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04-07-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 2290
Reply to: 2290
Bruckner Ninth and the War.

I wonder if people could play the Bruckner’s Ninth during peace-time or the universal misery of this work do requires some presents of some war-like external non-resolvable tragedy?

The WWII started in end of 1944 when a first “Liberty” ship was trying to deliver a Yankees’ BBQ grill to England and accidentally lost direction in fog and hit Normandy… Ok, Ok, let do not mock the American’s sick perception of history.  The WWII started in September of 1939 when Germany invades Poland and since then unit Germany capitulated in May 1945 the Bruckner's Ninth was performed and recorded 3 times (at least the recordings that I am familiar with). All recordings are “live” and all of them are true benchmark of conducting and performing art. They also, as far as I concern are light miles further away then anything that was performed since then...

One of the greatest Dutch conductor Eduard van Beinum played in January 1941 with Concertgebouw. What an event, what a play! Did Concertgebouw even was able to develop such a great pressure via musicality even since? The insultingly brilliant Oswald Kabasta, who was an uncontestable king of musicality in South Germany, performed with his Munich Philharmonic in June 1943 another stunning Bruckner Nine. In 3 years Kabasta will be dead but not before Wilhelm Furtwangler with his Berlin Philharmonic in October 1944 delivered a final nail into the performing art of the Nine.  Were any more extraordinary Bruckner’s Ninth attempts since Beinum, Kabasta and Furtwangler?

Well, perhaps there were but… here is one huge problem for me – I can’t listen Bruckner, and particularly the Ninth, if the recording is, what the contemporary people consider “well-recorded”. I do not want “to hear the orchestra” but I need an orchestral to give me juts a general lead OF A DEMANDED MAGNITUDE and then, I want to reflect myself on the Bruckner’s “program” and to invent my own reading of this music….

So, what make the Bruckner’s Ninth from 1941, 1943 and 1944 to affect us so strongly? Was it the war? Was it the frustration of the people who played this music in 40s? Was it the better sound of the recording technologies in 40s? I do not know….

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-10-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 289
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 2302
Reply to: 2290
Re: Bruckner Ninth and the War.
Those are indeed great recordings, although for some reason I'm not as huge a fan of the Furtwaengler as most. But let it pass, let it pass.

One recording that you must become familiar with: Sigmund von Hausegger and the Munich Philharmonic (1938). It was the first, and followed (be a few years) that conductor's famous concert of two Bruckner Ninths -- Lowe's and Bruckner's. The former has scarce been heard of since. The performance is unsentimental and surprisingly fleet of foot. As it happens, I have a set of superb Victor pressings that sound far better than any LP or CD dub -- as per usual.

I think you have something there about live performances and the Ninth. Most of those on my list satisfy that criterion; I would respectfully add

Abendroth/Leipzig (1951)

Knappertsbusch/Berlin (1950)

E. Jochum/Bavarian RO

G.L Jochum/RIAS (1954)

And finally, a true standout even amongst superb 1940s and 50s company:

Serge Celibidache/SWDSO (c. 1962)

There's also a fine studio performance by F. Charles Adler.

clark
04-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 2306
Reply to: 2302
Re: Bruckner 1938 on Victor..
Wow, I do not know a half of them. Celibidache is very fine version indeed, although I do not like the Eugene Jochim’s performance at all. I never heard the Hausegger’s recording. I wonder if you have a good shape 78 pressing and if the performance worth it then would you like to convert into a good quality digital? I do not do it as now, but I might contemplate this opportunity and perhaps to make it available...

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-22-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 2325
Reply to: 2302
Sigmund von Hausegger with Munich from 1938

 clarkjohnsen wrote:
One recording that you must become familiar with: Sigmund von Hausegger and the Munich Philharmonic (1938). It was the first, and followed (be a few years) that conductor's famous concert of two Bruckner Ninths -- Lowe's and Bruckner's. The former has scarce been heard of since. The performance is unsentimental and surprisingly fleet of foot. As it happens, I have a set of superb Victor pressings that sound far better than any LP or CD dub -- as per usual.
Clark, I have found the Bruckner Nine from April 1938 with Munich Philharmonic lead by Sigmund von Hausegger. It was released by Austrian company Preiser Records, Otto G. Preiser & Co GmbH.

http://www.preiserrecords.at/2/aboutus.php

I was listening the recoding this morning. The transfer is very-very high quality, unexpectedly good; noise is filtered but very tastefully. Although I do like the von Hausegger’s version… hold on. I would not say that I like it but rather I do not hate it. Still it is not how I would like Bruckner Nine be played. The Munich Philharmonic is too elastic and too lush for this symphony. von Hausegger’s reading is too musical and too playful. It more sounds to me like polka dances of like the Tchaikovsky ballets then the Bruckner’s sound that I call “accordion accompanied stones in a drier”. After the WW2's Bruckner, the von Hausegger’s Bruckner sound overly melodic and almost blended. I think this reading would be very fine for Brahms but not for Bruckner. Well, I have to admit that that last moment was kind of nice if it were not followed the second movement that was “not there”.

Still, altogether is it very-very impressive and VERY non-annoying sound….from 1938

Rgs,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 2401
Reply to: 2325
Another off-the-wall Bruckner 9.

As I told before: screw the after war recordings of the Bruckner 9! I think it is not about the performances itself but the way in witch they are recorded. For whatever reasons Bruckner sound very strangely recorded if it is not live and if the poly-microphone techniques were uses. At least it requires taste the unfortunately many (if not all) sound engineers do not demonstrate. For instance the wonderful performance of Celibidache with Stuttgart Radio from beginning of 70s I find completely unlistenable. It mixes in so strange way that when I hear it I think that my speakers are broken as sounds pop up from all redirection at completes rand one locations and volumes.

Today I received from Israel the Mravinsky 1980 recording of the Bruckner 9 with Leningrad Philharmonic. Mravinsky recorded the peace 3 times: mid 50s, 1980, 1982, all recordings were “live”. I am not big fan of the Mravinsky orchestra from 80s, and I do not particularly like the Mravinsky’s readings from that time. But what was the most insulting that this recoding was like any other after-war recordings had that “audio quality: that destroyed the entire work.

I do not need to hear the distinct string section in the Bruckner 9. I do not need the “clarity”. To me the correct “Bruckner Sound: is something that I call “accordion sound” what everything is melted together and act as one “pressure force”.  Gabriel Garcia Marquez described the Bruckner’s sound as sounds coming from stones spinning in a washer machine. I think something like this was possible only in war-time recordings and then, the recording technologies become “too inappropriately good” to record Bruckner…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-28-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 21131
Reply to: 2290
Abbado's last recording
fiogf49gjkf0d
DG just released the Abbado's last consert of Bruckner 9 with Lucerne Festival Orchestra

http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4793441

It is very nice play with truly great orchestra.  The recording is live but crappy, too much mastered, still a very good B9

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-30-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 21359
Reply to: 2290
New B9 from Frankfurt
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just come in: Stanislaw Skrowaczewski and  Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra

http://concert.arte.tv/fr/stanislaw-skrowaczewski-bruckner 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rogier
Posts 12
Joined on 11-16-2006

Post #: 8
Post ID: 21372
Reply to: 21359
Bruckner 7
fiogf49gjkf0d
..played last weekend in Holland

http://www.radio4.nl/luister-concerten/concerten/4857/het-zondagochtend-concert-radio-flharmonisch-orkest-olv-markus-stenz

Kind regards, rogier
02-22-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 23022
Reply to: 2290
Tonight is the nigh of pleasure
I just declared the rest of the night and nigh of pleasure. I got home from work and cooked my favorite pork, vinegar peppers and potato with 44 years old Scotch. I need a nice taste in my belly for tonight…


Tonight will be very special treat. This week Boston Philharmonic plays Bruckner 9, Amy is playing and tonight I am going to a rehearsal at a VERY special place. Zander does rehearsal in Back Bay in some kind of building that looks like library and I LOVE to hear BPO in there. BPO is a freaky orchestra and they do not sound like the best orchestra in the world but sometimes they, probably accidently, throw some very out of ordinary results. It was 2-3 years back and they in the very same building rehearsed Bruckner 7. The sound in the building spectacular, it is a smaller room and with 100 people in the room is feel VERY intense. The first movement of BPO did not do so well but then as the kicked out the Adagio the stars suddenly aligned and they showed of the best second movement of the Bruckner 7 that I ever heard. I went to the concerts during that cycle but it was not even remotely as interesting as what they did during rehearsal. Also, it is hard to express how great the overall sound in that library. It is not big but it is kind of direct and goes directly to your hart instead then your ears. It might be a VERY good treat tonight….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-25-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 75
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 10
Post ID: 23034
Reply to: 23022
Tomorrow's concert
Best wishes for Amy's performance with BPO tomorrow. I knew she was "serious" about the viola but did not realize she played with an orchestra.  Pretty good for somebody who also takes care of three little kids, two cats, one Romy and a medical career too.
02-26-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 23036
Reply to: 23034
Here she is. Find a Cat....
BPO_B9_Amy.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-26-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 75
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 12
Post ID: 23039
Reply to: 23036
Finding Amy
My best guess is she is standing about midway on a line from the conductor to the tympani.
03-01-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 23044
Reply to: 23039
You can not find Amy.
JJ, do not even think that you can find Amy by investing 30 seconds of picture standing. It took for me 44 years to find her.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-26-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 288
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 14
Post ID: 23078
Reply to: 23044
Congratulations To Amy
 playing Bruckner with the Boston Phil. I trust you and she enjoyed it.

Bruckner symphonies apart from the early Nulls and B1 are quite hard to play. It isn't because the individual parts are so hard for pros of course but because Bruckner was thinking of the organ when he composed. All the sudden stops and starts of the full orchestra are not a problem on the organ because one person is using their own 10 fingers and feet. With a hundred persons it takes practice to stop and start precisely. I have seen good musicians turn into jelly trying to navigate them.

I would agree that excessive detailing does not benefit the B9. The harmonies are very chromatic and dark and it falsifies the scoring to lighten it or give it a more treble balance.
06-08-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 288
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 15
Post ID: 23250
Reply to: 23036
Hmmm
There are 2 women standing center right as the conductor views the orchestra near the front. Could be either but I guess the one more to the right.
06-13-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 288
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 16
Post ID: 23260
Reply to: 23250
Odd
I just noticed that there is a woman with viola standing right in front of the trombones behind the woodwinds. Were the violas put that far back or is she friends with a trombonist?
06-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 17
Post ID: 23261
Reply to: 23260
Dood eyes!
Yep, that was the Kitty, good eyes.  She played the last viola chairs. This position is not exactly the reflection of her play but rather the status she negotiated for herself in the orchestra. In contrary to most of the BPO musicians she does not drown salary for her involvement. This gives her more pleasure to play and some liberty to limit the participation in rehearsals. With her quite demanding job 110 miles away from the rehearsal location and with 3 kids home her ability do not attend all rehearsal is kind of critical. I also think that I know the other reasons the conductor agreed to keep her further from himself Amy is unspeakably beautiful when she plays and I think the conductor is afraid to be blinded by Amy cuteness and he decided to keep her at some distance.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 288
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 18
Post ID: 23262
Reply to: 23261
No need to explain
Neither she nor you need to be apologetic concerning her orchestral playing. I am astonished that given 3 young kids, working in the medical field (not quite sure what job she has) and married to an audiophile that she can do anything else let alone play serious music with an orchestra at public concerts. I just hope that the trombonist doesn't start attaching notes to the end of the slide as he plays right behind her Smile. I just was startled because I had never seen the violas put that far back but the stage is a bit small for full orchestra.
06-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,302
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 19
Post ID: 23263
Reply to: 23262
Yep, this is my Kitty.

AmyWithKIds.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (19 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Bruckner, me and the Seventh..  From Memory...  Musical Discussions  Forum     81  333387  07-17-2007
  »  New  Beethoven IX and Fürtwängler..  Holy Crap! (Music and Arts transfer)...  Musical Discussions  Forum     2  15562  08-11-2007
  »  New  The New York Philharmonic Live from North Korea..  The Arts and Politics...  Musical Discussions  Forum     2  12456  02-28-2008
  »  New  The Bruckner 5 by Benjamin Zander..  Defective Bruckner 5th...  Musical Discussions  Forum     6  28742  04-16-2008
  »  New  Ode to joy..  The angels must have smiled down upon them......  Musical Discussions  Forum     1  12745  08-23-2009
  »  New  Bruckner Sinfonie Nr.8, B. Haitink, Concertgebow-Orcher..  Bruckner with no attenuation....  Musical Discussions  Forum     1  12768  10-23-2009
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  49907  06-15-2010
  »  New  Thinking about Bruckner harmonies...  My Bruckner?...  Musical Discussions  Forum     9  39575  04-16-2011
  »  New  There is Bruckner and there is all the rest music...  Self-induced schizophrenia? Why not?...  Musical Discussions  Forum     5  20762  11-09-2011
  »  New  Easy Bruckner for Beginners...  Take me with you....  Musical Discussions  Forum     2  13315  12-01-2011
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