult to do anything with it. It is imposable to intentionally curve imaging with corner-loading or to extend presentation of events closer to listeners then this virtual “proximity line”…

 Romy the Cat wrote:
It even more interesting that his Magico speakers are sitting right next to the wall.

I recognize it as a characteristic problem of any corner-positioned installation.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 3
Post ID: 5905
Reply to: 5896
360 degree radiation patterns
The idea of 360 degree radiation of sound has great intuitive appeal to me since I feel the best recordings are done with two omnidirectional microphones.  The most precise reproduction of the musical event would seem to be: sounds enter microphone from all directions, then leave speakers from all directions.

Of course then there is the real world.  Compromises in design and all the implementation problems.  There was Ohm; mbl made a 360 degree electrodynamic speaker and there was another company that made a 360 degree horn guided tweeter and midrange with a traditional woofer -- I forget the name.  None of them ever really impressed me with a presentation of sound that was dramatically different or better than a traditional forward firing system.

And then there is this.  That when a recording is made, the sound of the room is recorded.  With a 360 degree radiation pattern, we superimpose the sound of that room on the listening room.  I suppose, we have to ask: WHY?  What specific limitations and restrictions of the forward firing horn schema are we overcoming with a 360 degree dispersion pattern?
11-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 4
Post ID: 5917
Reply to: 5905
360 degree radiation patterns
I always thought there are only two basically interesting approaches to the sound reproduction:
- eliminating the room effect as much as possible with a controlled disperssion of a forward firing horn
- or completely include room (a bogus idea, I know) by means of omnipolar radiation pattern
(example below, Duevel Loudspeakers with omni radiating compression drivers) or bipolar radiation pattern (identical set of drivers firing forward and backward)
Everything that falls in between those extreme categories, gives mostly inconsistent results (uneven power response).
But we`re talking about large differences here, if a forward firing horn sound could be described as "dry" (my impression), then an omnipolar horn
gives me sort of a "wet" impression of sound (soundstage appears very "airy", sometimes too much).
Personaly, I`m leaning toward that "drier" presentation, which gives more immediate presence and the "airyness" could be enhanced with a wider disperssion tweeters (very short, wide angle horns or direct radiators).

http://www.duevel.com/Produkte/Ejupiter.htm
11-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 5
Post ID: 5919
Reply to: 5917
Forgot...
http://www.duevel.com/test/E-DasWundervolle.htm
11-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 5923
Reply to: 5917
I am not necessarily in the 360-degree wagon

 drdna wrote:
The idea of 360 degree radiation of sound has great intuitive appeal to me since I feel the best recordings are done with two omnidirectional microphones.  The most precise reproduction of the musical event would seem to be: sounds enter microphone from all directions, then leave speakers from all directions.
I do see it as a valuable argument. Yes, the omnidirectional recording is fine but why do you feel it has any relation with omnidirectional traducing during reproduction stage? Recording deal with really that is infinitely omnidirectional. Reproduction does not deal with originals really but only with recording. The recording has already contained all omnidirectional space information. Why do you feel we need to imitate the space of realty if we do not recreate reality but rather musical impact to the reality?  I feel going for 360 degree radiation we repeat the fundamental mistakes that Home Theater people do, when better Home Theater inhalations shots itself in the foot be torpedoing proper viewing experience.
 drdna wrote:
With a 360 degree radiation pattern, we superimpose the sound of that room on the listening room.  I suppose, we have to ask: WHY?  What specific limitations and restrictions of the forward firing horn schema are we overcoming with a 360 degree dispersion pattern? 
The wide tweeter radiation is good, I like it but still I for a radiation control (I mean a tweeter, not soothing that is high-pass at 2K and care MF). The radiation control of tweeter as much a creative tool of audio and anything else. I doubt that I like an idea of full 360-degree dissipation with equal forth in all direction. Some companies do offer back fairing tweeters with attenuator to moderate volume of the “dipolenes”…
 horny wrote:
eliminating the room effect as much as possible with a controlled disperssion of a forward firing horn
It is what they promise on marketing booklets – never work in real live.
 horny wrote:
- or completely include room (a bogus idea, I know) by means of omnipolar radiation pattern
Why do you feel it is bogus idea. This is the ONLY one sensible way to behave.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 7
Post ID: 5926
Reply to: 5923
360 degree pattern
horny wrote:
- or completely include room (a bogus idea, I know) by means of omnipolar radiation pattern

Romy wrote:
Why do you feel it is a bogus idea. This is the ONLY one sensible way to behave.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because I meant omnipolar radiation pattern across the whole frequency spectrum and you probably meant only in the bass and upper bass...

regards

horny
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