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11-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 14894
Reply to: 14894
About Single Driver Speakers and their idiots owners.
fiogf49gjkf0d

First of all, the people who read this thread need to understand that I use the metaphor “idiots owners” purely in pedagogical sense. There is nothing idiotic to run neither single driver speakers, to have very bad speakers or not to have speakers at all. Still, I make an assumption that people who read this site are in quest to use own actions and intentions to inflict differences upon sound reproduction. So, the presumption that I have that the people who do read this site all are in pursue of some kind of added influence that come by means of sound reproduction techniques.

Playing with my 7 channels, all-active playback and formatting the sound in a way how I feel it need to be I observe an incredible compliance of each individual channel and I observe how the 1/2dB attenuation of one channel for instance shapes the entire sound in very different way. I clearly see that the performance of individual channels is very much depends from many, very-very many environmental circumstances, starting from plate current on the given channel amplifier and ending with a location of some acoustics-affecting object in the room.

So, my wondering what the tools the idiotic supporters of Single Driver Speakers have that allow them to shape sound in a way they need? I many times within my site and everywhere else demeaned the Single Driver Speakers notion, pointing many, very many very questionable aspects of Single Driver Speakers performance, starting with enormous intermodulations of Single Driver and ending up with Single Driver Speakers debility to handle anything besides very narrow midrange and only at very low volumes.  However, it never come to me that in addition to all typical Single Driver Speakers users the Single Driver Speakers user juts do not have any ways to inflict own sonic will to their own speakers.

Even if the absolute Single Driver Speaker is made with absolutely phenomenal performance (they uselessly show up in March of each year and in July people who tried them learn the it was juts shit) then this phenomenal performance is applicable ONLY for the fixed condition that practice shows me – never replicated. Let say the resourceful Japanese, French or Italians came up with a new super kinky Single Driver Speaker. The diaphragm was made with a placenta of Yangtze River Dolphin and suspended on the gravity of a miniature Black Hole. The Speaker sound spectacular but will it sound so in another room. Another room will have 1001 different sound-affective circumstances but no Single Driver Speaker has provisions to deal with them.

So, in my mind the Single Driver Speaker is a fine foe the people who has no specific and no personal demands to sound. They are the part of those people who are coming to the concerts and scream “Bravo” in response to a horrible play when even musicians themselves are so ashamed to raise eyes. The Single Driver Speaker are bad by themselves and they are not the playback that is able to embrace and deliver the wish of a system owner.

Think of a virtuoso trombonist who is sitting in orchestra and absolutely not in compliance with what conductor wish or what the rest of musicians do.  In case of the Single Driver Speaker this trombonist is not a virtuoso but a horrible player with attitude problems.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 2
Post ID: 14906
Reply to: 14894
As idiotic as taming horses
fiogf49gjkf0d
Taming strange fullrange drivers is fun, doesn't cost an arm and a leg and there is always room for a second, third, etc. system.
E.g. what to do with such a ridiculous unit?
http://www.ciare.com/pdf/catalogo/HX135.PDF
Back-loading? No problem when the compression chamber is 100 l and the whole room is the horn. Only good for easy listening levels, but getting full 40 Hz and an acceptable tonal balance out of 5"/5 g is also a success.
11-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 14910
Reply to: 14894
All of the shelf owners have this problem, not just single driver
fiogf49gjkf0d
Oh please Romy:

What advantage does multichannel B&W owner have over off the shelf single driver (like Druid or whatever)??

The multichannel B&W owner cannot alter level of each channel by 1db. He cannot slide the crossover up or down 20 Hz, nor play with slope. How will he implement "sonic will"? Break open the case and begin playing with capacitors? No.

What you are talking about is a problem with off the shelf components. With such approach, you can move and treat in room, play with amplifier etc., but that is it. You have this with single driver and multi-driver. I do not see why you single out single driver for this criticism (although of course you can single them out for plenty of other criticisms)
11-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 14911
Reply to: 14910
Limited options, if any options.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Zanon, it is not that I do not see a point in your comment. Still, I do not see that it contradicts anything that I said. Yes, I do feel that many people who just take audio as deep as buying a pair of B&W speakers do not have any specific well-formed objectives how they would like their audio to perform. It is not bad itself but from a perspective how I tend to expose audio at my site it is not too advance audio practicing.

The “issues” I exposed in my post above was that if a person DOES have any personal objective to shape sound then using a full-range driver the person has very limited options, if any options.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 14913
Reply to: 14911
What options do 3-way multidriver give you?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy:

IF a person does have personal objectives to shape sound, then what additional options do they get with a 3-way off the shelf B&W that they do not have with full range driver?
11-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 14914
Reply to: 14913
Isn’t it answer contains in your question?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zanon wrote:
Romy:
IF a person does have personal objectives to shape sound, then what additional options do they get with a 3-way off the shelf B&W that they do not have with full range driver?
Zanon, I think this is a whole point – a multidriver system does have options.  Can’t say about B&W – I did not use them but many manufactures do offer options for attenuation of individual drivers. If not then I always use options for attenuation tweeters by rolling toilet paper over them. Think about it – most of today speakers go down to 30Hz-40Hz but at that frequency the response is 50% of room constitution. The manufactures have no control over it, this way the whole stupid industry of bass traps is invented.

In case of multiple drivers the system becomes much more flexible and accommodatable to the specific condition of the given room. I have absolutely no idea what people do if they have a single driver that outputs from 12kHz to 50Hz. If it does relatively flat response (none of them do) then let it to be it but if not then what one can do? To soak the cone with mineral liquids and to paint Masonic symbols on the diaphragms?

You ask what additional options they get with a 3-way compare to a single driver. Isn’t it answer contains in your question?

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 14915
Reply to: 14914
I did not know you could do that
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy:

I was not aware that manufacturers of multidriver system let you attenuate individual drivers. I guess if you multi-amp, then you have control at that level. I have never encountered such a system so I cannot say, but if it is an option, then yes, it is a big advantage of multi-way over single driver.

In general though, people completely ignore room setup and it has a big impact on sound, up to lower midrange. You can do a lot to manipulate sound via placement, which is true of single and multi of course.

It would be interesting to see how many people who have off the shelf multiway system have actually attenuated an individual driver.
11-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 14916
Reply to: 14915
Of course you can do it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zanon wrote:
Romy:

I was not aware that manufacturers of multidriver system let you attenuate individual drivers. I guess if you multi-amp, then you have control at that level. I have never encountered such a system so I cannot say, but if it is an option, then yes, it is a big advantage of multi-way over single driver.

In general though, people completely ignore room setup and it has a big impact on sound, up to lower midrange. You can do a lot to manipulate sound via placement, which is true of single and multi of course.

It would be interesting to see how many people who have off the shelf multiway system have actually attenuated an individual driver.
And it is not that you can do it but it is a very common practice. Some manufacturers offer actuators of sometime tapping pads. I think even the largest Wilsons offer a set of series resistors for crossovers to attenuate HF. It is very common practice to cover the ports for ported design to get more proper response for given speaker for a given room. Some manufacturers even offer along with the speakers special inserts made for the ports. I have old and ugly Altec 19 home that has tweeter and MF attenuator – stupidly done but nevertheless… And of course any person who has ears and do not care too much about the shiny glossy surface of the speakers would do to them whatever s/he want in order to get from them the sound that s/he wants. The hole point is that with a single-driver speakers there is no options besides to boil them for 30 minutes in sulfuric acid.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 9
Post ID: 14919
Reply to: 14916
Single cross over
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
And it is not that you can do it but it is a very common practice. Some manufacturers offer actuators of sometime tapping pads. I think even the largest Wilsons offer a set of series resistors for crossovers to attenuate HF. It is very common practice to cover the ports for ported design to get more proper response for given speaker for a given room. Some manufacturers even offer along with the speakers special inserts made for the ports. I have old and ugly Altec 19 home that has tweeter and MF attenuator – stupidly done but nevertheless… And of course any person who has ears and do not care too much about the shiny glossy surface of the speakers would do to them whatever s/he want in order to get from them the sound that s/he wants. The hole point is that with a single-driver speakers there is no options besides to boil them for 30 minutes in sulfuric acid.


What happens if we try use the crossover for single driver to control bass mid high levels ... ?


unicon.

11-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,104
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 10
Post ID: 14920
Reply to: 14919
Good Question (see related posts)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Unicon, I have been effing with a "wide-range" Lowther for some time.  I will soon post a report on my most recent attempts to tame its rather ragged response, to be posted in the "Speakers for a Powerful SET" thread.

Best regards,
Paul S
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