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01-27-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 1992
Reply to: 1992
Playing music for visitors.

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During the course of the last few years I’m developing a distaste to play music for my visitors.

I remember in past it was, if not fascinating, but I would say intriguing to have a person over and to spend a few hours to play music for him or very rarely for her (actually “her” happened only twice). It was in a way fascinating to see how deferent people react to different music or how difference audio minded people react to the different results of sound reproduction. I used sometime my playback as an experimental playground to try some different things on my visitors and it was fun, well, soft of fun… (One of the mast remarkable episodes was when I played an LP to some like of Audiogon hoodlum and he did not get after listening the entire cut my TT played 45RPM instead of 33RPM, hey - what do you know – the guy loved the sound!!!)

Then I begin to develop a sense of incredible boredom when I played my hi-fi for my visitors. The visitors never brought any music with them that I would consider worth to listen and even if they did then the visitors very fast refused to listen their material and asked me for my music. So, I played mine. However, “my music”, in context of audio visitors, always has a strange dual meaning.

There is “my music” that I might play for the people who visit me.  It is not necessarily the hi-hi-affective music (well, yes it is in a way) but good music that, because of the multiple composite reasons, should be liked by the people, including the satisfying their audio objectives. Still, I never listen those recording when I am do my own private listening. Then, there is the real “my music”, or the music that I pull out of my shelf for myself when I am home alone. It hard to explain what kind music it is. It is nothing spacial but it is something the interests me.

He is the catch: it is practically imposable to play this “private music” for my visitors. It is not that they do not like it but even if they do like it, then they do it because of the different reasons. I tried again and again to inject into the sequence of the typical “demo” music that I play for my visitors, one or two selections from my “private music stock”. The visitors bypass it or they “like it” but always the very different reasons then I do.

Defiantly we all different and we all appreciate the different things in musicality. However, it is my home, my playback and my spent time…. Still, I do not mind to play mystic to the people who visit me but while I do it I feel very-very bored. Furthermore, I know that there are some methods and some techniques that make my playback to have some “reproductive bias” towards “my music” and turn it’s back to “not my music”.  So, for a while I keep tailoring my system to what I need and what would benefit “my music” instead of what make my playback “generally better”….

The biggest satisfaction and the biggest gratification I ever experienced from my playback (in context of my visitors) were those very seldom moments what visitors were people with great audio intelligence and with great music understanding. It was literally few times ever but it was phenomenal! You have a person which whom you could discuss some abstract deep moments of AUDIO INTERPRETATION OF MUSICAL INTENTIONS and juts for sake of illustration you pull a record from your shelf. Suddenly you recognize the person’s complied understanding (without explanations) of WHAT you are demonstrating by playing this given performance. Furthermore, the person, embracing the demonstrated conception, begin to develop the concept further on, basing his thoughts upon the musical fragments that will be yet playing in a few minutes within this performance. With those types of visitors it is possible do not even listen music but to name the specific aspects of playback and the specific performance…. Still, listening with them, is like a reading each other novels, where the affords of the playbacks and the forces of the interpretations open the doors for mutual and self exploration of who we are…

Unfortunately, the intelligent visitors are extremely infrequent and whoever I accustom to have along are just  the “sound catchers”… I appreciate my audio only when I am alone and I do not think that serious audio might be a social involvement. The serious high-end is really a mater of a private relationship between a person and his perception via the opportunities music offers for us. Could the “intruders” share it?

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 2307
Reply to: 1992
Music for visitors: my “ridicules sound”.

The more I think about reproduced sound the more disassociated I find myself with the mainstream audio people. Really, I do not share may of their objective and what in mass audio hysteria is considered essential and prominent does not impress me, furthermore it is very frequency creates a reaction of revolution.

After writing the article above I was thinking if any explanations exist why the high quietly recordings do not impress me. Partially I expressed it in the end of the article about the Bruckner Ninth:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?postID=2290

but there is more to it.

I know and own everything that the audio people consider impressive and very-very well recorded. However even if it is very well performed, superbly recorded and pressed then I still find if boring. I feel music should not be well ILLUSTRATED but rather Music should be IMPLIED. That is why I do not appreciate when sound acts as a very high resolution painting with superb details, painted by a microscopic brash by a very skilled painter. I would rather prefer a painter have a lot of attitude and paint his INTENTIONS with a very large brash, setting his/her references to own objectives. As soon this “large brash painter” begins to enter the world of sonic micro management then I loose my own reference to the “super task “ (courtesy to Stanislavsky) and my awareness begin instead of the "active listening" to participate in the “artificially entertained boredom”

So, what would manifest “my ridicules sound” and witch sound I consider an absolute reference in trims of quality sound reproduction? To surprise many people I would state that the absolute best sound in high-end I consider a Sound in a car coming form a very primitive stock playback system, playing recordings from 1940s.

The second part of 1940s is my absolutely the best recording time and the Sound that was available at that time from my point of view is so much superior then all of the Reference Recordings, Mercurys,  Special RCAs or Unicorns that it is self-explainable why I find many high-end recordings superbly boring.

What I play in my listening room  when I have no “gests”, when  I would like to hear the Real Sound and when I would like to starch the capacity of high-end sound redaction?. I play Boston Symphony recordings from 1945 to 1949. Could anything remotely top that “Iceland of Dead” from 10 April 1945? I play Falstaff Symphonic Study by Elgar and London Symphony from 1931.  I do not try to strike the readers with some kind of “strangeness” but I do find THAT sound really more meaningful, richer and more musical then many so-called high-resolution recording of the latest orchestra.

I'm very much NOT the person who believes in devolution of performing art. I'm familiar and own hundreds or perhaps  thousands  of phenomenal performances of the fairly contemporary artists. All I am taking about Sound Reproductions and I do feel that with all contemporary gismos and contemporary evolved options we did lost something in high-end audio Sound…..

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 3
Post ID: 8732
Reply to: 2307
Truth (and lies) in audio
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy wrote :

"...I feel music should not be well ILLUSTRATED but rather Music should be IMPLIED..."

"...That is why I do not appreciate when sound acts as a very high resolution painting with superb details, painted by a microscopic brush by a very skilled painter. I would rather prefer a painter have a lot of attitude and paint his INTENTIONS with a very large brush, setting his/her references to own objectives..."


Marc Chagall (aka : מאַרק שאַגאַל , Марк Захаравiч Шагал)
(A 20th century Jewish/Belarus-born painter, who moved to Paris) wrote :
"...One cannot be precise, and still be true..."

John Updike wrote :
"...Truth should not be forced, it should simply manifest itself..."

Emily Dickenson wrote :
"...The truth must dazzle gradually/Or every man be blind..."

And, with regard to the concept of "Abstract Audio"...

Vincent Van Gogh wrote :
"...My great longing is to make those very incorrectnesses, those deviations, remodellings, changes in reality, so that they may become, yes, lies if you like - but lies more true than the literal truth..."

Pablo Picasso later appropriated the above concept for himself (what a surprise!), reducing it to the following comparatively crude jingle :
"...Art is a lie that tells the truth..."

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 8735
Reply to: 8732
I do not think that it is about Truth or Lies
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Marc Chagall (aka : מאַרק שאַגאַל , Марк Захаравiч Шагал)
(A 20th century Jewish/Belarus-born painter, who moved to Paris) wrote :
"...One cannot be precise, and still be true..."

John Updike wrote :
"...Truth should not be forced, it should simply manifest itself..."

Emily Dickenson wrote :
"...The truth must dazzle gradually/Or every man be blind..."

And, with regard to the concept of "Abstract Audio"...

Vincent Van Gogh wrote :
"...My great longing is to make those very incorrectnesses, those deviations, remodellings, changes in reality, so that they may become, yes, lies if you like - but lies more true than the literal truth..."

Pablo Picasso later appropriated the above concept for himself (what a surprise!), reducing it to the following comparatively crude jingle :
"...Art is a lie that tells the truth..."

The Truth or False categories exist only in world of well defined coordinate systems and certainty of evolutions. In music the rules are different.  Glenn Gould considered composers, musicians and listeners as one homogeneous melt of consciousness that deal with musicality (it is not HOW he said it but it is the way how I interpret it as I agree with him). If so, then “expressed” in audio/music is not something that is precisely named or identified but rather something that might be EMBRACED by the rest fraction of the “homogeneous melt of consciousness”. The question might be: what is “embraceable”? This is VERY interesting question. Since we talk about audio then we most likely talk about listeners and the “embraceable” for listeners is not something that is Truth or Lies.  The “embraceable” is like feeding a Cat. She eats whatever she want but what she wants is defined but the naturally of her experiences. She does not understand rational but she knows how to correlate chewing with pressure. The very same is with music. Musically is in away an abstract decoding of expressed sensations about world.

Would it be different if the sensations were expressed by more common communication protocol – language for instance, in dry prose? Sure it will be more “true” but it gives a very little room for listener to exercise the “freedom of embracing” and “succession”. One of my ideas of “audio listening techniques” implies a familiarity with the price up to the point of re-composition of the program. How much Truth or Lies in the “re-composable listening”? How much “expressed precision” in artistic expressivity where you have a sense of ownership?  Sure, it is all implied but for a person who talks the expressed implications ARE the passed ideas. All the rest is juts rendering of the implications into a social framework of understanding or appreciation – the framework that has more to do with the ego of speaker then with the value of the ideas itself…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 8753
Reply to: 8735
Yes, precisely!
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy wrote (in blue) :

"...The Truth or False categories exist only in world of well defined coordinate systems and certainty of evolutions. In music the rules are different..."


In the visual arts the rules are also "different".

Taking first the quote from Marc Chagall :
"...One cannot be precise, and still be true..."

For the purposes of this discussion, I make no distinction between music and the visual arts, in that both (and indeed all art) depict life. It seems you would agree :

"...Musically is in a way an abstract decoding of expressed sensations about world..."

Fidelity in the expression of something so enigmatic as life, (the world, life or something that is living, all of which are in evolution, not stable, not fixed), can only be achieved via imprecise terms - those which allow for interpretation. To faithfully depict life, the depiction itself must live.

And if this is not the case...

"...Would it be different if the sensations were expressed by more common communication protocol – language for instance, in dry prose? Sure it will be more “true” but it gives a very little room for listener to exercise the “freedom of embracing” and “succession”..."

Here we have what is know as an illustration. Illustration is well suited to the brain-dead world of "communications", where, in the interest of passing a precise message, all interpretation is done in advance; the message is pre-chewed and spoon-fed. (The single most devastating insult one might level against an artist is to label him/her an "illustrator").

"...All the rest is juts rendering of the implications into a social framework of understanding or appreciation – the framework that has more to do with the ego of speaker then with the value of the ideas itself…"

This (above) is the sonic equivalent to an illustration.

Take now the Van Gogh quote :
"...My great longing is to make those very incorrectnesses, those deviations, remodellings, changes in reality, so that they may become, yes, lies if you like - but lies more true than the literal truth..."

These "incorrectnesses", "devaitions", "remodellings" and "changes in reality" are forms of imprecission, called upon to serve a fidelity of expression (The Picasso version of this concept is suitable for the wall of the toilette at the Leo Bernette headquarters building!).

"...Glenn Gould considered composers, musicians and listeners as one homogeneous melt of consciousness that deal with musicality (it is not HOW he said it but it is the way how I interpret it as I agree with him). If so, then “expressed” in audio/music is not something that is precisely named or identified but rather something that might be EMBRACED by the rest fraction of the “homogeneous melt of consciousness...”

Yes, embraced on all levels, including the subconscious.

"...The “embraceable” is like feeding a Cat. She eats whatever she want but what she wants is defined but the naturally of her experiences. She does not understand rational but she knows how to correlate chewing with pressure. The very same is with music..."

When things are good (mind clear, etc), actively listening to music, giving my attention to music and nothing else, will result in a mental voyage through space and time that is every bit as engaging as the best film. These voyages are entirely improvised, no thinking involved, just reactions to my interpretation of the music. I'm curious, does this happen to others?

"...One of my ideas of “audio listening techniques” implies a familiarity with the price up to the point of re-composition of the program..."

Ever wake from sleep completely convinced that you've composed the beginning of a great piece of music? Capturing it later on the keyboard will in my case usually reveal its origin.

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
11-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 8754
Reply to: 8753
A sneak preview from under the curtain
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
When things are good (mind clear, etc), actively listening to music, giving my attention to music and nothing else, will result in a mental voyage through space and time that is every bit as engaging as the best film….
There is an interning moment in this. I agree with the preface “when things are good (mind clear, etc)”, let call it “Clear Mind State” of CMS. However, could those things that might or might not be good be “modulated” by means of playback itself? This is a bit more complex, stay with me. If sound heard and the listener’s reaction to sound is a derivative of CMS then can the CMS has own set of properties that might be manipulated in order to set the most favorable CMS for listening? Furthermore, can the management of the CMS properties be synchronized or blinded with the context of sonic material that playback plays. It is like applying paint you need on some case to pre-treat the surface with primer paint and the final pain would have better adhesion. If you understand the concept then you might understand what Macondo 7th Channel (about which I was talking before) will be all about. I do not claim that it will certainly will work as I illustrated but it most likely will take the notion much further in the described direction than anything else have seen in the field ever before. I will not comment in more details at this point about the coming Macondo 7th Channel.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 7
Post ID: 8755
Reply to: 8754
Trippin' out
fiogf49gjkf0d
"...Furthermore, can the management of the CMS (clear mind state) properties be synchronized or blinded with (bound to?) the context of sonic material that playback plays..."

I chose to remain vague in my previous post (not specifying if the music was recorded or live), but now that you ask...

I am certain that the depth of such an experience (see end of my previous post) is very dependant on the system+room; whether something in the system can bring about a more crystalline state of mind, I don't know, but I have seen more than one unfocused individual (of the sort who navigate in conversation with extreme inefficiency, jumping from subject to unrelated subject) become completely transfixed while listening. In fact I myself only became conscious of this concept of a sort of voyage as a result of the comments of one such individual; prior to that, it was just something that happened while listening... I did not try to name it.

If what we are talking about is a voyage through time and space, it would follow that a system better capable of conveying these two dimensions might promote a sort of free navigation.

I will be very curious to see how this 7th channel manifests itself. Last weekend, rather than starting work on the mid-bass horn, I tried an experiment having as a goal, to make the qualities of time and space more present and navigable in sound reproduction; I didn't like the result, and stopped the test. Later I realized that I had been evaluating the results with two of the horns disconnected, so I will need to do it again.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
11-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 8756
Reply to: 8755
The Sonic Monosodium Glutamate
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I am certain that the depth of such an experience .. is very dependant on the system+room; whether something in the system can bring about a more crystalline state of mind…

I will be very curious to see how this 7th channel manifests itself…
Sure it is depends upon many parameters, including the system+room but it also depend from certain psycho -biological sub-context that the 7th Channel try to deal with. It is like you very much like lobsters for instance but then you pick some kind of stomach virus and develop a temporary anti-carving for lobsters. At a sub-lever those sudden anti-carving or indifference for lobsters might be recognizes as some chemical combination change in some kind of secretive particle of brain of somewhere else. Now pretend that somehow we got a handle over the chemicals and can deliberately inject the micro-dosages of carving/anti-carving chemicals. Moreover, we can do it dynamically in direct accordance with type of the food exposed to a person. Pretend it as a “perception remote control”. In sound reproduction with the Macondo 7th Channel it will not work as I described but it will use deferent, non-injection principles. I am not convinced at this point that it will all work as I hope but the direction is taken and the means to get there sound very promising. I do not have the 7th Channel implemented but the people who whom I collaborate demonstrate some quietuses that I found very encouraging.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 9
Post ID: 8758
Reply to: 8756
Separation Anxiety
fiogf49gjkf0d
For several years, while we were very involved with the local arts, Sarah and I entertained quite regularly.  During those gatherings, I liked to carefully choose the music and gradually turn it up until it became an integral part of the soiree.  As a rule, Sarah would have no trouble with this, unless/until she finally became conscious of the sound, per se, at which point she would angrily demand that I "turn it down!"  But up to that point of "separation", there were no problems, either for/from Sarah or the guests.

Likewise, I have had my best musical fixes while I was floating in that Precarious Bubble that joins Moi, Great Sound and Great Music.  This condition has been met in many different ways, under many different conditions, from mind-altered dorm room portable, to half-drunk, half-asleep automobile FM and CD, to fully alert, fully prepared, Righteous Big System Fix in my listening room via what is without a doubt the best "system" I have assembled for the purpose to date.  No question in my mind that the Big Fix is a matter of perception and that the perception is a sense of Oneness with The Sound of Music.

The repeated/repeatable experience/vindication of this observation/belief has been my own Philosophers' Stone.  And like any addict, I suppose I am more motivated by expectation than by fufillment.

I am presently playing it pretty straight in terms of sonic "fidelity", and I ahve been taking my lumps, big time, because the damn thing won't work predictably when the electricity is bad, which it so often is.  I don't know what it would be worth to me to have a system I could just switch on and sit down with for a Guaranteed Big Fix, but I am so skeptical of hi-fi at this point that I really don't even take this idea seriously anymore.  Rather, I just gladly take what I can get, when I can get it.

More troubling is the thought that my ideas still swirl around efficiency and frequency extension, as though I can simply go Forward without sacrificing/losing Everything that Matters.  Clearly, one tenet to think about is playing music for onesself instead of for others, since they are no certain gauge of The Fix in The End.

Paul S
11-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 10
Post ID: 8759
Reply to: 8756
One pill makes you larger...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

Now I'm very curious.
Could a mechanical prop be added to Macondo in order to stimulate a particular state of mind, like a certain spice would increase salivation?
Could this be a universal spice or would it only work with a given individual or a group with well defined characteristics?
I must confess that I am craving for the further developments on your "Neuroscience" project...

Best,
Tuga


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
11-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 8760
Reply to: 8759
It is not really Neuroscience but just plain audio.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 tuga wrote:
Romy, Now I'm very curious. Could a mechanical prop be added to Macondo in order to stimulate a particular state of mind, like a certain spice would increase salivation? Could this be a universal spice or would it only work with a given individual or a group with well defined characteristics? I must confess that I am craving for the further developments on your "Neuroscience" project...
Sorry, folks I got cared away from the subject of the thread. When Macondo’s 7th Channel implemented and demonstrate tangible results worth commenting upon I will be talking about it more. I anticipate that the 7th Channel will be done somewhere with a month or two. The Macondo’s 7th Channel is under construction for the last 6 months by a gentleman who has experience in the field, not by me. When it will be through the concept will be exposed to further scrutiny. BTW, before the Macondo’s 7th Channel it most likely will be on other interesting projects rendered...

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-19-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 20470
Reply to: 1992
...and sometimes it might be so deferent....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, sometimes it is.  Two days ago an audio guy came from Uk. He arrived at midnight and we had a listening session up to 5:30 am ( I was flying to Mexico on morning). Despite the at was "inconvenient" session for all intended purposes but I have no unpleasant memories about it.  A quality of the visiting person does matters!


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  High End Audio and musical content...  Design decisions for different music....  Playback Listening  Forum     8  49023  06-01-2006
  »  New  The most appalling audio types...  The most appalling audio types: personally over-vested...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  86935  06-15-2007
  »  New  The “Implied Sound” in Audio...  The recording ART?...  Playback Listening  Forum     24  100568  07-24-2008
  »  New  About the Playbacks’ Thinkability...  The right stuff...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  28611  01-30-2009
  »  New  What I am doing?..  What am I (Axel) doing?...  Playback Listening  Forum     15  68250  05-12-2009
  »  New  Curiosity about others. Getting older I guess…..  Free association...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  23233  12-20-2009
  »  New  The most emblematic recording?..  The most emblematic recording?...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  6874  04-23-2011
  »  New  About Timbre and Audio...  Timbers in audio...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  25518  05-03-2011
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