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11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 14980
Reply to: 14980
Polish Autotech steps up to Universe
fiogf49gjkf0d

Zagaja, posted an interesting document in the thread “Who builds horns?” It looks like Polish Autotech Company stated to organize their horn in some kind of complete systems. That is already something, a few comment I would like to pass,

The lustration shows the Autotech Universe speaker, as I understand it was setup at some kind of trade show in hotel room.

Autotech_Universe.JPG

The things on a right and the horns on the floor are irrelevant. The Universe consists of 3 horns. As I can see one La-horn of probably 125Hz, one 7khz tweeter is also La-horn and looks like odd profile diagonal horn. I said odd profile because I do not see any proper profile in it. The mouth might be let say 65Hz but I do not see the proper long semi-parallel section next to the throat. The horn looks like beginning to open right the way and mach faster than what I would expect from parabolic curve. The opening rate is rather conical but with diagonal twists. There is nothing specifically wrong with it but it makes it hard to predict how it might sound. I absolutely applaud to the idea of diagonal horns. I have made countless drawing of them myself and I absolutely love it.

The configuration of MF horn is a bit controversial. Why they lift the MF horn up? I Guess then wanted MF to radiate at ears level.  I do not like this configuration. What I would do is to make the 125Hz horn not to be La-profile. This would save good 4-6” inches of height. Then I would convert the horn into upperbass, lover it all the way doe and add of more small MF horn. In a way it would be a move toward to Macondo – but unfortunately the move toward to Macondo ideas is absolutely unavoidable… I think that even keeping the horn as is an extra MF charnel might be added, something similar to the AG Trio only with position of the tweeter as the Universe do and with this sexy diagonal horn. BTW, with diagonal horn it might not be a need to drive the Universe lower MF channel too low and they might go away with a smaller horn.

How, this thing would sound? It would deepen from what drivers Autotech use and how the drivers are used in the horns. Regardless what it is I see a good signs of interesting progress in what Autotech does. Let face it- the only reasons the company exist is because they have a big and expensive plastic press. The Germans Avantgarde Acoustic started when Holger Fromme inherited from his father plastic press and was contemplating what to do with it. I know, I know at Avantgarde Acoustic site they will tell you a different story – that Holger was a “great horn designer” since the time of Archimedes but it is not too accurate. So, for Autotech is very similar to the Avantgarde is absolutely irrelevant what they press – horn of handles for brushes to clean toilets.  The rule of the game is that if you own a press like this then you do not want it to idle and do nothing - you want it to do some kind of production runs. The Autotech presses a lot of this, inducing hors:

http://www.autotech.pl/

It looks like the folks who run the Autotech audio department moved from pressing individual horns to forming horns into some kind of complete systems. This is a very good move and I am sure we will see more coming.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 2
Post ID: 14983
Reply to: 14980
Rocket horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
I saw and hear thise horns on audio show in Waraw this month(I went 200km to this show only to hear this thing). It is La-horn 200hz, smaler horn is La-horn 1000hz not diagonal. Drivers is BMS. Bass is TL. Orginal name of this system is ROCKET but they will by sell by Voxavit as UNIVERSE.
I hear this system for 10 minutes and very much not like the sound. Bass was like from another system, and many more. Zagaja told me that they starting tune universe for the first time, they never singing before.
From what I know is that they dont have press, they make mold on CNC and then thy work like azurahorn.

Look at the floor, that is prototype of my Ivatas Smile
autotech horns.jpg



Best
Dominik

11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 14985
Reply to: 14983
Give to them some time.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Dominik wrote:
I saw and hear thise horns on audio show in Waraw this month(I went 200km to this show only to hear this thing). It is La-horn 200hz, smaler horn is La-horn 1000hz. Drivers is BMS. Bass is TL. Orginal name of this system is ROCKET but they will by sell by Voxavit as UNIVERSE.

Are you sure that it was 200hz not 200km? The horn look to large to be 200Hz horn? Also, the tweeter look like has 3” typical tweeter has and the rest is just the La-horn negative opening. Well, perhaps the La-horn negative opening is something that deceived me about the 200Hz horn?
 Dominik wrote:
I hear this system for 10 minutes and very much not like the sound. Bass was like from another system, and many more. Zagaja told me that they starting tune universe for the first time, they never singing before.

It is OK, this is normal. To make the installation like this to sound fine is a lot of work, no one would spend too much work for stinky show rooms. Also, we do not know if the people behind all of it have any idea what find sound is. It is cool that there is a big horn manufacture in Poland. Let give them some time to “get” what they are doing and to figure out how to make what they do to sound interesting.
 Dominik wrote:
From what I know is that they dont have press, they make mold on CNC and then thy work like azurahorn.

I am under impression that all of them are pressed. If they, or azurahorns or AG are not pressed by CNCed then why they chose made them so skinny and thin? I think they press them. It is not that it is important however…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 4
Post ID: 14986
Reply to: 14985
Km and hz :)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Are you sure that it was 200hz not 200km? The horn look to large to be 200Hz horn? Also, the tweeter look like has 3” typical tweeter has and the rest is just the La-horn negative opening.
The caT


Iam sure that it is 200hz not 200kmrocket prototype.jpg

I know very much that it will take time to by right. Frankly speaking, some peoples write on Polish audio forum that on the second day show, they play much, much better.

I will bring Jacek right here, he will explain building technics, corect me if I write somethig wrong and mayby they say something about sound and his targets.....................

Best
Dominik


11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 436
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 14987
Reply to: 14986
Zubrowka vs. Zoladkowa Gorzka sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
...and we will start some little Polish mafia here, explaining to the morons the benefits of
soaking not only our brains but also the diaphragms of our speakers with premium Zubrowka,
Chopin or Zoladkowa Gorzka vodkas ;-)

Seriously, nice initiative, hope the people behind are motivated  enough to keep learning and keep
it running. Any idea on the prices, esp. for custom works? If they have a hughe CNC mill, can they work in
other materials, directly in MDF, etc?

Cheers,
N-set



Cheers,
Jarek
11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jzagaja
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2010

Post #: 6
Post ID: 14988
Reply to: 14986
Universe explained
fiogf49gjkf0d
To make the story short Smile Autotech is a family business located in Lublin, Poland. Younger brothers graduated in mechanical engineering are cars and racing lovers - with scores in Europe as professional drivers and mechanics. One year ago Lukas wrote to me asking if we can start making JMLC horns. He loves to make things with passion. We have made a complete range of JMLC horns includes asymmetrical and two waveguides supplying to DIY and OEM. because investment was significant we continue with a complete speakers - making affordable horns is romantic but we need amortization.
We do not press like Avangrade. It's hand lamination with full rollback that's why horns looks bigger for particular "cut off". Avantgrade expands more rapidly, Tractrix is much smaller. Our horns are diffraction killers. I was told by visitors during Audioshow that vibrations are much smaller than in Avantgarde.
Please note we made those 4 models: Universe, Mummies, Drops and Sub1 in one month! Which company works under such pressure? Because passive crossover was impossible we chosen DSP controlled fully digital amplifier - to many hot things. During assembly on Friday nothing worked. On Saturday we realized that switching power supply is faulty. On Sunday we started tune up system without measurements and sound started to be ok. Heavy metal lovers told us this was the only one system capable of reproducing such a dense music.
Now I have one Universe in my home and I like it very much - I think the reason is midrange reproduced with small dome of Monacor KU-516 and highs from ringradiator. Of course distance between 200Hz horn and 1000Hz is too large but you can install smaller JMLC-350 or coax driver from BMS or BC. This is an ultimate option. As for the 1:10 transmission line - we have made custom 16Ohm driver for tiny 20W amplifier in BTL mode and allow push-pull action reducing size of labyrinth. Bass is punchy, tight and integrated with room much better than 4th order bandpass. Passive crossover is ready - mix of 1st and 2nd order filters with one amplifier side Zobel - ruler flat impedance of 4Ohms (80Hz and up). Below is RAW response without crossover in my room.
11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jzagaja
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2010

Post #: 7
Post ID: 14989
Reply to: 14988
Surface
fiogf49gjkf0d
Examples of finishing. Yes custom order made of MDF is possible. 
11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 14992
Reply to: 14988
Some kind of sound?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jzagaja wrote:
To make the story short Smile Autotech is a family business located in Lublin, Poland. Younger brothers graduated in mechanical engineering are cars and racing lovers - with scores in Europe as professional drivers and mechanics. One year ago Lukas wrote to me asking if we can start making JMLC horns. He loves to make things with passion. We have made a complete range of JMLC horns includes asymmetrical and two waveguides supplying to DIY and OEM. because investment was significant we continue with a complete speakers - making affordable horns is romantic but we need amortization.
We do not press like Avangrade. It's hand lamination with full rollback that's why horns looks bigger for particular "cut off". Avantgrade expands more rapidly, Tractrix is much smaller. Our horns are diffraction killers. I was told by visitors during Audioshow that vibrations are much smaller than in Avantgarde.
Please note we made those 4 models: Universe, Mummies, Drops and Sub1 in one month! Which company works under such pressure? Because passive crossover was impossible we chosen DSP controlled fully digital amplifier - to many hot things. During assembly on Friday nothing worked. On Saturday we realized that switching power supply is faulty. On Sunday we started tune up system without measurements and sound started to be ok. Heavy metal lovers told us this was the only one system capable of reproducing such a dense music.
Now I have one Universe in my home and I like it very much - I think the reason is midrange reproduced with small dome of Monacor KU-516 and highs from ringradiator. Of course distance between 200Hz horn and 1000Hz is too large but you can install smaller JMLC-350 or coax driver from BMS or BC. This is an ultimate option. As for the 1:10 transmission line - we have made custom 16Ohm driver for tiny 20W amplifier in BTL mode and allow push-pull action reducing size of labyrinth. Bass is punchy, tight and integrated with room much better than 4th order bandpass. Passive crossover is ready - mix of 1st and 2nd order filters with one amplifier side Zobel - ruler flat impedance of 4Ohms (80Hz and up). Below is RAW response without crossover in my room.
Jzagaja,

from what you explain it feels that you are at very beginning of making your horn to sound interesting. Please, do not take in wrong way. You see, with loudspeakers it is very easy – take any driver, connect it to any amp and you will get some kind of sound. The key is to get the worthy Sound. From what you describe I do not see any conditions what I see conditions for interesting Sound arise. It is great that you guys have enthusiasm to play with horns but they are juts horns - dead piece of furniture. You need to find ways to make them to Sound “interestingly” and this is much more complicated then to make custom nice looking coating. Anyhow, if you guys need any help of specific interested then it is your thread, be my quest. I think you need to work a lot with your Universe model to get some Sound out of it, I less care about your smaller models.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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