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05-29-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran
Posts 124
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 1
Post ID: 22623
Reply to: 22623
My Audio Philosophy
fiogf49gjkf0d
I know there is no reason to describe my view about high end audio but i do not know why i am interested to do that in this forum.

I think we could categorize audio systems in 3 level.
Level 1 is a system that make you sad in long listening session because the sound do not make you relax for music listening in long term.
Level 2 is a system that it's sound do not change mind focus from music to sound and it let you to listen to the music for long period of time. sound is not attractive but listener is relax .
Level 3 is a system that in long term make you more interested to music listening. the sound is beautiful and emotional in higher level of perception.

Level 1 systems are 90% of audio market in a moderate-wrong "setup".
Level 2 systems are minimalist old fashion audio systems in a moderate-good "setup".
Level 3 systems are micro linear in a good "setup".

"setup" mean :
- good acoustic system plus speaker placement
- good AC Power
- proper isolation both AC and mechanical
- matching


My idea about audio:
i believe romy idea : the sound of a system is a reproduced sound that it has no relation to live music. and we should not score audio in a "audio system sound vs live music" concept.

good sound come from micro linear audio systems not macro linear audio systems. (Allen Wright describe it as DDR)
micro linear means the system is linear in micro dynamic and micro harmonic .
micro harmonic means when the forground music volume is high then the low level background music volume swing be very coherent , transparent and smooth.
please consider i say volume swing resolution not low level signal resolution.   
micro harmonic means the midrange should have 3d depth and body and in mid/high the sound not be lean and dark. the sound harmonic should be colorful with spark.

micro linearity will improve by good analog source (master tape) and good acoustic and speaker placement and micro harmonic will improve by good acoustic and good AC Power and it is limited by audio components design.


http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=20975#20975

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=11134#11134

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/68/686087.html

y is output signal and x is input signal.

ideal linearity , micro and macro both are linear , y=kx:




y=f(x) this is not macro linear but it is micro linear




y=f(x) this is macro linear but it is not micro linear :




y=f(x) this is not micro linear and it is not macro linear:




I Love My Mom
05-30-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran
Posts 124
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 22624
Reply to: 22623
Correction
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Amir wrote:

micro harmonic means when the forground music volume is high then the low level background music volume swing be very coherent , transparent and smooth.


I correct:
"micro dynamic means when the forground music volume is high then the low level background music volume swing be very coherent , transparent and smooth."



I Love My Mom
06-01-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 3
Post ID: 22629
Reply to: 22623
Speculation!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Amir wrote:

micro linearity will improve by good analog source (master tape) ...

Pure speculation. not correct necessarily. 




@Cat: it seems there are still "morons" out there ;-) your "Mini-me" has dominated the majority of your precious time so less chance for you to rectify bystander's errors 


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
06-02-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran
Posts 124
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 22630
Reply to: 22629
Master Tape
fiogf49gjkf0d
I listened one time (just one time) to master tape (revox reel).
micro harmonic was so better than dCS Elgar (digital source) and it was better in micro dynamic. i did not tested good DSD in a good DAC vs good analog but in micro linearity analog and digital may be more close but in micro harmonic both were not close
 

generally good micro harmonic is harder to achieve than good micro dynamic.

i should add above graphs are very simplified edition just for showing my observation.
i am not 100% sure but i guess audio systems should react like graphs to frequency and power level changing.
i am not audio designer and my observation about relation of sound and electronics is more upon speculation . it is an theory .



I Love My Mom
06-02-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 22631
Reply to: 22629
Guilty as charged, your honor.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 op.9 wrote:
@Cat: it seems there are still "morons" out there ;-) your "Mini-me" has dominated the majority of your precious time so less chance for you to rectify bystander's errors 

Yes, to a large degree it is true. Lately I do not patrol audio internet as much and do not degauss it from typical idiocy. The Mini-me is juts a part of problem. We are having more king in progress, moving to new house, new mine and my wife jobs, logistic preparations for everything above and many other things slice off a lot of time. Also, the pleasure of gratification is the factor. If I point out at my site that another time some kind of celebrated buffoons like Myles Astor or Jonathan Valin  have expressed their next schedule stupidity about another irrelevant audio product  in order to make the stupid  audio crud to run and to buy the crap then I do not particularly feel any personal gratification from it. My relationship with audio and my audio interests are located at very different level relative to what available at “official” audio or even public audio. I do admit that I like to pock the idiots but I have other and way more pleasurable to me tasks to compete for my time, at least for now. I am in process of organizing my new listening room that is very interesting for me and that with all my other action will take for a while
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-02-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 6
Post ID: 22633
Reply to: 22630
Just me and a keyboard and a cup of coffee...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Amir wrote:
I listened one time (just one time) to master tape (revox reel).
micro harmonic was so better than dCS Elgar (digital source) and it was better in micro dynamic. i did not tested good DSD in a good DAC vs good analog but in micro linearity analog and digital may be more close but in micro harmonic both were not close
 

generally good micro harmonic is harder to achieve than good micro dynamic.

i should add above graphs are very simplified edition just for showing my observation.
i am not 100% sure but i guess audio systems should react like graphs to frequency and power level changing.
i am not audio designer and my observation about relation of sound and electronics is more upon speculation . it is an theory .

In what way it sounded better? according to what criteria? who judged it? you? so it's a subjective and probably a biased opinion so you shall not generalize it to other listeners so I'm just amazed how can you define such an exact categorizations. I don't wanna insult you but all your point of views (to me) is playing with words and are moronic ideas. after all I have my ears with me and my feeling will tell me if the sound is good enough that I can live with it thus I don't need a particular moronic instruction to tell me if the sound if good. I didn't want to stroke that many of dirty keyboard keys about your philosophical headlines but I have no way to slip through, so: 

 Amir wrote:
I think we could categorize audio systems in 3 level.Level 1 is a system that make you sad in long listening session because the sound do not make you relax for music listening in long term.Level 2 is a system that it's sound do not change mind focus from music to sound and it let you to listen to the music for long period of time. sound is not attractive but listener is relax .Level 3 is a system that in long term make you more interested to music listening. the sound is beautiful and emotional in higher level of perception.
People are people. they are not statisticians and they listen to music on an irregular basis. the degree of satisfaction or listening fatigue and exhaustion differs from person to person. I've seen people listening to such a horrible sound of a PA loudspeaker at high pressure levels of +120dB that will make a billy goat to vomit! and they even enjoy it. so keeping this in mind you can't address what people like or dislike unless you investigate a considerable statistical population of listeners and come up with results. besides who is qualified to determine the border between categories you posed?
 Amir wrote:
Level 1 systems are 90% of audio market in a moderate-wrong "setup".Level 2 systems are minimalist old fashion audio systems in a moderate-good "setup".Level 3 systems are micro linear in a good "setup".

Seems you're pretty darn good at guessing and coming up with %s and absolute numbers ;-)

 Amir wrote:
good sound come from micro linear audio systems not macro linear audio systems. (Allen Wright describe it as DDR)micro linear means the system is linear in micro dynamic and micro harmonic .micro harmonic means when the forground music volume is high then the low level background music volume swing be very coherent , transparent and smooth.
we know what "downward dynamic range" is. where did that term "micro linear" come from?! who concocted and coined this word? downward dynamic range is the ability of an audio system to retain low level "micro dynamic" and details while producing the louder levels. a good system should have adequate instantaneous dynamic range which means the ability to emit higher voltages in time domain for an amplifier. sometimes it's mistaken as the speed of amplifier. I suggest you to google and read about amplifier slew rate and IMD. speakers are also moving systems so their speed might play some role here as I think an ideal speaker must be fast enough to retain that details...
 Amir wrote:
micro harmonic means the midrange should have 3d depth and body and in mid/high the sound not be lean and dark. the sound harmonic should be colorful with spark.
what you described here is like talking about neo-expressionism art in mathematics class. I think there are more issues here. a system with good linear response doesn't necessarily make midrange (vocal?) three dimensional.
 Amir wrote:
micro linearity will improve by good analog source (master tape) and good acoustic and speaker placement and micro harmonic will improve by good acoustic and good AC Power and it is limited by audio components design.

pure speculation! that's a moot point remains to be proofed as I told. Amir I think you lack the experience of auditioning good-sounding "setups" as I can see you are living in Iran so I think there is less possible chance for an Audiophile to run into varieties there. try to listen to more sounds and forget about everything else. just rely on your feeling when you listen to music


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
06-02-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 7
Post ID: 22634
Reply to: 22631
What a pity :-\
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 op.9 wrote:
@Cat: it seems there are still "morons" out there ;-) your "Mini-me" has dominated the majority of your precious time so less chance for you to rectify bystander's errors 

Yes, to a large degree it is true. Lately I do not patrol audio internet as much and do not degauss it from typical idiocy. The Mini-me is juts a part of problem. We are having more king in progress, moving to new house, new mine and my wife jobs, logistic preparations for everything above and many other things slice off a lot of time. Also, the pleasure of gratification is the factor. If I point out at my site that another time some kind of celebrated buffoons like Myles Astor or Jonathan Valin  have expressed their next schedule stupidity about another irrelevant audio product  in order to make the stupid  audio crud to run and to buy the crap then I do not particularly feel any personal gratification from it. My relationship with audio and my audio interests are located at very different level relative to what available at “official” audio or even public audio. I do admit that I like to pock the idiots but I have other and way more pleasurable to me tasks to compete for my time, at least for now. I am in process of organizing my new listening room that is very interesting for me and that with all my other action will take for a while
 

Romy all these seems acceptable. I hope the little cat Thomas David is doing just fine and you enjoy growing him. moving always demands a huge amount of CPU process hope that is done as scheduled. it's a pity you have to abandon those fantablous ceiling midbass horns. I would gladly come by there to remove Vitavox drivers if you don't want them! ;-)


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
06-02-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 22635
Reply to: 22634
It is OK
fiogf49gjkf0d
 op.9 wrote:
Romy all these seems acceptable. I hope the little cat Thomas David is doing just fine and you enjoy growing him. moving always demands a huge amount of CPU process hope that is done as scheduled. it's a pity you have to abandon those fantablous ceiling midbass horns. I would gladly come by there to remove Vitavox drivers if you don't want them! ;-)

 In the whole story of wonderful ceiling midbass horns are the only hostages of the situation. This type of projects truly come one a life-time. But you know what: one door closes another door opens. I am very certain that I will come up in new listening room with some kind of setting that would make sound equally nice. Furthermore, I have a hunch that Vitavox 15 sounds better at lower compression then I had in my older horns. So, I will experiment with it.  I do not give up the idea of midbass horns in my new listening room but it will be in future as kids get older. Also, you will love the setting of my new listening room. That is as close M4 paradise as one can get.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran
Posts 124
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 9
Post ID: 22636
Reply to: 22633
My View
fiogf49gjkf0d
 op.9 wrote:
 Amir wrote:
I listened one time (just one time) to master tape (revox reel).
micro harmonic was so better than dCS Elgar (digital source) and it was better in micro dynamic. i did not tested good DSD in a good DAC vs good analog but in micro linearity analog and digital may be more close but in micro harmonic both were not close
 

generally good micro harmonic is harder to achieve than good micro dynamic.

i should add above graphs are very simplified edition just for showing my observation.
i am not 100% sure but i guess audio systems should react like graphs to frequency and power level changing.
i am not audio designer and my observation about relation of sound and electronics is more upon speculation . it is an theory .

In what way it sounded better? according to what criteria? who judged it? you? so it's a subjective and probably a biased opinion so you shall not generalize it to other listeners so I'm just amazed how can you define such an exact categorizations. I don't wanna insult you but all your point of views (to me) is playing with words and are moronic ideas. after all I have my ears with me and my feeling will tell me if the sound is good enough that I can live with it thus I don't need a particular moronic instruction to tell me if the sound if good. I didn't want to stroke that many of dirty keyboard keys about your philosophical headlines but I have no way to slip through, so:


Hey , I judge the sound by myself , you judge the sound by yourself but we could have common area in our view if we be trained listener, do not search criteria if you believe good sound really exist. biased opinion is between beginner listeners not professional listeners.
i should say again and again that good sound exist and our brain detect it but if we try to describe why the sound is good our ability will be restricted by our language. i just try to share my subjective view.
defining sound categorization is not easy and i told you these words are simplified version of my idea about sound. our brain is very complex and sound of systems is very different in out mind . i try to detect what thing in the sound make me more happy.

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
I think we could categorize audio systems in 3 level.Level 1 is a system that make you sad in long listening session because the sound do not make you relax for music listening in long term.Level 2 is a system that it's sound do not change mind focus from music to sound and it let you to listen to the music for long period of time. sound is not attractive but listener is relax .Level 3 is a system that in long term make you more interested to music listening. the sound is beautiful and emotional in higher level of perception.
People are people. they are not statisticians and they listen to music on an irregular basis. the degree of satisfaction or listening fatigue and exhaustion differs from person to person. I've seen people listening to such a horrible sound of a PA loudspeaker at high pressure levels of +120dB that will make a billy goat to vomit! and they even enjoy it. so keeping this in mind you can't address what people like or dislike unless you investigate a considerable statistical population of listeners and come up with results. besides who is qualified to determine the border between categories you posed?


i do not agree "listening fatigue" is differ from one person to another person.
enjoyment in short period of time is different between listeners but long term satisfaction is unique to all and in long listening term all listeners sound reaction is similar. 


 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
Level 1 systems are 90% of audio market in a moderate-wrong "setup".Level 2 systems are minimalist old fashion audio systems in a moderate-good "setup".Level 3 systems are micro linear in a good "setup".

Seems you're pretty darn good at guessing and coming up with %s and absolute numbers ;-)



my english reading is not good . i do not understand above quote. please describe it again to me.


 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
good sound come from micro linear audio systems not macro linear audio systems. (Allen Wright describe it as DDR)micro linear means the system is linear in micro dynamic and micro harmonic .micro harmonic means when the forground music volume is high then the low level background music volume swing be very coherent , transparent and smooth.
we know what "downward dynamic range" is. where did that term "micro linear" come from?! who concocted and coined this word? downward dynamic range is the ability of an audio system to retain low level "micro dynamic" and details while producing the louder levels. a good system should have adequate instantaneous dynamic range which means the ability to emit higher voltages in time domain for an amplifier. sometimes it's mistaken as the speed of amplifier. I suggest you to google and read about amplifier slew rate and IMD. speakers are also moving systems so their speed might play some role here as I think an ideal speaker must be fast enough to retain that details...



I defined the Micro linearity as the graph shows what i mean. both dynamic and harmonic could be view in terms of micro linearity.
good dynamic is both speed and non-compress sound. speed of amplifier (Slew rate) in transient is more related to macro linearity not micro linearity.


 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
micro harmonic means the midrange should have 3d depth and body and in mid/high the sound not be lean and dark. the sound harmonic should be colorful with spark.
what you described here is like talking about neo-expressionism art in mathematics class. I think there are more issues here. a system with good linear response doesn't necessarily make midrange (vocal?) three dimensional.


hey , 3D image do not mean "3D soundstage with good depth" , in my view right micro harmonic make you feel the vocal has depth and it has no relation to soundstage depth.
linear harmonic refer to both amplitude and phase in frequency domain


 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
micro linearity will improve by good analog source (master tape) and good acoustic and speaker placement and micro harmonic will improve by good acoustic and good AC Power and it is limited by audio components design.

pure speculation! that's a moot point remains to be proofed as I told. Amir I think you lack the experience of auditioning good-sounding "setups" as I can see you are living in Iran so I think there is less possible chance for an Audiophile to run into varieties there. try to listen to more sounds and forget about everything else. just rely on your feeling when you listen to music


I think i have average to good experience in iran , check my website www.hifi.ir , i listened to many systems in many setups.
DPOLS concept never read in romy site before our real experience in tehran.
one night we placed speaker and the sound became 1000 times better than past. i searched the internet for the reason and i found romy site. before that night i never be familiar with romy site.
DPOLS article was my first visit to this forum.
 
Thank you
Amir







I Love My Mom
06-04-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 10
Post ID: 22638
Reply to: 22635
Too stubborn to say "never again"
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 op.9 wrote:
Romy all these seems acceptable. I hope the little cat Thomas David is doing just fine and you enjoy growing him. moving always demands a huge amount of CPU process hope that is done as scheduled. it's a pity you have to abandon those fantablous ceiling midbass horns. I would gladly come by there to remove Vitavox drivers if you don't want them! ;-)

 In the whole story of wonderful ceiling midbass horns are the only hostages of the situation. This type of projects truly come one a life-time. But you know what: one door closes another door opens. I am very certain that I will come up in new listening room with some kind of setting that would make sound equally nice. Furthermore, I have a hunch that Vitavox 15 sounds better at lower compression then I had in my older horns. So, I will experiment with it.  I do not give up the idea of midbass horns in my new listening room but it will be in future as kids get older. Also, you will love the setting of my new listening room. That is as close M4 paradise as one can get.

Romy I know what are you talking about. I believe the midbass region contains a huge amount of musical content and would call it the blood veins of a horn system. I don't believe all good things must come to an end so I'm sure you'll find the way out of the situation of "no midbass horn" or you'll come up with a plan B. lower compression ratio is not always a bad thing- A lesson I learnt while working with M200 CD. I'm eager to see new listening room. 


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
06-05-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 11
Post ID: 22639
Reply to: 22636
A linear sequence of cascading controversial mistakes
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Amir wrote:

Hey , I judge the sound by myself , you judge the sound by yourself but we could have common area in our view if we be trained listener, do not search criteria if you believe good sound really exist. biased opinion is between beginner listeners not professional listeners.
so after all it's your opinion ain't it? come on man! 100 people might have 99 different opinions. we Audiophiles are such an elaborately metaphysical creatures. even highly regarded ears have points of conflict in between. 

 Amir wrote:

i should say again and again that good sound exist and our brain detect it but if we try to describe why the sound is good our ability will be restricted by our language. i just try to share my subjective view.
I think the level of listening pleasure for each listener is the key. that's it.
 Amir wrote:
defining sound categorization is not easy and i told you these words are simplified version of my idea about sound. our brain is very complex and sound of systems is very different in out mind . i try to detect what thing in the sound make me more happy.
the point is that the listener doesn't need to have a certain description of a good sound at all. his feeling while listening will tell him everything.
 Amir wrote:
i do not agree "listening fatigue" is differ from one person to another person.
enjoyment in short period of time is different between listeners but long term satisfaction is unique to all and in long listening term all listeners sound reaction is similar.  
 your opinion I respect that and have no argument. 
 Amir wrote:
my english reading is not good . i do not understand above quote. please describe it again to me.
nothing remarkable. I was just amazed how accurate you are at guessing and predicting like Nostradamus

 Amir wrote:
I defined the Micro linearity as the graph shows what i mean. both dynamic and harmonic could be view in terms of micro linearity.
good dynamic is both speed and non-compress sound. speed of amplifier (Slew rate) in transient is more related to macro linearity not micro linearity.
hey , 3D image do not mean "3D soundstage with good depth" , in my view right micro harmonic make you feel the vocal has depth and it has no relation to soundstage depth.
linear harmonic refer to both amplitude and phase in frequency domain

I believe that there is nothing to concern about what you described as "micro linearity" (still a spuriously coined phrase to me). Linearity has it's own definition. we know what elements affect the linearity of an amplifier and we know all about Slew Rate and IMD blah blah blah. My point is: it's a very difficult job to design and build an amplifier with a non-linear behavior in very small scales of frequency and amplitude. matter of fact despite it's not a good thing but I'm sure it's a hard job to achieve even though a designer intends to do this deliberately but overall non-linearity is easy to get to and for sure it's a nasty thing. I think most of the non-linearity in small scales is caused by speaker impedance variance that will affect the amplifiers that have no loud-independent bandwidth. 


 Amir wrote:
I think i have average to good experience in iran , check my website www.hifi.ir , i listened to many systems in many setups.
DPOLS concept never read in romy site before our real experience in tehran.
one night we placed speaker and the sound became 1000 times better than past. i searched the internet for the reason and i found romy site. before that night i never be familiar with romy site.
DPOLS article was my first visit to this forum.

I'm just shocked how the heck a sound can get 1000 times better even if we are talking in a maniacal unit-less measurement system! 1000 times?! what have you been listening before changing the placement?!I think you won't get anywhere with those extravagant opinions of yours. Audio science doesn't come from east. world is not anxious for a bravado from a 3rd world country to come up with moronic audio philosophical headlines and play the role of Jean-Paul Sartre of Audio world and start spreading out all these ideas. matter of fact experts in west have been experiencing and writing books about this in a practical manner while your mama (who you love) was still wiping your nose. Slew rate, IMD, downward dynamic range and many other technical terms are all known issues so it's definitely needless and pointless to pose subjects like this that come from a narrow mind. you are trying to coin new word like "micro/macro linearity" and some other moot-points that all are worth nothing more than a baby burp. all in all a guy like you with limited audio experience with big game-changing point of views won't draw that much of interest, the same situation here. I think you'd better to try to listen to more stereo setups so you'll find out gradually what the is the hi-fi game all about. period.
guys just excuse possible typo I was typin' in rush hour ;-o


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
06-05-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,051
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 12
Post ID: 22640
Reply to: 22639
"Correcting Errors"
fiogf49gjkf0d
This concept is well understood and it has been implemented in amplifiers with various forms of feedback, one might say, "culminating" with differential amplifiers.  In TTs and speaker drivers (usually woofers), we see/hear "servo".  By any "measure" these methods seem to work as planned, though, in fact and as ever, listener reactions vary when implementations are subjected to "listening tests". OP, I think Amir is not so much predicting as he is sketching a "back story", in typical "scientist" fashion, expressing some current understanding, and "testing" thoughts in this forum. Dialog, as it were.

Best regards, Paul S
06-07-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran
Posts 124
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 13
Post ID: 22642
Reply to: 22639
Taylor Series
fiogf49gjkf0d
 op.9 wrote:
 Amir wrote:

Hey , I judge the sound by myself , you judge the sound by yourself but we could have common area in our view if we be trained listener, do not search criteria if you believe good sound really exist. biased opinion is between beginner listeners not professional listeners.
so after all it's your opinion ain't it? come on man! 100 people might have 99 different opinions. we Audiophiles are such an elaborately metaphysical creatures. even highly regarded ears have points of conflict in between.


OK , 100 beginner listener have 99 different opinion but trained listeners have more common idea. general listeners shop krell , ML , focal , wilson ,magico, B&W quad manger weiss and ... but most professional listeners listen to horn and linear low power tubes.

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
defining sound categorization is not easy and i told you these words are simplified version of my idea about sound. our brain is very complex and sound of systems is very different in out mind . i try to detect what thing in the sound make me more happy.
the point is that the listener doesn't need to have a certain description of a good sound at all. his feeling while listening will tell him everything.


OK you are right but i like to try that. it is not easy but i try to do that.

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
my english reading is not good . i do not understand above quote. please describe it again to me.
nothing remarkable. I was just amazed how accurate you are at guessing and predicting like Nostradamus 


The only thing that limit me is my english language skill not my knowledge about my idea

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
I defined the Micro linearity as the graph shows what i mean. both dynamic and harmonic could be view in terms of micro linearity.
good dynamic is both speed and non-compress sound. speed of amplifier (Slew rate) in transient is more related to macro linearity not micro linearity.
hey , 3D image do not mean "3D soundstage with good depth" , in my view right micro harmonic make you feel the vocal has depth and it has no relation to soundstage depth.
linear harmonic refer to both amplitude and phase in frequency domain

I believe that there is nothing to concern about what you described as "micro linearity" (still a spuriously coined phrase to me). Linearity has it's own definition. we know what elements affect the linearity of an amplifier and we know all about Slew Rate and IMD blah blah blah. My point is: it's a very difficult job to design and build an amplifier with a non-linear behavior in very small scales of frequency and amplitude. matter of fact despite it's not a good thing but I'm sure it's a hard job to achieve even though a designer intends to do this deliberately but overall non-linearity is easy to get to and for sure it's a nasty thing. I think most of the non-linearity in small scales is caused by speaker impedance variance that will affect the amplifiers that have no loud-independent bandwidth.


OP
I'm 37 years old and i am electronics engineer from KNTU (one of 5 top university in tehran) , many of my university friends now are working in USA and Canada .
I know what is define of linearity in physics , i just say non-linearity could be view from two side : macro and micro.
macro non-linearity is THD and micro non-linearity is viewing higher order of harmonics. micro linearity care about higher harmonics and if you use high feedback loop then you decrease THD but you increase higher harmonic orders. negative feedback mask beautiful micro harmonics.

in mathematics we have taylor series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_series). please read it carefully.
we analyse systems in frequency domain by using fourie series. finally in each frequence we have amplitude and phase.
when you apply one frequnce like 1khz then you measure output signal (in load condition like connecting amp to speaker) the output voltage vs input voltage curve should describe by taylor series. the taylor series will tel you about harmonics.
you can check my graphs and in that graphs micro linear system has higher amplitude first order of taylor series and no higher orders in graph.

macro linearity is the same engineers measure but miaco linearity is a function that show you what shape of non linearity is less important to your ears.
i do not say i exactly know that shape but it seems i can give you an idea about that with my graphs.

when you beark-in a cable there is no large difference between break-in cable measurement and non-breakin measurement but if your ear detect huge difference. micro linearity will describe it in objective measurement.


 

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
I think i have average to good experience in iran , check my website www.hifi.ir , i listened to many systems in many setups.
DPOLS concept never read in romy site before our real experience in tehran.
one night we placed speaker and the sound became 1000 times better than past. i searched the internet for the reason and i found romy site. before that night i never be familiar with romy site.
DPOLS article was my first visit to this forum.

I'm just shocked how the heck a sound can get 1000 times better even if we are talking in a maniacal unit-less measurement system! 1000 times?! what have you been listening before changing the placement?!I think you won't get anywhere with those extravagant opinions of yours. Audio science doesn't come from east. world is not anxious for a bravado from a 3rd world country to come up with moronic audio philosophical headlines and play the role of Jean-Paul Sartre of Audio world and start spreading out all these ideas. matter of fact experts in west have been experiencing and writing books about this in a practical manner while your mama (who you love) was still wiping your nose. Slew rate, IMD, downward dynamic range and many other technical terms are all known issues so it's definitely needless and pointless to pose subjects like this that come from a narrow mind. you are trying to coin new word like "micro/macro linearity" and some other moot-points that all are worth nothing more than a baby burp. all in all a guy like you with limited audio experience with big game-changing point of views won't draw that much of interest, the same situation here. I think you'd better to try to listen to more stereo setups so you'll find out gradually what the is the hi-fi game all about. period.
guys just excuse possible typo I was typin' in rush hour ;-o


OP
please care, with harsh keyboard you can not bother me, please be relax and polite then try to critic the subject .
the sound is far better when the speaker is in a good place. please go home and try to test it before attacking me.
OK "Audio science doesn't come from east" but it do not come from your harsh keyboard .
OK , I live in 3rd world country but this topic is not a place for attacking "3rd world country" people. vote trump then go USA army for attacking 3rd world country. :-))








I Love My Mom
06-07-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 14
Post ID: 22643
Reply to: 22642
There are no happy endings
fiogf49gjkf0d
re">
 Amir wrote:

OK , 100 beginner listener have 99 different opinion but trained listeners have more common idea. general listeners shop krell , ML , focal , wilson ,magico, B&W quad manger weiss and ... but most professional listeners listen to horn and linear low power tubes.  
wrong. don't try to put me against horns and tubes. I'm a fanatic repeated felon in horn speakers world and still at large and armed to horns already
 Amir wrote:
OK you are right but i like to try that. it is not easy but i try to do that.
 

you can run idle in an infinitive circle forever. it's up to you
 Amir wrote:
The only thing that limit me is my english language skill not my knowledge about my idea
 
you are limited to your limited understanding of electronics. I'm not here to verify your English skills but I'm in some kinda language barrier here
 Amir wrote:
I'm 37 years old and i am electronics engineer from  KNTU  (one of 5 top university in tehran) , many of my university friends now are working in USA and Canada .
 
there is always a black sheep in the group. if you were smart like your friends you'd be in the position that they are working right now. besides, I'm amazed how that KNTU university is among five top universities of Iran but you as one of it's graduates lack the adequate basic English skills which is a "must have" skill for one who studies in technical fields. 
 Amir wrote:
when you beark-in a cable there is no large difference between break-in cable measurement and non-breakin measurement but if your ear detect re">huge difference. micro linearity will describe it in objective measurement.  re">

speculation
 Amir wrote:
please care, with harsh keyboard you can not bother me, please be relax and polite then try to critic the subject .
re"> the sound is far better when the speaker is in a good place. please go home and try to test it before attacking me.
OK "Audio science doesn't come from east" but it do not come from your harsh keyboard .
OK , I live in 3rd world country but this topic is not a place for attacking "3rd world country" people. vote trump then go USA army for attacking 3rd world country. :-))  
Uh come one man! take a deep breath! I was just posing my opinions about your opinions (still moronic to me). that's it. Seems you Iranian people are good at getting trigger-happy without batting at eye! Okay okay I confess everything all that nonsense as "micro/macro linearity" is practiced science. take me in to your central booking and shed that famous light on my face and book me but please don't nuke me I don't wanna die I still have works to do! :-) 
BTW I'm not an american and I'm not gonna vote for Trumph but after all your hallucination about US army and attacking other countries was funny as hell to me. 
I'm just outta this BS micro/macro linearity myth. period.







everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
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Amir
Iran
Posts 124
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Post #: 15
Post ID: 22644
Reply to: 22643
Wrong discussion
fiogf49gjkf0d

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
The only thing that limit me is my english language skill not my knowledge about my idea
 
you are limited to your limited understanding of electronics. I'm not here to verify your English skills but I'm in some kinda language barrier here


wrong speculation

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
I'm 37 years old and i am electronics engineer from  KNTU  (one of 5 top university in tehran) , many of my university friends now are working in USA and Canada .
 
there is always a black sheep in the group. if you were smart like your friends you'd be in the position that they are working right now. besides, I'm amazed how that KNTU university is among five top universities of Iran but you as one of it's graduates lack the adequate basic English skills which is a "must have" skill for one who studies in technical fields. 


not all of my friends migrated to USA , I have a good position in iran , I never interested to live out of my country. i never interested to learn English .

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
when you beark-in a cable there is no large difference between break-in cable measurement and non-breakin measurement but if your ear detect re">huge difference. micro linearity will describe it in objective measurement.  re">

speculation


i can not describe more clear than this , maybe some body could tell you about that.

 op.9 wrote:

 Amir wrote:
please care, with harsh keyboard you can not bother me, please be relax and polite then try to critic the subject .
re"> the sound is far better when the speaker is in a good place. please go home and try to test it before attacking me.
OK "Audio science doesn't come from east" but it do not come from your harsh keyboard .
OK , I live in 3rd world country but this topic is not a place for attacking "3rd world country" people. vote trump then go USA army for attacking 3rd world country. :-))  
Uh come one man! take a deep breath! I was just posing my opinions about your opinions (still moronic to me). that's it. Seems you Iranian people are good at getting trigger-happy without batting at eye! Okay okay I confess everything all that nonsense as "micro/macro linearity" is practiced science. take me in to your central booking and shed that famous light on my face and book me but please don't nuke me I don't wanna die I still have works to do! :-) 
BTW I'm not an american and I'm not gonna vote for Trumph but after all your hallucination about US army and attacking other countries was funny as hell to me. 
I'm just outta this BS micro/macro linearity myth. period.



you do not critic my idea , you just call me "moron" , you call me "black sheep" , i do not see any critic in your posts.
i do not care you, over 1000000 people in the world are like you , no problem , i ignore them.
haha




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Amir
Iran
Posts 124
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Post #: 16
Post ID: 22645
Reply to: 22644
Our brain
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think our brain is so complex , the ear and brain structure are very very complex in music processing.
low THD , high Slew rate , ... non of them could make us happy , i know making an theory for understanding relation of musicality with mathematics language of objective domain is not easy.

I try to simplified it with my macro/micro window.



I Love My Mom
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op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
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Post #: 17
Post ID: 22646
Reply to: 22644
It's idiocy that gives men wings... not Redbull
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Amir wrote:
 
you do not critic my idea , you just call me "moron" , you call me "black sheep" , i do not see any critic in your posts.
i do not care you, over 1000000 people in the world are like you , no problem , i ignore them.
haha


I already criticized your ideas but you only keep pointing me to Wikipedia and reminding me your countless of years experience in hi-end audio and your golden era back-then in your no-no-English university blah blah blah...
Hey dude just try to be nice! Just read some English books for God's sake instead of trying to shove your ideas into other's butt. "Black sheep in the herd or group" is an idiom. it's an expression. should not be interpreted literally. It doesn't mean you are a sheep or something! Oh God! please someone pure some gasoline on me to put out my fire! who is this idiot?! I've never ran into an idiot like this. Oh damn. I need to take a leak finito :\ 


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
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oxric
Posts 183
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 18
Post ID: 22647
Reply to: 22645
Language barriers and common courtesies
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Amir wrote:
I think our brain is so complex , the ear and brain structure are very very complex in music processing.
low THD , high Slew rate , ... non of them could make us happy , i know making an theory for understanding relation of musicality with mathematics language of objective domain is not easy.

I try to simplified it with my macro/micro window.

Hi Amir,

Like the other poster, OP. 9, I live in England. I am a bit shocked by the vitriolic tone of some of his comments and his general attitude. I would hate you to think that the fact that you live in Tehran should play such a large part in how people respond to your post(s). Please do not think that it is here considered acceptable to qualify someone's comments as being moronic merely because someone has a very low opinion of these.

Like others I imagine, I find your posts rather difficult to understand/follow because of the language barrier, but then again I sometime misunderstand our host, so I imagine posting and reading on a forum like this one (and others) may help you improve your command of the English language.

I have recently been thinking about the relationship between the sciences and results in audio terms. I know some people who are incredibly bright scientists and have chosen to make audio their career (sounds like an oxymoron/contradiction I know). It does not appear to me that the correlation between scientific ability and audio results is as straightforward as your earlier posts seemed to suggest. 

What's much more interesting is the practice of audio, facing practical problems, having a clear idea of what your objectives are and having some form of strategy of how to address any identified shortcomings. A lot of it is necessarily subjective and what you may perceive as a weakness in your system may be of not great significance to someone else. Against such incredible complexities, and the amounts of subjectivity involved in deciding what works or does not in audio, I guess a focus on micro v macro linearities (whatever they might be) is a distraction from the more intractable problems one faces when putting together a coherent and satisfying system for music reproduction in the home. Likewise denigrating out of hand the big names in the audio industry, fashionable as it might be, gives no guarantee that one is on course to developing such a satisfying system. 

There is no easy route. Obstacles are many. 

But ultimately, music can be potentially a universal language that works across linguistic, geographic and cultural borders and it would be a shame if local prejudices obscure that fact in our interactions with others and make us forget the common courtesies when we deal with someone who does not have our facility with the language. 

All the best
Rakesh
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Amir
Iran
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Post #: 19
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Complex relation
fiogf49gjkf0d
 oxric wrote:
 Amir wrote:
I think our brain is so complex , the ear and brain structure are very very complex in music processing.
low THD , high Slew rate , ... non of them could make us happy , i know making an theory for understanding relation of musicality with mathematics language of objective domain is not easy.

I try to simplified it with my macro/micro window.

Hi Amir,

Like the other poster, OP. 9, I live in England. I am a bit shocked by the vitriolic tone of some of his comments and his general attitude. I would hate you to think that the fact that you live in Tehran should play such a large part in how people respond to your post(s). Please do not think that it is here considered acceptable to qualify someone's comments as being moronic merely because someone has a very low opinion of these.

Like others I imagine, I find your posts rather difficult to understand/follow because of the language barrier, but then again I sometime misunderstand our host, so I imagine posting and reading on a forum like this one (and others) may help you improve your command of the English language.


Rakesh
Thank you for kind words. excuse me for english writing and i  hope to improve my english skills.

 oxric wrote:

I have recently been thinking about the relationship between the sciences and results in audio terms. I know some people who are incredibly bright scientists and have chosen to make audio their career (sounds like an oxymoron/contradiction I know). It does not appear to me that the correlation between scientific ability and audio results is as straightforward as your earlier posts seemed to suggest.


I think you are right about complexity of subject and the relation is more complex than those graphs i show.
the mathematic relation of "good sound" and "objective parameters" of a system (like THD , IMD , ...) is so complex and it is clear that i could not exactly define that relation by mathematic language.
I just try to have some simple idea in my mind about that complex subject. my modeling in both objective and subjective is based on a simple concept: macro and micro .

when I listen to an audio system my reaction to sound change across the time. in short period of time my reaction to sound is related to macro parameters and my reaction to sound in long period of time  is related to micro parameters. macro and micro are my definition to define my reaction to sound in short and long period of time.

for first hours of listening to sound , my mind react to good dynamic bass or wide soundstage or high resolution playback. these subjective parameters like deep tight bass or huge soundstage or microscopic resolution are magazine reviewers tools to run high-end business and force audiophiles in a wrong direction. i call those "Macro Parameters" in subjective reviewing and i really believe these parameters have direct relation by macro objective parameters like THD , ...

Please let me time , I continue this subject and my point of view about your idea.
Thanks again






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Amir
Iran
Posts 124
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Reply to: 22647
Wrong direction
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 oxric wrote:


What's much more interesting is the practice of audio, facing practical problems, having a clear idea of what your objectives are and having some form of strategy of how to address any identified shortcomings. A lot of it is necessarily subjective and what you may perceive as a weakness in your system may be of not great significance to someone else. Against such incredible complexities, and the amounts of subjectivity involved in deciding what works or does not in audio, I guess a focus on micro v macro linearities (whatever they might be) is a distraction from the more intractable problems one faces when putting together a coherent and satisfying system for music reproduction in the home. Likewise denigrating out of hand the big names in the audio industry, fashionable as it might be, gives no guarantee that one is on course to developing such a satisfying system. 

There is no easy route. Obstacles are many. 

But ultimately, music can be potentially a universal language that works across linguistic, geographic and cultural borders and it would be a shame if local prejudices obscure that fact in our interactions with others and make us forget the common courtesies when we deal with someone who does not have our facility with the language. 

All the best
Rakesh


I 100% agree you the only useful and practical tools is "considering our subjective reaction" to the sound but in this topic i try to describe why my reaction to the sound change across the time and what factors in the sound make me happy in long term listening.

when i started audio hobby in 2004 i was in common audiophiles direction: reading stereophile and other internet sources like audiogon reviews and listening to impressive setups in tehran. in those days we spend great effort ,huge listening test,burning money for upgrading systems, but all trial and errors result were minor improvement. my 20years old sony cassette player was so better than over 100k $ systems in tehran.

Sony1.jpg

many audiophiles in tehran had exactly my experience when they start playing hifi. finally i started to think more about this subject and i found  outgoing from wrong circle needs changing our view about audio.

i try to check my reaction to sound and describing what thing in the sound make me to go in right direction.






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