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  »  New  The “Dead Points of Live Sound”..  Confused...  Playback Listening  Forum     28  246918  05-14-2005
07-16-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bruno Rivademar
Posts 5
Joined on 07-17-2020

Post #: 1
Post ID: 25878
Reply to: 25878
Dpols?
Hello Romy, been lurking around for some time now, I believe one of the first things I read from you was the DPOLS. Blew me away! Anyway, sometime ago I found an interesting video on youtube regarding a special speaker setup technique. This person speaks in very similar terms of the DPOLS and It definitely goes way beyond the wasp procedure. I will be trying it myself in a few weeks. Please give it a listen an let me know what you think. I guarantee you it'll be worth you time!. Cheers!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=84Pf0ycbyBM&t=2s

If the link doesn't work type " RMAF that's not natural" on youtube. The guy giving the lecture is Bob Robbins. 
07-18-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,713
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 25879
Reply to: 25878
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yep, Bruno. What Bob Robbins describes is exactly what DPOLS is all about. I was very surprised to hear it coming from the tranches of audio community. When I saw you posing a link to some kind of presentation at another audio show I did not click it for a few days. I kind of sick to hear all of those “industry leaders” telling publicly self-gratifying stores about their pathetic audio discoveries, which inevitably leads a listener to run a to buy another merchandise. When I forced to click it and skipped good first 15 minutes of Bob Robbins’ presentation I to my surprise discovered one of the most intelligent presentation audio subjects I ever heard. Mr. Robbins describes DPOLS perfectly. Thank you very much for posting it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-18-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bruno Rivademar
Posts 5
Joined on 07-17-2020

Post #: 3
Post ID: 25881
Reply to: 25879
You are welcome
You are welcome Smile
07-18-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 85
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 4
Post ID: 25882
Reply to: 25881
Robbins's method and DPOLS
I listened to this talk up to the beginning of the question-and-answer session. I am surprised that this method would really capture the essence of Romy's almighty DPOLS condition. It seems to me that Robbins is very much centered on imaging alone, apart from the initial bass optimization (with just one speaker) and it concerns me that he is committed to one specific, girl-and-string-bass recording. I can imagine a system having OK bass and a good center image and still sounding terrible in many other ways (frequency balance, tonal texture, coherence of large orchestral or choral works, you name it.) Robbins seems to claim that everything else is sorted out automatically once bass and imaging are "locked in" his way.

Well, maybe they are, and I can certainly believe that the Robbins approach would achieve a big improvement over the random or wrongheaded setups widely found in both homes and audio showrooms. But Romy described DPOLS as a unique pair of points that bring a sudden, vast improvement in sound, an improvement that is lost if either speaker moves even a centimeter from its dead point.  Robbins seems to describe a more forgiving algorithm, though again, the realities of DPOLS and the Robbins setup may be more similar than the descriptions.
07-19-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bruno Rivademar
Posts 5
Joined on 07-17-2020

Post #: 5
Post ID: 25883
Reply to: 25882
.
I think you have misinterpreted what Bob is saying. Having the  bass and center image right is only a means to an end. Not the end goal per se. Also, with the levels of precision he mentions in this procedure and considering the results only become aparent (explode) once you have perfectly completed each step, everything would collapse with the slightest movement. It's a very fragile thing if you think about it. So fragile indeed that with each component change you make you have to redo the process all over again. 
07-19-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,713
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 25884
Reply to: 25882
I am with Mr. Robbins on it.
 JJ Triode wrote:
I listened to this talk up to the beginning of the question-and-answer session. I am surprised that this method would really capture the essence of Romy's almighty DPOLS condition. It seems to me that Robbins is very much centered on imaging alone, apart from the initial bass optimization (with just one speaker) and it concerns me that he is committed to one specific, girl-and-string-bass recording. I can imagine a system having OK bass and a good center image and still sounding terrible in many other ways (frequency balance, tonal texture, coherence of large orchestral or choral works, you name it.) Robbins seems to claim that everything else is sorted out automatically once bass and imaging are "locked in" his way.

Well, maybe they are, and I can certainly believe that the Robbins approach would achieve a big improvement over the random or wrongheaded setups widely found in both homes and audio showrooms. But Romy described DPOLS as a unique pair of points that bring a sudden, vast improvement in sound, an improvement that is lost if either speaker moves even a centimeter from its dead point.  Robbins seems to describe a more forgiving algorithm, though again, the realities of DPOLS and the Robbins setup may be more similar than the descriptions.
  
JJ, I disagree with you, at least in my expectations. What Mr. Robbins describes to me feels exactly as DPOLS. He might use different terminology, but the result is very much the same. This micro-interactions between speakers and the room is very complex subject and no one who know what the subject all about would understand it, you just need to experience the DPOLS yourself once and then you have an idea what is all about. In fact, in western audio society, among what I came across and among the mainstream of audio participant’s, Mr. Robbins probably the only one who talk about it publicly and presumably practically consulting. Sure, there are zillion companies the offers this or that methodology of speakers’ setup and they mostly beneficial audio perspective but what Bob is talking about is very much next step forward. In fact, if you have the playback in the DPOLS then the frequency response become irrelevant and you might have +-15dB amplitude distortions and you will not be bothered.
 
I am considering hiring Mr. Robbins to set my playback to DPOLS. It might be challenging and there are many other factors that suggest me that I should not be doing it as it is waste of money. What Bruno said and what my former experience tells me that the DPOLS setting is extremely fragile and very easy to look it. You literally can change an interconnect cable and the things start fall apart. The said irony is that in some cases the reverse the interconnect cable back will not fix the problem. (!!!!) do not ask me to explain it, I cannot. In my case it is particularly very vulnerable as I have 14 independent active analog channels running. If a cathode of one of the tube loos emission for instance and the canals drops a fraction of DB will I lose all my DPOLS and all money that I paid to Robbins. Also, I have my kids constantly harassing my playback, they latterly chew my horns not to mention they miscalibrate anything imaginable. So, I feel it is a complete waste of money to do it in my room and with my playback.
 
Still, I am very much considering it to use Mr. Robbins as with my current life I do not have a couple days during which I can extract myself from my family and to indulge myself by speakers moving and attentive listening. I feel that outsource this task would be good and the money I paid to do it would be a good motivation to preserve the configuration. Sometimes it is nice to play off my own jewishness… :-). Also, I would like Mr. Robbins to explain to my wife how fragile the configuration is and that my instance that kind do not go to our listening room without me escorting them is not a manifestation of my domestic dictatorship but very reasonable requirement to protect the investment. I am willing to play upon her virtual Jewishness as well.
 
There is another point that I would like to bring. Mr. Robbins is greatly misunderstood when he is talking about imaging. The moronic industry players completely vandalized the subject of imaging and they presented it for years as some kind of listing commodity. The reality is that imaging is a tool, a byproduct of playback, that just need to be properly used as it reflects some other characteristics that very hard to measure (like a perception of room/speakers’ phase interactions). I have been advancing these subject years. For instance, the is a methodology that I developed that permits to find the DPOLS strictly by mono image plays by stereo systems.  The loser your spikers to perfect DPOLS Gspot the smaller mono image is and the further it moves away. If you have a mono image that make your closely recorded violin player to be imaged as it 100s feet away then do not switch your playback to stereo as what you will hear will make you ruin your life and you will understand that you never before hears any sound from playback. It is still not about sound; it is the physiological impact that sound has to awareness. It defines foe you that it is the plaice you need to be in so many ways. I literally can write a book how to observe the distance of that mono image, but who would understand it…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-19-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bruno Rivademar
Posts 5
Joined on 07-17-2020

Post #: 7
Post ID: 25886
Reply to: 25884
Don't worry
"I am considering hiring Mr. Robbins to set my playback to DPOLS. It might be challenging and there are many other factors that suggest me that I should not be doing it as it is waste of money. What Bruno said and what my former experience tells me that the DPOLS setting is extremely fragile and very easy to look it. You literally can change an interconnect cable and the things start fall apart. The said irony is that in some cases the reverse the interconnect cable back will not fix the problem. (!!!!) do not ask me to explain it, I cannot. In my case it is particularly very vulnerable as I have 14 independent active analog channels running. If a cathode of one of the tube loos emission for instance and the canals drops a fraction of DB will I lose all my DPOLS and all money that I paid to Robbins. Also, I have my kids constantly harassing my playback, they latterly chew my horns not to mention they miscalibrate anything imaginable. So, I feel it is a complete waste of money to do it in my room and with my playback"
I wouldn't worry too much about losing it though. He also sells a pdf with the step by step process. So if by any chance you lose the dpols you could get it back all by yourself! If he claims he can make it happen in the span of only a few hours someone with your listening experience would have no trouble doing it also, and quick!   I even feel confident I can do it myself without hiring him and I have little listening experience!..  

07-19-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 85
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 8
Post ID: 25888
Reply to: 25886
Knowing how to get it back
Romy,If you do hire Mr. Robbins then the key, I think, will be for you to observe and personally participate in his system tuning ceremony (he will in any case need another pair of hands to help move the Macondo around and especially in a way that will not break anything.) This way you can learn to do what he does and also give him a chance to factor Macondo's "extra degrees of freedom," like the ability to move drivers forward and back independently, into his method. What I am saying is that the educational effect of the visit is where the value will be found, not just the state of your installation at the moment you sign the check and take Mr. Robbins back to the airport. In this I basically agree with Bruno. I am still a bit concerned how the girl-with-string-bass will go over in your house, but Robbins himself said he is tired of that song and maybe you can educate him a bit about Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov...
I'll respond to the other comments elsewhere. Cheers, JJ
07-19-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 85
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 9
Post ID: 25889
Reply to: 25883
More about Bob Robbins
Bruno,Let me clarify some things. First, I am not making any negative criticism of Bob Robbins or his method. Not having heard a system set up his way, I cannot say anything definite about the results. Also, while I visited Romy twice (in Boston Back Bay and later in Lexington) his "installation" was not in DPOLS at that time (at least he did not say it was) so I am going only on his description of what a DPOLS configuration achieves.

Second, I did not say that attending to bass and center image alone couldn't bring everything else along with it, I only expressed some doubts but acknowledged it is possible. A number of people, including Romy, have talked about using aspects of imaging as a proxy for other things that need to get sorted out in speaker/room setup. Where I see possible differences from DPOLS is in the very different aspects of Sound that Romy talks about (tone color, culturally "load" of music etc) that presumably "exploded" when he hit the DPOLS in his earlier installations, and the extremely different kinds of music he listens to from the "runaway horse song." But maybe there is a common reality behind these methods.

Third, as to the level of precision required in Bob's method, I think in the 2015 lecture he was trying not to make his method sound too demanding to his audience. I imagine if done carefully, especially with a few iterations given that each change affects everything else, even a few millimeters or degrees could well make a big difference. I have observed this myself with some parameters of my own system adjustment process, which has some parallels with what Bob does, though also some differences. 
07-21-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,713
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 25891
Reply to: 25888
I see no problem in this.
 JJ Triode wrote:
… I am still a bit concerned how the girl-with-string-bass will go over in your house, but Robbins himself said he is tired of that song….

JJ, I know what you are taking about and references to “that song” is something that I very much acknowledge in Bob’s presentation. However, the typical in this situation complaining about the “girl-with-string” is not applicable. You see, finding DPoLS is not normal listening ceremony but what I call “targeted listening” when you need to listen very specific things and to arouse in yourself very specific sensations. Furthermore, you need to react in very specific way to the shortage of these sensations in one or another direction. You do remember I always told that a proper solution did not address just one problem but rather patches a collation of all problems? This is exactly how DPoLS works. A person tries to navigate himself in with a very narrow direction to a very specific expected destination to find the DPoLS and what the system does hits DPoLS then a truly explosive benefits happening, and all the things instantly fits like a glove. Also, I do not listen to that “song” music and have known attitude toward to it, but I also have some test songs that permit me to have some “target listening”, pulley for sake of system calibration. …and when a system properly calibrated then it “accidently” does all that true music tricks.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-24-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 345
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 11
Post ID: 25893
Reply to: 25888
HMMMMM
I must be missing something - or not be ready for this yet. Here are my understanding problems:
1) he starts with the "left" speaker and searches for the best bass. I would think that one should search individually with the left and right and pick the better of the two as everything else depends on the initial bass quality achieved. It would be interesting to know if a full sized speaker and a stand mounted "mini monitor" of similar height would get the same X/Y coordinates in a room. Is DPOLS a position involving X/Y and Z coordinates? What happens with a MTM configuration?
2) after both speakers get their X/Y coordinates, toe in is supposed to compensate for the virtual image position shift caused by early reflections. Even without horns, the off axis response of many speakers is not flat and asymmetrical toe in would lead to other issues - at least in my mind.
3) I wonder how much his "rake angle" is actually help to get some semblance of acoustical time alignment from standard speakers where all drivers are mounted on the same motor board.

IF DPOLS is a "LF" event, do we even need to position the melody range and HF at that same place?

I am sure that Bob Robbins would learn a lot with a system like Romys. If in fact this is the same as DPOLS (I have my doubts), a method for finding the position based on LF and mono image size based on toe in with playback height based on rake angle (or perhaps adjustment of physical time alignment) is a handy thing for evaluation...


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
07-24-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,713
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 25894
Reply to: 25893
Who knows....
 Rowuk, I did not read how Bob does it I do not think that what he does has anything to do with bass. I would be surpassed if it was. I mean, bass plays a lot of role in phase randomizing and in many other aspects of imaging, but I do not think that finding DPOLS has anything to do with bass itself. A playback in a given location and in giver room should produce it best bass, would it be at DPOLS or not. It is possible that Bob Robbins have found his own internal mental shortcut how to fine-tune a DPOLS observing some very specific aspect of bass. Possible. I hope his vision is not just a method to “get better bass”. I do not think that is as the very specific listening benefits he described have nothing to do with just bass but sound to me alike pure DPOLS listening benefits.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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