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03-02-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


United Kingdom
Posts 65
Joined on 12-06-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 2150
Reply to: 2150
Sonic consequences of regulation.
Meeeeeowwwwww,

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Among the imperfection I would mention the mains voltage fluctuation. It could be fixed only by regulation with all negative sonic consequences of regulation.


I find this comment most illuminating.

I can now (given that this particular cat will be let out of the bag) cofirm that traditional voltage regulation even with an extra 40db @ 100HZ passive filtering remains audible.

I eventually solved the problem in the most obvious way (sorry, more details will have to wait till after filing the patent apps).

Roman, if you would like to kill the mains side permanently, call me, I am certain we can apply the same tecnology to a  rather large mains conditioner as a one off for you.....

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
03-03-2006 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 2151
Reply to: 2150
Plate regulation: bad idea.
 Thorsten wrote:
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Among the imperfection I would mention the mains voltage fluctuation. It could be fixed only by regulation with all negative sonic consequences of regulation.


I find this comment most illuminating.

I can now (given that this particular cat will be let out of the bag) cofirm that traditional voltage regulation even with an extra 40db @ 100HZ passive filtering remains audible.

I eventually solved the problem in the most obvious way (sorry, more details will have to wait till after filing the patent apps).

Roman, if you would like to kill the mains side permanently, call me, I am certain we can apply the same tecnology to a  rather large mains conditioner as a one off for you.....

T,

OK, a single post slightly off the subject of the thread.

I will defiantly give you a call, although a regular regulator is not what I might consider to use. The minute immediate micro mains voltage fluctuations do not bother nether me nor Melquiades. I more look at the macro fluctuation of voltage for instance: the drifts from 112V to 127V. It is not necessary affect the amp’s sound as it does not change the balance between the channels. It only moves all plate voltages up and down and happens depends of a part of the day/week. The macro fluctuations are not a big deal but if is there a way to eliminate them painlessly then I would like to try. Unfortunately there are many other problems with electricity besides the main’s nominal voltage and to deal with “others problems” is much more complicated. BTW, the Super Milq, because it’s LCRC filtering everywhere and very large value of the last (locally located) capacitors  the amp is less susceptive to bad electricity then any other my equipment.

My old idea to make the Super Milq’s supply “perfect” was to have 1:1 isolating transformer with a secondary having a dozen taps cut by 2-3 volts. Then to have a circuit that would test once in 15-30 min the current voltage and if it varies from a default voltage (for instance 117V) then to activate a no-disconnecting power relay to flip the taps. The problem why I never did it because I never was able to hear any 1:1 transformers that did not affect Sound.  The good way would be to implement this approach in 4 primaries of my plate transformers but it would be too much hassle now…

I definably not a person who has reasons to generalize about the subject but I feel that people generally misuse the entire concept of regulator in tubes. In most of the cases the plate regulation is very bad idea (the screens regulator are different mater). Not to mention that plate regulation was very auditable in any single case I have tried to listen. It always compress sound not mater what I did. Also, it made sound less “granular” and less “distinctive”. I have some good .5A regulators that I tried with 6C33C and they killed sound of 6C33C. For my phonocorrectors and line-stages I also tried tem and the regulators never worked out for me. In past I have a serious guy to help me to design for me an ultra fast regulator with the very specific sonic qualities. I built the dual mono version of it a year or so ago and it “worked” very well. It has LCLCRC filter with 35mA gas reference tube, the 6C19P regulator and 7788 as an amplifier, contented as penthod. Generally it was a standard regulator circuit but it had some things done in there “for sake of sound”.


Still, this regulator does not sound as good as the “direct pipe” and I abandon to use it. I like Sound of non- regulated B+, it has “smell”, “dirt” and “breathing” instead of sterility and the “impressible bass”.  I feel that plates should be fed with more or less stable voltage in order do not move the operation points (for instance 3V on the 7788’s plate in phonocorrector as auditable) but the plate’s supplies should not be regulated in a normal sense. At least it is what I have learned so far based upon what I did.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-03-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 2153
Reply to: 2151
macro regulation - Re: Plate regulation: bad idea.
    A friend of mine has a motor driven variac on his test bench that auto-adjusts for fluctuations in mains voltage....

cheers
cv
03-06-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Genn
Moscow
Posts 16
Joined on 06-28-2005

Post #: 4
Post ID: 2156
Reply to: 2150
Noise of power
 Thorsten wrote:
I can now (given that this particular cat will be let out of the bag) cofirm that traditional voltage regulation even with an extra 40db @ 100HZ passive filtering remains audible.

May be it is time to review some basic concepts?  I'm using today IC based, Accu powered small amplifier, and it reproduces music, without any noise and distorsion from angry power mains.  Yesterday it performed 4th of Brukner with Chelibidache. Remarkable.
03-06-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


United Kingdom
Posts 65
Joined on 12-06-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 2157
Reply to: 2156
Re: Noise of power
Hi,

 Genn wrote:
May be it is time to review some basic concepts?

I am quite familiar with them, thank you.

I'm using today IC based, Accu powered small amplifier, and it reproduces music, without any noise and distorsion from angry power mains.  Yesterday it performed 4th of Brukner with Chelibidake. Remarkable.

Quite possible. But have you made a serious attempt in comparing the amplifier and battery supply replacing the regulators by passive filters?

I/We have done so for both Battery Powered SS Circuits (look up my Analog Addicts Phonostage) and many other mains powered circuits.

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
03-06-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Genn
Moscow
Posts 16
Joined on 06-28-2005

Post #: 6
Post ID: 2158
Reply to: 2157
Re: Noise of mains power

Well, there is always a field for concern regarding the size and internal resistance of the battery.  Relatively small power bateries do make negative impact. 

Another field for concern - musical quality of the mains power in Russia and in other countries.  Here simple PocketPC, disconnected from the power line, and conntected to the main power may sound different. Difference - in the "military emotions".

03-07-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 2164
Reply to: 2158
Re: Noise of mains power
There is a guy here in the UK who is a retailer but who also manufactures loudspeakers called Living Voice. He has several customers in far flung parts of the world where the mains supply is even worse than Boston. With the help of a supplier of such items he has put together a fairly hefty battery powered synthesised mains supply which he used at the recent Bristol HiFi show. I know he's also supplied a couple of larger systems to people in Thailand/Korea and to a couple of customers with boats. The customer in Thailand was running 2 pairs of the big Jadis (JA500's ?) along with the rest of his system and could run them for 8 hours or so before putting the chargers on again. The system still works with the chargers going but doesn't sound quite as good.

If I can find a picture of the smaller installation he used at Bristol I'll post it here. He did say it was the first time he'd done a show and not noticed the variations in mains quality during the weekend.

Guy
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