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04-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 18106
Reply to: 18106
Tubas and Mc-step
fiogf49gjkf0d
Try as I might, I can't get my sme3012/shelter 901 combo to do tubas . My ortofon309/vintage mono cartridge does it magnificently the tuba down low makes me goosevumps all over just likenthe cello. I think my stepup for shelter is incorrect choice, the mono feeds directly into phono amp. I have no interest to audition Mc stepup devices, can someone other than romy just tell me what to buy to work with the shelter? I sau orher than romynas i know what he has and i can't find it/afford it.



04-29-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 135
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 2
Post ID: 18107
Reply to: 18106
Problem
fiogf49gjkf0d

I think it might be your cable elevators that are the problem, I am sure Romy can give us a good recomendation of which cable elevators we can buy to get a better sound!  ;-)

04-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,345
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 18108
Reply to: 18106
The “special goosevumps”
fiogf49gjkf0d
 RonyWeissman wrote:
Try as I might, I can't get my sme3012/shelter 901 combo to do tubas . My ortofon309/vintage mono cartridge does it magnificently the tuba down low makes me goosevumps all over just likenthe cello. I think my stepup for shelter is incorrect choice, the mono feeds directly into phono amp. I have no interest to audition Mc stepup devices, can someone other than romy just tell me what to buy to work with the shelter? I sau orher than romynas i know what he has and i can't find it/afford it.
Rony,

This is an interesting question, let me understand what you are asking. Your run Ortofon 309 arm with some kind of vintage mono cartridge. Is it Ortofon SPU vintage or some other mono cartridge?  Does this mono cartridge has high voltage out and run directly to your MM phonostage? You claim that your 3012/901 is not able to deliver the same mid/upperbass performance playing the same record/s. Can you describe something other than “goosevumps”, “do tubas” and “likenthe cello” what exactly dissatisfy you in the sound you get from your 3012/901?  Also, what solution you use to run your 2.5mV 901 needle to your MM phonostage?

Generally, 3012/901 combo with an equitably-good MC level amplification/transformation shall be able to do everything very good. There is however a room for “special goosevumps” that migh come from some vintage mono cartridge. You run Ortofon 309 that is very good arm and some of vintage cartridges (specifically SPU) can deliver some very idiosyncratic midbass glow that no contemporary Shelter would do, particularly on some of the record from 50s.  That is exactly why some people run multiple arm with different type of cartridges mounted on them. So, I wonder if you are trying to address something the does not need to be addressed.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 18109
Reply to: 18108
Goosebumps explained
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,
Well maybe it is that the answer.  My mono is pierre clement eb 25 broadcast cartridge, the original not the contemporary remake. The output is extremely high, almost overwhelming my phono amp I have the impression. Also, it tracks very heavy, maybe it is the heavy tracking that plays a role as well?
The shelter is hooked-up to a custom mc step-up made for it by la maison de l'audiophile in paris. He made his own transformers and i do nor know how many turns it is though. The unit is generally very good.
What is the problem ? Listening to the, for example, rca victor red-seal  recordings of CSO /Reiner I hear midbass weight, presence and realism that I do not have with the shelter. It is not the pushing forward or highlighting of midbass like the denon 103 can do with midrange, it is the instruments in their place in the orchestra which somehow fits into my living room.  The tone of the instrument is the entire spectrum, not a particular aspact which is highlighted, and the overall presentation is much "lower" overall.  It makes me understand why someone would spend all his life trying to,play the damn instrument.
So if it is the case that it is what it is I will put my banl card back into the wallet and save up for DIY amps srill.
R weissman
04-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,345
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 18110
Reply to: 18109
Sometime goosevumps are not only goosevumps
fiogf49gjkf0d

 RonyWeissman wrote:
What is the problem ? Listening to the, for example, rca victor red-seal  recordings of CSO /Reiner I hear midbass weight, presence and realism that I do not have with the shelter. It is not the pushing forward or highlighting of midbass like the denon 103 can do with midrange, it is the instruments in their place in the orchestra which somehow fits into my living room.  The tone of the instrument is the entire spectrum, not a particular aspact which is highlighted, and the overall presentation is much "lower" overall.

Well, I am not familiar with character of Pierre Clement cartridges at all, if would be difficult to say anything certainly but I would like to outline a few factors that you might consider.

1)  Your Pierre Clement cartridges might have the “presentation lower overall” with richer harmonics. Some of cartridges do and particularly vintage.

2)  Your shelter might be loaded to too high impedance. I never use the recommended 47K load and I think I use either 23K or 32K.

3)  You might have a bad step up transformer. This is most likely as most of the transformers out there are very bad. Try to borrow a full-gain phonostage with no transformer and to see if you have the same result. Alternatively you might try to by $19.95 chip toy phonostage, or any consumer phonostage in some kind of receiver or even digital phonostage and they them. Do not worry you do not need to get any good quality from them – you need juts to see if that “presentation lower overall” state will change if you get rid the transformer.

4)  Your Pierre Clement, being vintage is most likely has big ass conical or elliptical needle that is very good for old pressing records. Shelter is contemporary 8-grains shape, a complex shape that is too complex at time at some pressings.

5)  My experience indicates that the thrilling density in mid and upperbass that you are looking for shall not come from cartridge but from acoustic system. Take a commercial CD of the same perfume and play it in your digital playback. Generally the Reiner CDs are well balanced. You shall have all together identical sound from LP and CD, at least in terms of overall balance.

6) Do not forget your cable from cartridge to your step-up. This is the most important cable in your entire setup. If you cable is 1M and your step-up is 1:25 then the little coil of your cartridge driver 25M of cable.

Generally, from what I have seen the vintage cartridges are hugely not-neutral. You can but some kind crazy expansive SP from 50 off eBay and you can get not goosevumps but you will have new penises begin to grow on your back. It will be phenomenally exciting but only on a few recordings. If you play more recording with your new super special cartridge then you will recognize with time that the cartridges has the same character of sound everywhere and it will annoy you, it will. You will eventually return to all together neutral performing cartridges and will try to get your goosevumps from that  Reiner  by other, not natural means. Why do you think the people like me have multiple arms and play some of the arms very rare and only in very deliberate cases?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 18114
Reply to: 18110
Cartridge equalizarion
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok Romy thanks for advice.  I will see about the loading for my shelter, and my cable to the step-up is nothing special. I am going to listen to mono only for next few weeks and see if i find the "same character of sound everywhere" syndrome!  
I do have a phono stage with mm/mc switch, so i will see what shelter does without the maybe bad step-up.  I would like my shelter to do,the "lower" presentation of my mono cartridge. Today listening to hans hotter with the mono and I do not feel the need to change anything in my playback. The mono does have a better cable than the shelter, so maybe that is more important than i thought. I can't just switch the two as din/rca issues.
Well i am now listening too beethoven 3rd szell cleveland orch and the sound is very much like the chicago symphony I listened to yesterday so maybe yes houston we have a problem!
R weissman
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