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  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  104629  10-21-2010
08-29-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 5164
Reply to: 5164
The Edgarhorn RTA response.

Someone at AA’ sewers posted his measurements of Edgarhorn system, supplemented with a subwoofer and Fostex Tweeter. I do not know the poster personally, most likely he is another AA’s advice seeker – means another idiot - and therefore it is hardly possible to trust those measurements as those people hardly knew what and how they measure. In fact I have a suspicion, looking at that sweep, that this guy measured both channels….

Anyhow, I saw the Edgarhorn sweeps once, from the Vintage Audio Trader guy who use to post here, and I found it interesting to see what is going on with Edgarhorn.

The sweep looks truly horrible. I do not know how Bruce Edgar setting his crossovers but I do not think that he would release the system like this from his shop, though considering the scope of his customers he might "forget" to stick the MF drivers into the horn and those Morons would hardly notice it.  Most likely this specific Moron got the speakers second hand, piled the horns up, connected them “as is” and calls the crap the coming form the speaker as “Sound”. The channels at the sweep are obviously conflicting, in fact in it looks like they are in conraphase, and it is even painful to look at this sweep. Sure, the “AA’s advisers” suggested to this poor guy that “it is actually looks very good” and “measurement doesn't look too bad”…

Anyhow, if anyone has any Edgarhorn’s RTA success stores then post it…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 487
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 2
Post ID: 5166
Reply to: 5164
Ouch! That hurts.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
...though considering the scope of his customers he might not stick the MF drivers into the horn and those Morons would hardly notice anything.  Most likely this specific Moron got the speakers second hand...


Hey!  As it happens I have the Edgarhorn Titans, and I got them second hand, too.  I don't have an RTA so I can't speak to that, but if you can point me in the direction of an accurate and inexpensive RTA, I will be happy to provide some info. 

I think you need to be careful to hook up the speakers correctly because if they are positioned carelessly, they can present a weirdly juicy colorful sound when out of phase.  It can be a bit confusing since the midrange horn comes separately and it is easy to hook them up wrong if you don't look at the crossover first. 

After they are dialed into an exact position, which takes weeks and weeks, the coloration leaves the sounds and it becomes very calm, but like the ripples on water settling so you can see to the bottom of the pond, as you get closer to setting it up right, and the Sound emerges.

For me, it is not perfect, but it was a great horn speaker at a great price, and since I am not a horn speaker builder, it was the lazy man's way out.
08-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 5168
Reply to: 5166
...should not be anything related ...

Well, I do not know what should be hurtful in it. Bruce does have an idiosyncratic clientele and the absolute majority of them are heavily Morono-inclined.  I told it to Bruce but he himself is not a fool and he knows it very well without my assistance, he but the way take a full advantage of that fact – good for him!

Anyhow, I still, I would like to see the Edgarhorn’ sweeps from the individual channels with no crossovers as the garbage that this AA guy produced should not be anything related to any reasonable reality.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 5169
Reply to: 5164
The typical Edgarhorns users: now I feel masochistly pleased.

The AA Moron in response to my criticism give a birth something interpretable.  Here are the sweeps from Upperbass Horns and MF horn. I have no knowledge if the Moron removed the filters or the EQ circuits that might be used, wich sweeps he used and so on but what is absolutely obviously: the correlation between the given sweeps with the initial sweeps is the evidence that the Sound from that Edgarhorn system was  severely butchered. Sadly the butchered sound it exactly what Edgarhorns produce in most of the listening rooms. Should the Edgarhorns be blamed for it?

Edgarhorn_RTA_Upperbass.JPG



Edgarhorn_RTA_MF.JPG

Defiantly not, look tan the sweeps of the row drivers – very reasonable. The top response of the upperbass channel is challenged. I do not know why it is – a wrong driver, a wrong curve in J-horn or wrong made filter… The MF channel, even if has the stupid EQ circuits, looks fine, it looks like a typical “simple”, HF-deficient JBL driver..  but still very friendly. How that hell with those near exemplary responses the Moron was able to receive the garbage that he presented at the initials post I have no idea. Well, I have an absolutely clear idea what he did but I have absolutely no idea WHY he did the foolishness that he did. 

Most likely here is where the typical idiocy of the typical “AA intellectual” is took over  and made the Sound in direct correlation with the user’s “typicality”… Now, I feel masochistly gratified! As I always say: any loudspeakers in the hands of barbarian produce barbarian result. Talking about the typical Edgarhorns clientele….

Teh caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 5171
Reply to: 5169
The level of seriousness...

Well, the morons, particulary the Audio Groupies (read more here), at AA were mildly bitching about this thread, nothing new. Unfortunately the thread is a perfect depicturing of the typical level of results and the most important - the level of seriousness with which the American horns bottomeaters treat own “hobby”.

That guy, who was trying to tune his Edgarhorns it looks like have a lot of “equipment”, presumably have spent many years in audio, if you meet him he will be dropping smart empty phases, naming the names of designers and will advise you how to tune rollerblocks in order to “increase transparency“. For a typical majority if audio idiots the “credentials” works perfectly and they in their diaries write that they meet highly intelligent individual. Unfortunately the facts of Sound are facts. What is important to understand is that the given cretin did not make mistakes but he demonstrated an attitude that is way BEYOND THE LEVEL where he even would be able to register the mistakes and the recognize the negative consequences of the mistakes to Sound. Well, it is what the normal SLAUGHTERED AUDIOPHILES do ordinary.

How does it affect the Edgarhorns? That is very inserting question. As I always say: audio is not about the “things” but about people. The results are juts reflection of the intentions. Mahatma Gandy use to say that for a hungry person God is food. Well, for the ordinary AA cretins Audio is to get 4-ways system, fuck up all 4 drivers; further kill them with stupid custom crossovers and then pop up on-line pontificating about Sound. Sure it has nothing to do with Edgarhorns but I have seen a LOT of Edgarhorns users operating at the exactly the same level of seriousness. Is it a mysteries consequence? I do not know…

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 5188
Reply to: 5169
Edgarhorn Upper Bass
"The top response of the upperbass channel is challenged. I do not know why it is – a wrong driver, a wrong curve in J-horn or wrong made filter… "

That sweep mirrors what I hear - specifically tepid and weak upper bass in the presence region between 250 - 500 Hz. Bruce's horn is too short, the mouth is very slightly too small and the throat is too large. It is too small because, believe it or not, the limitation is the dimensions of the standard plywood sheets used to build the horn. Also, a larger horn would be "too hard to handle" (manufacturing and shipping), according to my source. And you know my source.

There are other issues too, like low-quality x-over components, 9dB attenuation on the 2441, the Fane tweeter, cabinet damping, etc. These can be easily remedied. The small upper bass horn can't.

Too bad. The Edgarhorn has potential to sound wonderful. The sub-bass and mids are fine after cleaning up the x-over, the hf is fine after substituting the driver. But the upper bass is lame in comparison to the rest.

08-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 5192
Reply to: 5188
Do you have better sweeps?
 skushino wrote:
"The top response of the upperbass channel is challenged. I do not know why it is – a wrong driver, a wrong curve in J-horn or wrong made filter… "

That sweep mirrors what I hear - specifically tepid and weak upper bass in the presence region between 250 - 500 Hz. Bruce's horn is too short, the mouth is very slightly too small and the throat is too large. It is too small because, believe it or not, the limitation is the dimensions of the standard plywood sheets used to build the horn. Also, a larger horn would be "too hard to handle" (manufacturing and shipping), according to my source. And you know my source.

There are other issues too, like low-quality x-over components, 9dB attenuation on the 2441, the Fane tweeter, cabinet damping, etc. These can be easily remedied. The small upper bass horn can't.

Too bad. The Edgarhorn has potential to sound wonderful. The sub-bass and mids are fine after cleaning up the x-over, the hf is fine after substituting the driver. But the upper bass is lame in comparison to the rest.
Scott, do you have individual driver’s 1/12db sweeps from listening position, on axis and with no no-crossovers attached? If you then can you post them. That idiots from AA most likely used on his sweeps some dummy filters that he made. The Bruce’s bass drivers shell not decay like this…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-29-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
NBC
California
Posts 22
Joined on 08-10-2006

Post #: 8
Post ID: 7324
Reply to: 5188
Poor quality crossover components?
Hi Skushino,

1) In your post above regarding certain(?) of Bruce's products, can you please identify *what* crossover parts you received or heard (in context of given system)
    which you feel are "low quality" ..?


2) Which model & value of Caps, Coils and/or Resistors did you find inferior..?
 
    (I know there are parts variations, as many of his creations are slightly different from each other, due to parts availablity, design changes and customer
    requests.)


3) In context of the given system(s) in which you evaluated sound, what specifically did you find ''wrong'' with these crossover parts..?


Thank you for your feedback,
NBC
Page 1 of 1 (8 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The CES 2005..  Follow-up: New horn guy in town....  Audio Discussions  Forum     16  96737  01-10-2005
  »  New  More about the EdgarHorn Bass..  More about the EdgarHorn Bass...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  19013  01-13-2005
  »  New  The EdgarHorns: the new old business plan..  Bruce Edgar retires....  Audio News Forum     17  113160  09-15-2005
  »  New  Crossover Design..  Surprise ? maybe, but I kinda doubt it...  Audio Discussions  Forum     69  385960  10-29-2005
  »  New  An Interview With Dr. Bruce Edgar..  An Interview With Dr. Bruce Edgar...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  41380  07-10-2007
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  104629  10-21-2010
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