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05-12-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,700
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 25845
Reply to: 25845
About the thoughtfulness of large timing offset.
I have a long listening session yesterday and was thinking a lot about one interesting subject. Different playback systems differently present intentional “inconsistency” or better to say “unexpectancy” of timing. If you listen some truly masters to violate all timing markers and to play truly own individualistic music (Barbirolli, Golovanov, Celibidache, Scherchen come to mind) then with one playback their interpretations make more sense and with other has less sense.   

The minute (sort) offset of timing and an ability of payback to present it is well knows phenomena. Particularly it very auditable with piano, when great pianist could make magical micro-breakage of tempo, playing with “rhythmic holes”. Add to it sometime-constant or non-constant accompaniment that “offset” the rhythm ever further and we have a completely separate drama that not yet has to do anything with composition itself but presents own unique language of musical expression hat might very much work along with the program of the main composition. You need a great playback to handle it properly but generally it is not hard to accomplish by lowering intermodulation and using phase-constant playback. Then truly complex question comes: why and how different playbacks deal with not the minute offset of timing but large offset of timing. The large offset of timing are the conductor’s strategic tempos acceleration or deceleration. Here is where different playbacks present the large offset of timing in one case as a truly ingénues and deeply meaningful intention and in other cases as a stupid contra-orthodox move.  I have no idea what characteristic of playback is responsible for it.

The most interesting aspect to me in this subject is not that fact that different playback do it but that it variant in context of one playback. It feels to me that it changes with a system getting broken in. A fully broken-in playback does fine but if a playback is in the state I would say 80% of to be completely broken in then the ability of the playback to highlight the meaning of large timing offset very much magnifies and presented in a full philosophical glory. The fully broken in playback for sure sounds better but it also reduced some colors in highlighting the mindfulness of the large timing offsets.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-15-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 341
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 2
Post ID: 25846
Reply to: 25845
The art of tempo change
Actually, in the history of music, rhythm changes inside a phrase are not that old. Hugo Riemann coined the phrase Agogik (Agogics) in 1884 and the following things were included:
  • accel. (accelerando) – accellerate - play increasingly faster
  • string. (stringendo) – more hurried
  • ritard. or rit. (ritardando) – slow down
  • rall. (rallentando) – gradually slow down
  • smorz. (smorzando) – ersterbend
  • più (or menomosso – with more motion (or less)

Additional qualifiers: poco (‚a little‘), poco a poco (‚gradually‘), or ma non troppo (‚not too much‘)


Much earlier, sudden pauses were used to simulate an accent with instruments like the organ or harpsichord that had little possibilities with this type of more pronounced articulation. This is not to say that agogics were not performed before 1884, rather that the music world felt a need to describe the phenomena.


In audio playback, we hopefully have the "organic" recording where agogics are applied tastefully, and we have the level that keeps the phrase "connected" in spite of the additional length or space. Exaggerated articulation can destroy the feeling that notes belong to one another.




Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
05-17-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,700
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 25847
Reply to: 25846
That was not what I meant.
Actually I did not mean the timing offset dictated by musical or performing reasons. They are whatever they are. What I meant is how the performance timing get reflected by playback system.  Timing during a performing event is not the timing during listening a playback system. During live listening invent timing is a property of composition, acoustics and performer will/intention. During playback there is one more ingredient in place: the perceived timing alternation introduced by the language of audio transformations.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-18-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 341
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 4
Post ID: 25848
Reply to: 25847
It perhaps uses the same synapses?
The audiophools have a term PRaT: Pace, Rhythm and Timing that apply here - even if many do not understand that this is NOT something that makes you tap your toes to the banjo... Performing jazz musicians have a term "groove" that covers similar territory.

I believe that the played music very much relates to the audio transformations. If we watch an orchestra rehearse, the conductor waves his baton in a much different way than when the piece is performed. The rehearsal is to get the band together and once they can't get that wrong, the conductor is able to take "liberties" to shape the music. If a recording is a mixture of rehearsal and live concert, many times this is audible. If we watch the conductor very closely during a performance, our perception is very much influenced by the visuals.
When we play back a recording, I believe that it makes a HUGE difference if we are listening to this performance for the first time, or if we listen to it more often. The perception of agogics changes when we become familiar with what the orchestra did. Space (if the playback can even create the space) before a huge climax becomes very much an artistic element. In a small (compared to the performance space) environment, there is a lot of competition for space, room effects, articulation, density of tone, how connected notes are - as well as the liberties that the conductor and his soloists took (were allowed to take).
It is interesting to have a fine conductor listen to audio renditions of great performances. The score is often in their head and manipulation of space makes them think about completely different aspects of the performance, not just the drama. Very often, they do not even recognize their own performances.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
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