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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 1
Post ID: 16314
Reply to: 16314
Munich High End 2011
fiogf49gjkf0d
I've just got back home from there.
Here is the concert hall where the Munich PhO performs.






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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 16315
Reply to: 16314
Closed loop
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thales tonearm tracing an infinite groove.
 



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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 16316
Reply to: 16315
AudioTekne
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'Gunmetal' turntable, arm and MC-cartridge by Imai-san (Audio Tekne).




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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 16317
Reply to: 16316
Silbatone
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Silbatone used a WE horn to play in mono and a pair of their own horn cabinets for 2-channel.The very cinema sound reinforcement looking horn was, I was told, a 16B. I will post some comments about the sound a bit later.




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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 16318
Reply to: 16315
Thales tonearm tracing an infinite groove.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Serge wrote:
Thales tonearm tracing an infinite groove.
 

Interesting is that although this demonstration look very “impressive” but in my view there is absolutely no value in this demonstration. Absolutely any TT/ tonearm would do the same the question is hot one tonearm does it differently then another tonearm in context of the same cartridges. So, Thales want to demonstrate anything then they need to show the anti-skating measurements for their tonearm while it does those crazy actions shit and compare it with other tonearm. I would like to not that the fact that Thales tonearm would (or would not) be easier doing in horizontal plane says absolutely nothing about qulety of tonearm sound. It is all about the lateral mass of inertia and match of lateral compliance to the cartridge cantilever (something that no one even talks). So, the whole demo that Thales put on I find irrelevant. If you want relevancy then get old Nakamichi TT that was peaty much designed to play those types of the records and that will give no errors to play it. So, the Nakamichi TT sounded not good but I am sure it will give an effective demo.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 16319
Reply to: 16317
Silbatone or G.I.P?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am a bit missing. Those speakers are Silbatone or G.I.P?

The anointment that I head was these speakers are made by G.I.P

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=16210

The G.I.P is known as driver maker, not the entire speaker maker. Silbatone would be the more appropriate company to do it, perhaps they used G.I.P drivers, or G.I.P made the speaker and gave to Silbatone to market it under own name. It is not know…

Regardless, I do feel that his new Silbatone/G.I.P speaker is a remarkable move. It is much more interesting then the garbage with Magner driver that Silbatone did a couple years back. I hope their whore Joe Roberts did stick those old speaker with Silbatone drivers in his own ass – that is exactly the place they shall rest.

I would discard the Silbatone preoccupation with WE. They want to drag them from show to show – it is fine, they very soon get tired from it. From audio advisement perspective this WE fixation is kindergartenish. The new speaker however is very notable and I am very glad for Silbatone for THIS move.

Any information about price, drivers (will G.I.P be required), construction material and option that we will see the thing in US? Will flexibility of the drivers be allowed? Would the speaker be available as “kit version as” it was with many speakers in 50s? Silbatone and G.I.P never spoke. They have the Joe Roberts run his boneless mouth for them. Would it be possible to have Silbatone and G.I.P flaks to be interview in context of their new speaker? Srajan Ebaen, if you read it, you love to have manufacture-page ride to you and your escort to exotic places – care to have a ride to Korea to interview Silbatone? I understand that you will ask question with no more intelligence than Sarah Palin would do but it is better then hearing nothing from Silbatone. Also, last few years you have learn that you sound like an idiot when you open you mouth in your articles and you let the interviewed person to talk. So, it might be an interesting article to read….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 16320
Reply to: 16314
Now for some photos
fiogf49gjkf0d




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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
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Post #: 8
Post ID: 16321
Reply to: 16320
More Silbatone
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Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 9
Post ID: 16322
Reply to: 16321
Blumenhofer Acoustics
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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
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Post #: 10
Post ID: 16323
Reply to: 16322
Audiotekne horns
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ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 11
Post ID: 16324
Reply to: 16319
Silbaone info
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear Romy,
The price is 167,000 Euro I was told. The material they used for bass cabinet at least looked like MDF. Sound was much better than any 
speaker I've heard in show, expect Cessaro which was wonderful. BTW Marten, Kharma, Focal, Magico and some other porcelain driver speakers could happily compete for worst sound in the show.
Regards,
Armen
05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 16325
Reply to: 16324
In such case Silbaone is outclassed.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 ArmAlex wrote:
The price is 167,000 Euro I was told. The material they used for bass cabinet at least looked like MDF. Sound was much better than any speaker I've heard in show, expect Cessaro which was wonderful. BTW Marten, Kharma, Focal, Magico and some other porcelain driver speakers could happily compete for worst sound in the show.

The 167K Euro makes 235K USD. For this money Silbaone topology is well outclassed.  Entire Macondo is 30K-40K level acoustic system. Silbaone new speaker is topologically 3-4 levels less complex and expensive. The price tag of 20K would make it the most popular design, the price tag of $235K will make it to join the army of expensive speakers that no one buys.

It is not the fact that they expensive but they are expensive for the result they offer. The last Silbaone is VERY simple (and very effective for being a package) design and there is nothing in there to be expensive. With the set of JBL/Altec set of drivers it has to be very inexpensive. Silbaone might push the G.I.P driver in the Silbaone and G.I.P might change 30-50K for some WE replica. Still, somebody Armen reports that Cessaro with $2K TAD driver were compatible to Silbaone… so what the purpose to pay more than $700 for a pair of JBL 2440?

Anyhow, I do not make any assumption how the new Silbaone sound but the price that they decided to go out is very disappointing.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 76
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #: 13
Post ID: 16326
Reply to: 16323
Audiotekne Bass Module impressions?
fiogf49gjkf0d


Thanks for sharing these images Serge.
I would like to learn more about the Audiotekne bass solution.
What size driver is that, is it a sealed cabinet, what is the baffle,
and what frequency range is demanded from this box?
How was the sound?


The 50 to 200Hz range is still a huge challenge, and for many (me for sure)
a large horn like Romy's just not physically possible.  The balance between
robust dynamics and sweet sound blending into the midrange is delicate and difficult.


Mats



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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,143
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 14
Post ID: 16327
Reply to: 16326
The Sound of the Box
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mats, I must have missed something.  What do you see in the Audiotekne photo that you ask after the bass box?  My usual ADHD glance only took in a double-wall-with-double-cutouts front baffle(s), and the (small-ish) size of it; maybe some sort of BR variant?  Anyway, it did appear to me that the sound of the enclosure would figure strongly in the final sound, here, if that would matter.  OTOH, there are a few 18" or even 15" drivers that can do 50 Hz strongly enough to make getting rid of enclosure sound another thing to think about.  Of course, beyond that, there is Tone...  and (like you said), blending...


Best regards,
Paul S
05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 15
Post ID: 16331
Reply to: 16327
Audiotekne
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well I have some literature from the Show and about the Audio Tekne speaker I can say that:
- it has an outboard crossover, which I guess is passive and uses a lot of transformers
- woofer diameter is 380 mm



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ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 16
Post ID: 16332
Reply to: 16325
Silbatone vs. Cessaro
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote
Still, somebody Armen reports that Cessaro with $2K TAD driver were compatible to Silbaone… so what the purpose to pay more than $700 for a pair of JBL 2440?


I must say sound of Cessaro was far more sofisticated than Silbatone, but it was very expensive too(250,000 Euro).

Armen
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Serge


Russia
Posts 51
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Post #: 17
Post ID: 16333
Reply to: 16331
Sound at the Show
fiogf49gjkf0d

Needless to say the sonic impressions I am getting at the shows may be deceptive and always are very preliminary: that's the nature of an event like that. Who knows what's happening in the mains while I am listening, may be the AC power just got a crapload of some digital sucker in the next room or whatever.

Anyway I heard what I heard and I am sure that was like that. May be next 5 minutes will bring radical difference. Or may be not.

The SIlbatone room was very large. They played an Edith Piaf record on a mono WE16B (or A, not sure). They played it very loud which I don't like, ever. I felt the system was made to show dynamics and it did it. The dynamic range was really undistorted and huge. But I've got the feeling that there was no power or body behind the jumps and dives of pure SPL if you see what I mean. I'd say a touch of pneumatic sound was there - no real drive behind the notes. It was not bad though since the music was coherent but lacking substance a bit - both tonally and artistically.

Then they put on stereo with their horns and the sound was in many ways similar to original WE. Of course it had much more extension at the top end and the bass was weighty but as an approach to showing me the musical performance it was very much the same. Dynamic but a bit empty.

Swissonor also had a big room but not as large as the SIlbatone's. They do a lot of restoration for classic Thorens turnables and also their own amps and speakers. Very lively sound though distorted and amorphous in the bass. Speakers used a horn-loaded woofer and old-style coaxial mounting of a tweeter.

The sound I like most was the one at Audio Tekne's room. I never listened to them before. The speakers were very ugly. I'd say extremely ugly. And 4-way, drive units arranged as if by chance. The big ugly turntable cost 53000 euro which made me cringe. Later I was told that the speaker cost 300 something 000 euros.

But the sound was decent. The frequency range was limited, there was a hint of some colouration and distortion in the highs but the music performance was meaningful and within-reach as opposed to something distant of which I have no concern.




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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 16334
Reply to: 16333
Thinking about the sound at that show.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Serge wrote:
The SIlbatone room was very large. They played an Edith Piaf record on a mono WE16B (or A, not sure). They played it very loud which I don't like, ever. I felt the system was made to show dynamics and it did it. The dynamic range was really undistorted and huge. But I've got the feeling that there was no power or body behind the jumps and dives of pure SPL if you see what I mean. I'd say a touch of pneumatic sound was there - no real drive behind the notes. It was not bad though since the music was coherent but lacking substance a bit - both tonally and artistically.

I guess the nature of the business dictate to get bigger room and to have more people in there. Funny but at the show manufactures “compete” in the eyes of stupid public opinion by the size of their rooms as a bigger room sends a message that the company does well rand and afford to pay those exuberant fees for larger rooms. Needless to say that the larger room, and particularly the German style with glass, blows in a face of most of audio. The Silbatone own speakers are topologically not truly equipped to deal with larger rooms without retuning. In the past Silbatone I think invited third party consultant to help them to retune crossovers and to fit the speaker to the room acoustically. I do not know if they did recalibration of the speaker for the large room. To a degree the “lacking substance a bit - both tonally and artistically” that you report might derive from some challenges in Fundamentals Channel – something the slides very first in large room, particularly with the speakers where Fundamentals in the melody “range” can’t be individually dial in;  topologically it would be possible only with Cessaro Gamma. There is a catch however. The full bloom of Fundamentals in a large room and in context of full range is very complex. Neither  Silbatones are full range but still going for “full bloom of Fundamentals” would be in a way suicidal and people at the show would not “get” it. It is much more preferable at the show to strip harmonics, subdue Fundamentals and to demo fast and clean “dynamic” sound. I guess this is what Silbatone was doing….

 Serge wrote:
Then they put on stereo with their horns and the sound was in many ways similar to original WE. Of course it had much more extension at the top end and the bass was weighty but as an approach to showing me the musical performance it was very much the same. Dynamic but a bit empty.

I am disappointed with Silbatone own horns. I think that idea was wonderful, the design was superb and with proper mind set they could proper that speaker to very significant popularity. With near ¼ mil dollars price tag they killed the whole idea. It does not take a lot of brain to make an acoustic system expensive, it hake much more wisdom to make it finance-efficient. Altec Lansing sells their Altec A7 for $8K, Silbatone topologically in the very same price category as Altec A7, so why A7 cost $8K but Silbatone $235K? The sonic advantage that Silbatone might have over Altec might exist but it will be still restricted by the topological limitation of the both speakers. The whole point was to have the new Silbatone as I said before for 20K and to have it hugely scalable- people can chose what drivers they want, how much they are willing to pay and what kind sound they are willing to get. The whole great, from my perspective, notion of the new Silbatone design was that it can accommodate absolutely anything. The type of the bass bin that Silbatone use fakes any bass drivers you wish. The MF horn has no limit in length, so put in the 1” or 4” driver – does not mater, juts change the tail of the horn and slide the horn in time-aligned position. For sure setting the price of $235K Silbatone killed all of it. Unfortunatly….

 Serge wrote:
The sound I like most was the one at Audio Tekne's room. I never listened to them before. The speakers were very ugly. I'd say extremely ugly. And 4-way, drive units arranged as if by chance. The big ugly turntable cost 53000 euro which made me cringe. Later I was told that the speaker cost 300 something 000 euros. But the sound was decent. The frequency range was limited, there was a hint of some colouration and distortion in the highs but the music performance was meaningful and within-reach as opposed to something distant of which I have no concern.

Yes, they are extremely ugly but I do like it as a “package”. This super ugly shape with unfinished particles board panels and screws sticking from the speaker work out fine with me. I would be much more annoyed if they have the same ugly speaker with piano-gloss finish. I do not know anything about Audio Tekne and I do not truly understand what they did or where trying to do.

The Cat

A correction: When I was talking about the “shape with unfinished particles board “ I ment the  Blumenhofer Acoustics (pictures above), not the Audio Tekne


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 19
Post ID: 16335
Reply to: 16333
GIP
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, someone named lNHUMANE left this comment at YouTube (he is most probably right):
"That WE16B speaker is set up for stereo, not mono. There are two sets of drivers and two horns with a common mouth.  Of course, stereo did not exist when it was introduced in 1928.
The wood field coil horns are made by G.I.P. Laboratories of Japan."

I can add that they definitely played a mono record over the original WEs.



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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 16336
Reply to: 16333
The Audio Tekne's 4-ways
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Serge wrote:
The sound I like most was the one at Audio Tekne's room. I never listened to them before. The speakers were very ugly. I'd say extremely ugly. And 4-way, drive units arranged as if by chance. The big ugly turntable cost 53000 euro which made me cringe. Later I was told that the speaker cost 300 something 000 euros.

But the sound was decent. The frequency range was limited, there was a hint of some colouration and distortion in the highs but the music performance was meaningful and within-reach as opposed to something distant of which I have no concern.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiotekne.com%2Fproducts_sp-system.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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