| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Adding one more non-spherical to Macondo. (24 posts, 2 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 1 of 2 (24 items) Select Pages:  1 2 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Adding one more spherical to Macondo...  It is about magnet and SS type....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     92  664968  05-23-2006
  »  New  How to paint Multicell horns?..  Hm, it works but I am not thrilled....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  24528  12-09-2010
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1066590  08-03-2007
  »  New  The Evolution of Honk...  Horn-loading and compression had no direct relativity t...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  18132  06-06-2010
  »  New  The Multicells HF Horns...  Construction plans of Altec 1505...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     9  76451  04-22-2005
  »  New  Open cell foam in horns and MF drivers..  Radian replacement for 2482...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     40  261452  01-25-2008
  »  New  Macondo Frame modification...  Parquet...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     46  304667  12-22-2006
  »  New  JBL 2490 mid-range driver..  Any result of your experiments ?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     10  57539  01-01-2011
  »  New  Romy's Multi-cell Horns Where Are They?..  Love The Look...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  11594  08-17-2013
12-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 15201
Reply to: 15201
Adding one more non-spherical to Macondo.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Back to 2006 I had a thread “Adding one more spherical to Macondo.” The thread itself and the concept that it lead to - the Fundamentals Channel - turned to be a phenomenal success. I know, I know for someone it might appear like nothing but if you do run your playback with a dedicated, active Fundamentals Channel and you have option to dial it precisely to the rest of your Sound then you know the power.

My current Fundamentals Channel is 600 to 1000Hz in 250Hz tractrix driver by Vitavox S3 driver with old metal diaphragm. I however would like to run it from 300-400Hz but ether driver or horn did not allow me. So, I always would like to have larger horn, just a bit sub 200Hz and then to find a driver that would support lower crossover point and will furnish the sound quality that I would accept.

I however can’t not go for larger horn as I do not want to minimize clearness for tweeter and Injective channels. I also would like do not use tractrix for my Fundamentals Channel but to go for exponential profile and to drive it harder down. This all lead me to the idea that I need to go for rectangular profile with fixed height and to add opening on the side. The multi-cell architecture was a logical chose.  A regular 15 cell with my targeted height usually do 230Hz but I have unlimited width. So if I find somebody who can curve the thing to 18 or 21 cell then it might do.

I found a guy in England who agreed to do the 15 cell, 183Hz horn with 1.5” throat. The requirements’ were to have them made from soft wood, fill-able with sand and a few other things. The horns are semi-done, sitting in the room and ready to be tested. 

Multicell_Fundamental_1.JPG

I am not diving in this project right now as I would like to wait a bit. I would like to beef up those multicells . I would like to think how I would mount it to the Macondo frame, How to finish them. The most important I would like to see if Macondo will be truly beneficial from this type addition: sonically, visually, ets… I never was multicells fun but Fundamentals Channel does not do any HF, so it might work. I initiated this thread and I will with time to post my observations about the use and accommodation of this new multicell. If everything tune well then I will add to Macondo but I at this point not wind about visual aspect.  The   multicells looks too much like loudspeakers. I might cover the multicells mouth with black caustic fabric or perhaps I will get softer on it after I paint them black…. I do not know, let see what will happen.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 15202
Reply to: 15201
Why multi-cell?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy,

I'm trying to understand your logic in choosing a multi-cell design (instead of a single-cell oval or rectangular 180Hz exponential horn of the same vertical height)... Was this in the interest of achieving a more diffused radiation pattern (less beaming) or possibly a desire to keep horn length short?


jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 15203
Reply to: 15202
My unfortunately-conformistic multi-cell...
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:

Romy,

I'm trying to understand your logic in choosing a multi-cell design (instead of a single-cell oval or rectangular 180Hz exponential horn of the same vertical height)... Was this in the interest of achieving a more diffused radiation pattern (less beaming) or possibly a desire to keep horn length short?

Oh, well. When I begin this think about the larger Fundamental Channel I was thinking about the rectangular 180Hz exponential horn. They I found a site that give me an idea that other options are possible. Ironically the site that gave me the idea was my own. If you look at home page, at the site center image then you might see a cartoonish of multi-cell horn. The fun part that I very much like the sharp curve of this horn and I thought that I will be able to do the same. I was talking with a few horn makers asking them for 21-23 cell horn that will have 160 degree opening. You the problem is that math to circulate the Multi-cell try assure the right curve of the side cell and as I understand it presume HF radiation. To make the long story short - I made 18 cell as I was not able to find anybody who do semi-omni 23-cell. That would be the lower MF only but people apparently do not get the DSET concept applied to horns.

My_ideal_Multi-cell.GIF

Yes. The logic with multi-cell was coming from the fact that they would be shorter as I do not want the Fundamental Channel to be excurted too much further. And yes, wider radiation pattern also was my intention in the new room. The new multi-cell made to have 2” less height then my 250 Tractrix as in the spherical horn there are those chords from top and bottom. My initial idea was to have less cell in center – only one row and 2 extra vertical cells from sides – 22-24 cells, or to have sort of narrow middle with two multi-cell budges on the side. I would not able to find anybody who would go for the implementation such an ambition thing. It would be virtually a combination of 2 18-cell and one vertical rectangular combined together per channel. It is possible to build it but it is VERY difficult (if possible) to curves averting into the same 2” throat. It however might be possible if the condition will care only lower MF.

Here I am with my conformist multi-cell, it is not what I would like to but it is what I have. The idea was that if it does not work for Macondo then I will add it to my Altec 19 project. As I said I am not too pleased with visual aspect of the multi-cell. The whole beauty of the spherical shape is that it natural and it does not look like hardware makes efforts to produce sound.  The multi-cell makes hardware too much trying – I do not like it.  Might be I need to see how it works in black or might be I need to mount the multi-cell in place the  Fundamental Channel after I paint them and to see if the multi-cell will feel right. As now, the multi-cell feels like “it is not from there”….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 15222
Reply to: 15201
Wood and depth
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,  I keep a pair of old RCA 18-cell horns for my S2s in the garage that I hope someday to reintegrate into my system.  I remember loving the violon  tone I could get out those and the sound was coming from WAY back , a depth I have never been able to recreate and added a certain nobleness to the playback, good luck. R Weissman
12-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 15224
Reply to: 15222
The fight for 450Hz…
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hm, this is what I am playing how: the new 18-cell and S3. I run it from a full time Milq and use it with no filter of any kid. Rony is right the depth effect is there, it is not even depth but rather multi-dimensionality. Indeed very pleasant feeling. It reminds me a good mono recording where single monophonic focusing point has a lot of depth and a lot of volume. The upper range is expectedly very bad and I would not use this above I would say 3-4kHz. The lower knee of the driver range is fantastic, superbly clean and this is in a way very bad as it is a clear indication that the horn is too large for the driver. I think S3 drop like stone at 450Hz but I would need something that would do down to 300Hz. I need to think about it. If I run just this horn then I would for sure go for it and would search for a compression driver with 300Hz response and with tone like Vitavox S2/S3 has a lower end. But I am not sure if I need to do it in my case as I have other channels right there, so I need to try find a configuration that more work as embracive summation. So, need to see what my upperbass and other channels do at 450Hz…

Multicell_Fundamental_2.JPG


Multicell_Fundamental_3.JPG

Rony, I heard the RCA 18-cell horn at Oswald’s Mills. It is very difficult to say anything about them as at the Mills there was no Sound but only that constant fear and ridicules pressure of damaged management. Also, the guy who run the system in there is highly intelligent and only God know what kind crossovers he managed to theft at that time and how it all was organized. What I asked him what his playback used he was not able to say anything lucid and what he did he clearly did not understood what he was saying. The lower midrange that was coming from Mill’s RCA 18-cell pleasant but it was flooded that that ridicules midbass horn with a pair of 25Hz 15” drivers. That all produced just a monotonous boom and was horrible. However, what they played Fisher-Dieskau with light piano and music did not have a lot in lower end then it was very pleasant. From what I member and I might be wrong, but the RCA 18-cell are MUCH larger then mu horn, they probably 140Hz or something like this. The Oswald’s dirt I think used some kind of RCA driver that go much lower than typical compression driver and I might be a good choose for that horn. Again, it all depends from what you have above and below. If I was listening that Oswald’s Mill installation with RCA 18-cell then I would probably ask to disconnect the lower end channel and to driver just multi-cell with the MF drivers that they use (it was a small conical). Unfortunately I did not do. Anything, the point of this that if you like your RCA 18-cell then the S2 driver might have too weak low end for that horn size. It looks like it is too weak for my horn.

Reminder, what do not want a horn or a driver to write of your slope – you want a filter to do it. This is one of the very basic self-invented acxioms I use.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,104
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 6
Post ID: 15226
Reply to: 15224
Current Options
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, that horn is so beautiful that I almost do not care about how it sounds!  I actually hopped on the thread in response to the header advertising the desire for 450 Hz. and only after that did I read the Oswald's Mill stuff.  In pasting the link here, I actually mean to re-connect you with the "Hard to Find" Cogent Boys, Steve and Rich.  As I reported years ago, their big driver will absolutely do <450 Hz VERY well, indeed, although I would not vouch for anything above about 800 Hz, according to what I heard.  It did have "horn sound" when I heard it, but I am not sure whether this is a problem for hornys, or if it might in any case be "solved" by another horn or different use.  Again, I mention it because the big Cogent driver is really good in its optimal 1 1/2 - 2 octaves, starting below 450 Hz.

http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/steve.html


Best regards,
Paul S
12-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 15227
Reply to: 15226
"Beautiful” but themselves.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paull, the horns might be “beautiful” but only themselves. When they are jointed with the rest Macondo spherical chennals then I do not like how it all looks together.  Regarding the drivers, I do have a few options, I might slowly exercise them and see how it goes. The Cogent drivers are not really on my list even though they might do 200Hz. I feel the Cogent drivers would be too slow for me and with too little transients. It is known that I never was a big fun of them but it passed 7 years as I heard then – who know what they do nowadays. BTW, juts to drop a few final sketches to the character: the Oswald's Mill dirt who consider himself a “big audio dealer”, as today keep selling his crap to his customers, informing them that I visited him to in order to solicit him to sell Cogent drivers to me at a discount price. I have the actual emails that I can post. The reality is that there was never any conversation between me and Jonathan Weisst about Cogent drivers. We spoke with Steve with whom I was in good relationship with an idea to test-exchange of him driver to my S driver for a few weeks but we never proceed.  The reason I tell all of it that you shall not confuse Cogent boys Steve and Rich with Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill. Steve and Rich produce drivers, like I or not some of their ideas they are enthusiasts and they in it due to their interest. Jonathan Weiss however is now enthusiasts, he is not even a human – he is faulty bug that need to be religiously obliterated. Jonathan Weiss has no relation to Cogent, he was gluing himself to Cogent when they got publicity, but thankfully they are not idiots and based upon their warnings they know very well what kind filth Jonathan Weiss is.

I think in future if Cogent go for 150-200V filed coil and will be able to defeat that dull tone then it might be a viable option. Still, it is too big, it require infrastructure with PS – it might be too much. I also would like to have everything in the way exactly how I want (I admit that I am a pain in ass customer) and I do not think that Cogent would have interest to customize their driver specifically for my needs.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 15229
Reply to: 15224
The underhood of ”depth” of multicells.
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I said, my 18-cell has that interesting depth or multi-dimensionality effect that I do like a lot. I know the sound of my Vitavox drivers and I know that I do not have this effect with my spherical horns. I would like to think a bit about the nature of this effect – where it comes from and what is responsible for it. There are some negative effects of multicells depth as well and I would like to look a bit deeper into it. The effect does not exist on 4-5 sections and look like it appears only on those large multicells. Interesting, I need to think about it….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 15230
Reply to: 15229
Filing them to sand.
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I told the design requirements were to makes the horns fillbale with sand. So I did it with one horn. I still keep shaking it rotating it to settle the sand down. So felled up one horn, it took 57 pounds of sand. Add to it 20 pounds of own mass make that horns very heavy. I guy I know who dealt with it before assures me that with sand and the mass the horn shall pick up lower end extension. I will see how the sand-filled horn will sound/measured against the hollow horn.

I do have some interesting ideas about the nature of that “virtual death” with multicells, I will make a write up later on when I have time. Also, I have a new original idea how I might use this horn, if I use it. I will post it with time…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 10
Post ID: 15231
Reply to: 15229
18-Cell X-Factor
fiogf49gjkf0d

I would not be surprised to learn that the impression of depth from multi-cells is the result of their creating a bit of what has been referred to on this site as the x-factor; a sort of cross-feed/expander effect (see discussion of Lamm preamps and x-factor). In one case we are talking about an electronic amplifier, in the other a physical amplifier. While it may be useful to describe the effect in similar terms, the means by which it is achieved in each case are obviously different.
 
So how might these horns be producing x-factor?
 
My hypothesis:
 
Multi-cell horns take what comes out of the driver and slice it into parts; in this case into 18 parts; each cell then processes a different part of the total; parts taken near the center of the throat are not the same as those taken near the periphery (especially given a throat of rectangular-section). Each part is processed in isolation; meaning in the absence of the total sum, which must be very different from allowing development in the presence of the total. The result is that the 18 parts exit the horn each having different "identities". This might be analogous to quintuplets (18-tuplets?) separated at birth, sent off to different boarding schools, then reunited. Or to a schizophrenic looking out the window. Or to a melting-pot culture as opposed to a society of clones.

Upon exit, the product of each cell, which lack different parts of the total, collides with or overlaps that of neighboring cells, resulting in a sort of fusion that does not occur with single-cell horns. The "offspring" that is the product of this fusion might be "healthy" and interesting.
 
If any of what I'm hypothesizing is valid, a multi-cell, round-section horn having its partitions evenly spaced and radiating from the center, would not produce the effect of depth, as this would result in a "society of clones"; the resulting "offspring" would be analogous to the product of inbreeding. Varying the spacing of the partitions and adding a second tier (a flare within the flare) should result in healthy offspring; the impression of depth.

If a multi-cell horn is analogous to a melting-pot society, a correctly implemented, single-cell horn might be analogous to the complete, right-living man of exceptional integrity (something even more rare than correctly implemented horns). A single, correctly implemented horn will not offer the x-factor of a multi-cell, but an audio system consisting of correctly implemented, single-cell horns should result in its own kind of x-factor.

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 11
Post ID: 15233
Reply to: 15231
Yamaha
fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe the Yamaha will do better than the S3.

http://www.azurahorn.com/Yamaha_on_204.pdf
12-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 15234
Reply to: 15229
Some thoughts about my 18-cell horn
fiogf49gjkf0d

My 18-cell is a classic 18-cell very similar of the one that the guy from Sweden built:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/136964-construction-multicell-horn.html

The difference is that my multicell has 3 extra cells and outer skin that allow the horns to be filled it with sand.  I have some things that I like and do not like in my new horns but the construction of the multicell is pretty much irrelevant for what I care at this time.

 Running my 18-cell full-range with my Vitavox I do see all that I like and do not like with multicells full-range. But as I said above - that “depth” of the multi-dimensionality effect is not something that might is interesting. I think the key of multicell depth are in the fact that multicells acts as error randomizer.  The multicells are not perfect horns - the entrance to the multicell screen from throat is horrible, the individual cells are time misaligned to each other as they are angled, each neighboring cell acts as re-entry hors and many other problems that I might  call. But the nice thing about multicells and only about multicells with many multiple cells is that error of each cell is randomized and as result made undetectable.  As the result think we use with multicell horns the effect similar to the one what we in childhood when we “heard ocean” but closing large seashells to our ears.

One of the ugliest things with multicell is that fact the room is reflected in the horn. If you hear very careful then you can recognize that sound eco itself in multicell. It feels like multicell acts as an array of self-shorted Helmholtz resonators. Some people managed to do it even with a single cell horn (for instance the large conical Congent MF horn at CES had VERY strong this effect for some reasons). The multicell horn has this effect much stronger. However, I think if to recognize this effect and if to control it sensibly and creatively is possible.

So, what multicell my new 18-cell has to do with Macondo? Good question. First of all I would like it to be not 18-cell but 14-cell or 30-cell, the more is better.  The initial idea was to replace my Fundamental Channel with larger with restricted height but as now I can see that this idea will not work. The 183Hz slow opening horn is too long for my current Macondo frame and it will break time alignment among with a few other Macondo things.  It is possible to accommodate this 18-cell with Macondo but it will take to make another frame. I do not want to do it as I do not feel that cost-benefit will be significant.

Experimenting with my multicell I come to a very interesting idea that if I use multicell in HF-restricted more and driver via it only Fundamental Channels spectra then I can set my 18-cell way off the Macondo and try to attack with it the Macondos’ width-modulation.  I have written about it in the following article:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=15000

So, I think to position the multicell vertically on the outer sides of Macondo and to see if I will be able to convert my 18-cell into with-modulating channel. I would need to assess how it all works all together only what playback works perfectly it means that after my PP2000 come back. I will see if this type of Fundamental Channel offset will be useful. I think it will be but it will be necessary to set the thing up very sensibly. Below is a phonograph of the Macondo rig channel with added width-modulating multicell. The picture is made from the Listening chair and it gives an idea what I am trying to do.  The time will show if it works.

Multicell_Fundamental_4.JPG

Regarding the drivers. Will see. There are a number of drivers out there that can go for 300Hz or lower but I do not know at this point what kind sound I would like to have from this channel.  It obviously will be some that would go lover then S2/S3 but I do not know how much transients the width modulator will handle. It is possible that the width-modulating multicell will demands a very soft sounding driver, so I will be looking in it with time. For now I need to paint this horn in black as soon as possible….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 13
Post ID: 15237
Reply to: 15234
Lower limit: S3 vs S2 into multi-cell
fiogf49gjkf0d
my wrote:
"...The lower knee of the driver range is fantastic, superbly clean and this is in a way very bad as it is a clear indication that the horn is too large for the driver. I think S3 drop like stone at 450Hz but I would need something that would do down to 300Hz..."
   
An S2 playing into a single-cell, round section tractrix will go down that low; I don't know if this might be taken as an indication of what it would do in a multi-cell, but you've got S2s on hand so why not try?

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 15245
Reply to: 15237
The Goto SG-555PS with 180Hz multicell?
fiogf49gjkf0d

A few days back a Goto SG-555PS driver pop up for sale in Australia. My idea to try this Goto is because it has diaphragm in front and it would be easy for time-aliment. I was considering getting it but the price was too high for my need. If I know certainly that need this driver then I might pay but since I want just to test it them what options I have. The US distributor looks like do not have trail driver, so I do not think I have any options besides listen the comments of other and bet that it might work for me. As far as I concern this is an idiotic situation.

The Goto SG-555P driver look like will be OK match for my 183Hz horn.

http://audio-database.com/GOTO%20UNIT/unit/index.html

It said that optimal crossover is from 200Hz - 4kHz that might be very good for me. This time a near new pair of Goto SG-555PS went for $2800, in July a pair of them in less exiting condition were sold for $1800. So, I think $2K is a reasonable price for a pair of Goto SG-555PS in good shape.  In Japan the list price for Goto SG-555PS is under $3K and the street price 25% lower as usually.

I am still not at ease with Goto drivers. Might be it would be a good opportunity to try them. If I have somebody who sends me one of those Goto SG-555 for a few days…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 15
Post ID: 15246
Reply to: 15245
Why a 200Hz driver? The useful honk.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would like to expose what my intentions are what I was tiling above about Goto 555 or a similar 200Hz driver.  My S2 does not stress the bottom of my 183Hz horn. My multi-cell is expositional and those types of horns do pick honk very aggressively of driver outputs lower then horn can handle. I would like to have a driver that will be able to choke this horn with bass. Probably Goto 555 will be a good frequency-wise but I do not know if Goto has provision and access to modify resonance frequency. Theoretically, on the picture Goto 555 is vented driver and it is possible that Fs might be moderated. However, since Goto users are mostly audio-wise unintelligent it is hard to get any information about it. I also never had seen the Goto drivers’ schematics.

So, what I am trying to accomplish. I would like to get a satiation what I will be able to get mandible honk. I can see the faces of the readers to turn sour – any horns user would like to run from honk as far as possible. However, that attitude is a bit superficial.  I have written in my Midbass  Projects thread that I do like honk if it is properly implemented. It practically never properly implemented. Do you want to hear it properly implemented – go and listen any brass section of any orchestra in the world. A properly made honk from playback is very very refund and it more sounds like harmonic infliction of softness then playback coloration.  The in it is very precise moderation of amount of honk projected to dymick range. I was not able to do it with my Midbass channel and I made to fire free from useful honk. However,  I do not see why I can’t do it with my multi-cell.

So, this is why I am looking more bass able driver then my Vitavox. I still will use my S2/S3 and it possible that after the sand-filing the will do different bass. My currant Fundamental Channel is 250Hz,Tractrix. S2/S3 does stress it but I need a long neck, slow opening horn for those objectives. I do have a very good Vitavox 220Hz horn. Not the classic 4 sections but the small sections at the throat. This is very good horn and it does work very nice with S2/S3. The bottom of the S2/S3 get nicely honky in this horn but in a bit ringing fashion. My multi-cell is 183Hz – a whole 43Hz below the Vitavox 220Hz horn – that is a lot in the horn world and I am afraid the S2/S3 would not do it….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 15251
Reply to: 15201
Hm, it works but I am not thrilled.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ok, I loaded the S3 driver into the new multicells, use my extra of bas sections as a pedestal for multicell, connected 2 extra bass channels to ULF amp and the multicells to full range amps with no crossovers. Yes, I got a VERY good width and the whole things dancing now more interesting. At the same time something that I do not like show up in sound. It is like you are very hungry and instead of fancy-shmancy cooked piece of sophisticated pork steak somebody give you an ordinary cooked piece of veal but large amount. Sure you not going to be hungry if you eat a half cow but the ceremony of eating become kind of different.

Multicell_Fundamental_5.JPG

It is highly possible that to get this configuration to work as it might everything need be very painstaking calibrated and aligned – it is not how I have it now.  I am not planning to get anything done better unit I get my fixed PP2000 back, so it will be sitting as is.

There are 3 things that are very certain at this point:

1)      The main dispute with myself that I need to address: if I would like to have large side-located multicell with small throat driver and long horn or if I would like to have large throat driver with shorter multicell sitting in the position of my current Fundamental Channel

2)      If I do it again then I would do my multicell differently or request it to be made differently

3)      I don’t like that Macondo grows. It becomes to lose some elegance. Perhaps I need to redo the enter frame with respect of the new room and new listening distance? If I could outsource this task then it would be so great…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 17
Post ID: 15252
Reply to: 15251
While I am waiting….
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was exploring the park of lower MF drivers and I think I have found one that I will pursue.

However, while I will be waiting for my drivers to arrive I ask myself a question what would happen if put a few gaskets under my S2/S2 diaphragms? If I move the S2/S2 cone out of the phase plug I will have more confused HF, something that I do not care in this channel, it shall give more bass, or at least more LF boom out of the driver.  I need to try it another day….

The cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 18
Post ID: 15253
Reply to: 15246
I introduce honk for dynamic effect
fiogf49gjkf0d
As a horn player, I sometimes introduce honk because it introduces a stress tone that feels louder, without actually having to play louder. THis gives me more dynamic flexibility, and I can communicate more extremes.

I have never heard this introduced in playback
12-21-2010 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 19
Post ID: 15255
Reply to: 15253
A tribute to a properly implemented honk.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 zanon wrote:
As a horn player, I sometimes introduce honk because it introduces a stress tone that feels louder, without actually having to play louder. THis gives me more dynamic flexibility, and I can communicate more extremes.

I have never heard this introduced in playback

Zanon, first of all I would argue that honk used ONLY as “brass virtual clipping” in order to frost the cake of dynamic range. In fact I would says that if it always used this way then we might talk about coloration of the playing techniques. Sure as a human you make your judgment when to spice your loudness with honk and to which degree, this is the whole beauty. Second of all I would state that all brass instruments in one way or other tend to have honk and it never considered as especially negative characteristic.

Then we have a playback. Sure the methods and the means of creating sound by live people and by playback are radically different but the final result and the goals are very much the same. If so, then why we OK are with honk of live sound but reject honk of playback? Sure, live honk and playback honk are coming from different reasons and have different quality but this explanation will be final ONLY for the people who have wrong global perception of what playback does. Let me in extremely abridged forms to explain what I mean I it will take a next paragraph and then I will go back to the subject.

You see, 99.999% of audio people out there are under a stupid, illusionary believe that playback is just more or less accurate carbon copy of live sound and they are trying to make their home sound to mimics what they hear in symphony halls. So, as the result sit in their listening rooms around the face figures of Madame Tussauds and are trying to get inspiration from a raised Marilyn Monroe’s wax skirt.  The truth is that playback is a representative of live sound but it is a completely new sound, not the replica but rather a delegation of intend. This is a big subject and I do not want to go in there here but it needs to be very clear what I stay on it. Furthermore, when I meet audio people who do not understand (majority) or do not support my notion of playback as a NEW consciousness (contrary to replica) then I instantly deny to those people any presumption of audio normality and consider that they do not practice audio but “psychologc acupuncture by sound” ™.

Now back to the notion of honk in playback. If we agree that playback is not replica of original sound but new sound then why it shell not have own honk, or more accurately say the “impression of honk”? Of course it might. The key in my view is very clearly understand the nature of honk during live sound and played back sound. Live sound have honk as expression or as organic narrative. The useful honk in playback (we do not even consider honk as errors or mistakes of playback) has no knowledge about expressionism or about intention and understand ONLY phase/volume algorithms. I do not think that it is possible to make playback to produce honk properly without a dedicated honk modulator, the modulator that will run own logic, but I do not see why it might not be done so. I have for years one old metal “narow” horn that I still keep I plug from time to time and from which I get a phenomenally wonderful honk. If the volume of and the bandwidth of the horn are right then honk auditable only sometimes and give to sound (sometimes) that wonderful effect of “cold nose on brass”. It is very nice to soft let say the brass of Tokyo Philharmonic or even  Chicago Symphony. A proper amount and quality of honk does not soft them in volume but soft them in feeling, adding some humanity and palatability.

Sure brass shall be able to play clean but clean brass does not exist in my view. Do you remember that roaring opening sonority of the second movement of Tchaikovsky Fifth and the entrance of the horn? Try to visualize if as “clean” brass with any honk. What will have left - the air ring from pipe? The point is that proper tone and proper honk create positive venture on brass. It is not a problem in audio generally but in horn would we so afraid of honk that we do throw baby with water in my view…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 20
Post ID: 15262
Reply to: 15255
But what about honk from strings?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy:

I understand what you say. "Brass virtual clipping" is a fine way to describe it, although a player can introduce a similar tone in his instrument well short of maximum volume if he so chooses and thinks it is appropriate.

My question is this -- in playback, how do you limit horn honk to just brass when there is no way to separate the instruments playing in an ensemble? Honk from strings for example sounds like crap.

There are many wonderful wonderful effects you can get from mass of horns. Tchaikovsky is a good example. I am also partial (sometimes) to Copeland where the mass of brass rips the very air apart. It is a wonderful sound when you are in the mood for it.
Page 1 of 2 (24 items) Select Pages:  1 2 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Adding one more spherical to Macondo...  It is about magnet and SS type....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     92  664968  05-23-2006
  »  New  How to paint Multicell horns?..  Hm, it works but I am not thrilled....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  24528  12-09-2010
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1066590  08-03-2007
  »  New  The Evolution of Honk...  Horn-loading and compression had no direct relativity t...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  18132  06-06-2010
  »  New  The Multicells HF Horns...  Construction plans of Altec 1505...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     9  76451  04-22-2005
  »  New  Open cell foam in horns and MF drivers..  Radian replacement for 2482...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     40  261452  01-25-2008
  »  New  Macondo Frame modification...  Parquet...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     46  304667  12-22-2006
  »  New  JBL 2490 mid-range driver..  Any result of your experiments ?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     10  57539  01-01-2011
  »  New  Romy's Multi-cell Horns Where Are They?..  Love The Look...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  11594  08-17-2013
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts