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09-27-2005 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 1487
Reply to: 1487
Something that a loudspeaker must have.

This is quite recent conclusion, as I sick and tired to do not say it finally!

A loudspeaker must have a volume control that will adjust an amount of HF that a loudspeaker radiates into listening space. I playback systems that has an excessive 1/3 db at HF is unlistenable playback. Period!

So, how came that we can’t not set the correct HF volume and forget about? Well, the people who would ask this question probably never tried. All CD and LP are recorded differently, the audio-quality of power lines and many other factors would easily throw a playback at ”brighter” mode, and sometimes even in “sharper” mode (combinative effect of HF and a few other factors). Therefore the ability to dial-in the HF output very precisely for a given recording or performance (!) is very-very powerful tool that take will take the performance of you playback way out there, particularly in operas and string quarters.

I know, most of the loudspeaker designs do not allow any easy HF attenuations. In this case use what I use with 99% of all homes where I ever heard any audio – go to restroom, grub a few sheet of toilet paper and pat the tweeter with the paper. If you use your tweeter in the correct way – sitting at the transition slop without utilizing any "horizontal" frequency range, then all that you need to do is L-pad the tweeter. However, here is the catch – there are no resistors that would sound good, at least I did not see any. All higher power resistors add some glitz, and I have tried quite a few of them… So, the best scenario in this case is to attenuate the tweeter’s operating at transition slop using variable capacitance (be advised that caps would need ~2-4 weeks to begin sound OK in that application)

If you did go over all these hassle and have set your tweeter at perfect operation point then, ONLY THEN, you would get out of your audio what it actually might do. Then, you will not visit me, surprisingly asking why suddenly my favorite Verdi’s Requiem by Ferenc Fricsay with Berlin Symphony from 1953 sounds in my room so “musical”….

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-29-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 1494
Reply to: 1487
Re: Something that a loudspeaker must have.
Interesting point Romy. I wonder if using something like a photocamera iris diaphragm just in front of the tweeter would allow for a quick and "non invasive" treble adjustment. I thought of this when I recalled how tweeter response is handled by the Amati's tweeter, which uses a kind of metal grid right in front of it, and certainly that speaker's highs aren't as punchy as others'.

Brgs,

Ant.
09-29-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 1495
Reply to: 1494
Let the Amati's tweeters to be what they are...

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Antonio,

The Amati's tweeter and the rest of the similar tweeters are totally out of game form the prospective of my post above. The Amati's tweeters kick in at 2.500 with first order (heavily compensated), it means that those tweeters run the implementations way too compromised for handling HF. In addition the Amati are a typical three-way speaker were unwillingness to use one more driver made the designers to build a low-interest loudspeaker. I do not think that the iris diaphragms might be useful generally for those applications and certainly not with the Amati's type pf the tweeters. In optical system the iris diaphragms are losing this effectiveness when the size of the sources approximate the affective diameter of the diaphragms’ opening. When you use a “single point sources” then the iris diaphragms become completely disabled. I do not even mention the reflections from the back of the diaphragms leaves and the diffraction (propagation of waves to geometric shadows)…. Anyhow, I was referring in my post above only to the tweeters operating at transition slope – the only know to me way to use a tweeter correctly in 4 way installations…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-29-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 1496
Reply to: 1495
Reflections
Yes, I thought about them being an issue in such device, but I still wonder if there would be any relationship between the diameter of the iris and any filtering function on the response of the tweeter. The Amatis were mentioned just as they were the "source" of the idea, not because they offer any interesting result ;-)

Brgs

Ant
10-11-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
David@NY
Posts 6
Joined on 10-11-2005

Post #: 5
Post ID: 1519
Reply to: 1487
Re: Something that a loudspeaker must have.

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I believe speakers fall into 2 categories -- to serve personal preference, or to serve content of the source.  If it's designed to serve the content of the source then it shouldn't have any adjustments.  On the other hand, if it's purpose is to serve personal preference then it should be heavily adjustable to suit one's taste.
10-11-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 1520
Reply to: 1519
I, as usually, very much disagree.

 David@NY wrote:
I believe speakers fall into 2 categories -- to serve personal preference, or to serve content of the source.  If it's designed to serve the content of the source then it shouldn't have any adjustments.  On the other hand, if it's purpose is to serve personal preference then it should be heavily adjustable to suit one's taste.

David, welcome . I very much disagree with what are saying.

There are no personal preferences that might be pleased by any complimentary adjustable properties. What I mean: if listeners have civilized and serious reference points then they ALL operate within one unified common denominator of reproductive quality. Pretend that you have an ultimate sound processor that might change any property of sound reproduction without hearting anything else and pretend that 10000 of listeners were asked to adjust with this “ultimate sound processor” sound in order to make the playback to sound in there way they feel it should be. Some very minor group of people after making their adjustments will end up with identical sound, the most approximated to live sound. Ironically, this would be the only group of the people whose opinions and expertise would mean anything. However, the rest of the subjects (I would estimate 98%) will end up with own  “personal different preference” sounds, that would juts reflect their own corrupted references point and their listening immaturity. (This is the major reason why 98% of all playbacks out there suck)

There is another important fact or, that you David, do not took under consideration. The benefits of  “a better playback” might be assessed only in context of real benefits. Under the “real benefits” I mean the benefits of musicality not the benefits of sound reproductive methods. The personal preference might be applicable only in context of those “reproductive differences” and therefore they have nothing to do with real goals of reproduction.

Finally, the “serving the content of the source” is kind of ambiguous concept, as what would be a source? Obviously the recording itself is not “the souse. In fact there is not source at all in a “domain of subjects” and therefore, the “serving” should not be applied to the “content of the source” but rather to the “content of intentions”...

So, a properly used tweeter and a properly implemented tweeter adjuster are do not mean to “set personal preferences” but rather they are the mechanisms to eliminate the pollution of Sound with the contaminates of reproductive methods

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-11-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
David@NY
Posts 6
Joined on 10-11-2005

Post #: 7
Post ID: 1521
Reply to: 1520
Re: I, as usually, very much disagree.
 Romy the Cat wrote:

David, welcome . I very much disagree with what are saying.

There are no personal preferences that might be pleased by any complimentary adjustable properties. What I mean: if listeners have civilized and serious reference points then they ALL operate within one unified common denominator of reproductive quality. Pretend that you have an ultimate sound processor that might change any property of sound reproduction without hearting anything else and pretend that 10000 of listeners were asked to adjust with this “ultimate sound processor” sound in order to make the playback to sound in there way they feel it should be. Some very minor group of people after making their adjustments will end up with identical sound, the most approximated to live sound. Ironically, this would be the only group of the people whose opinions and expertise would mean anything. However, the rest of the subjects (I would estimate 98%) will end up with own  “personal different preference” sounds, that would juts reflect their own corrupted references point and their listening immaturity. (This is the major reason why 98% of all playbacks out there suck)

There is another important fact or, that you David, do not took under consideration. The benefits of  “a better playback” might be assessed only in context of real benefits. Under the “real benefits” I mean the benefits of musicality not the benefits of sound reproductive methods. The personal preference might be applicable only in context of those “reproductive differences” and therefore they have nothing to do with real goals of reproduction.

Finally, the “serving the content of the source” is kind of ambiguous concept, as what would be a source? Obviously the recording itself is not “the souse. In fact there is not source at all in a “domain of subjects” and therefore, the “serving” should not be applied to the “content of the source” but rather to the “content of intentions”...

So, a properly used tweeter and a properly implemented tweeter adjuster are do not mean to “set personal preferences” but rather they are the mechanisms to eliminate the pollution of Sound with the contaminates of reproductive methods

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


Maybe I'm not getting what you're trying to say.  Your original post indicated that speakers should allow adjustments to the tweeter volume because the tweeter gives excessive HF.  How can you be certain that it's not the speaker that's producing the excessive HF but your listening space?  I tend to think listening space is often a bigger issue than the speaker itself.

I believe audio currently is really more of serving personal preference than serving content since people have different set up and environment and you can't get the same sound any where.  While my goal is trying to serve the content as faithfully as possible, there is always the ambiguity on what/which is faithful and what isn't.  You can say the musicality itself is what should be re-produced, but what/who/how to judge that what you've reproduced is really the musician's and engineer's intent?
10-11-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 1522
Reply to: 1521
Re: I, as usually....

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 David@NY wrote:
Maybe I'm not getting what you're trying to say.  Your original post indicated that speakers should allow adjustments to the tweeter volume because the tweeter gives excessive HF.  How can you be certain that it's not the speaker that's producing the excessive HF but your listening space?  I tend to think listening space is often a bigger issue than the speaker itself.

My  “listening space” is quite taken care and sounds as it should sound relevant to the entire room installation and some other variables.  Also, a "listening space" is permanent variable but a contribution of HF into my sound (and as I feel that in anyone else sound) fluctuates quite dramatically. The listening space HF does not fluctuate (with minor exception of humidity and “before rain state” that might be disregarded in most of the cases)

 David@NY wrote:
You can say the musicality itself is what should be re-produced, but what/who/how to judge that what you've reproduced is really the musician's and engineer's intent?

Probably the drilling down into the definition of “musicality” would prove further clarification to this question.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-11-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
David@NY
Posts 6
Joined on 10-11-2005

Post #: 9
Post ID: 1523
Reply to: 1522
Re: I, as usually....

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 Romy the Cat wrote:

My  “listening space” is quite taken care and sounds as it should sound relevant to the entire room installation and some other variables.  Also, a "listening space" is permanent variable but a contribution of HF into my sound (and as I feel that in anyone else sound) fluctuates quite dramatically. The listening space HF does not fluctuate (with minor exception of humidity and “before rain state” that might be disregarded in most of the cases)

Hmm.  If the listening space is not a factor then I think the speaker might be at fault.  Have you found any speakers that doesn't peak at HF?

What would be interesting is to capture the graph from speaker output and compare it with original graph (WAV).  While there will be differences due to the setup and capture procedure, we should see peaking if it's evident.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Probably the drilling down into the definition of “musicality” would prove further clarification to this question.



Indeed.
10-11-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 1524
Reply to: 1523
If a listening space is not a factor....

Yes, centrally it is the speaker, actual not the speaker themselves but rather the speakers along with the entire reproductive chain. As far as the “speakers that doesn't peak at HF”… my do not, some other do not it as well. However the sufficiency of HF are not only the HF issues but also rather the transient characteristics of MF. I have quite capable MF range that allows me do not even go over 12kHz. Still, sometimes, the HF might be too prominent in my setup. When it happens then happens not because I have any “picks” in there but because the listening space juts got over saturated with HF. having the tweeters on the transition slop it is very sample to manage the HF saturation of “listening space” but juts adjusting the crossover point at the slop and do not affect absolutely anything else. BTW, here is an article that you might finer relevant: Beware of "Higher Frequencies Syndrome". Also, I would not see any justifications or reasons to compare the response of a source with a response of miked RTA.It would not say absolutely anything (unless the loudspeakers are objectively faulty and nonlinear) and would not be interpretable, at least as I can see it...

Rgs,
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-11-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 1525
Reply to: 1524
Pics of my tweeter with a transition slope attenuator

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Here are some images how I resolved my EV-T350 tweeter along with a transition slope attenuator.








PS: Please read the following follow-up:    
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=2790


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
David@NY
Posts 6
Joined on 10-11-2005

Post #: 12
Post ID: 1526
Reply to: 1525
Re: Pics of my tweeter with a transition slope attenuator
How did you adjust the slope?  By instrument or listening or both?
10-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 1527
Reply to: 1526
Just hearing.....

 David@NY wrote:
How did you adjust the slope?  By instrument or listening or both?

Well, as you understand I do not “adjust the slope” but juts move the crossover point on it’s slope. I do it explicitly by listening the thing – this was the initial idea and the purpose. I do not think that any instrumentation might be even applicable, well, I can measure it but it is completely not interpretable form my point of view. The attenuator has range from .001uF to m .2uf against 16Ohm.  Evan at .2uf that slop is starting from 50Khz and I arrive to the 12.5kHz with many-many decibels down. My usual setting of the attenuator is .086uF and when I go for .1uF it sounds too spicy. The point is that it would measurably affect very slightly the acoustic pressure somewhere at minus 12dB range, or even deeper, so I do not see any rational to take any measurements in this case under any considerations.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
David@NY
Posts 6
Joined on 10-11-2005

Post #: 14
Post ID: 1528
Reply to: 1527
Re: Just hearing.....
I meant to say how did you come to the current setting, sorry for the confusion.

Just from measurement point of view, how do you know if the settings now will accurately reflect what's stored on the medium?
10-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 15
Post ID: 1529
Reply to: 1528
Hearing is believing.

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 David@NY wrote:
Just from measurement point of view, how do you know if the settings now will accurately reflect what's stored on the medium?
David, I absolutely do not care what was stored on the medium. My objective is to make HF in the way how they should be discarding the misery of medium’s deltas or many other variants. Pretty much 2-3 orchestral accords are  absolutely sufficient enough to find out where my attenuator should be….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 76
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #: 16
Post ID: 1530
Reply to: 1529
how it should be

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 Romy the Cat wrote:

 My objective is to make HF in the way how they should be

The caT



and two more quotes from "I as usually very much disagree" above:

'''Under the “real benefits” I mean the benefits of musicality'''

""the “serving” should not be applied to the “content of the source” but rather to the “content of intentions”...""

Are you suggesting that there is some kind of non-relative truth in musicality
and that we can approach this through knowledge of how sound "should be" and
an awareness of the intentions of the artists?

A book soon to be published by Paul Boghossian:  "Fear of Knowledge, Against Relativism and Constructivism", 
"sweeps away relativist claims that there is no such thing as objective truth or knowledge" according to his publisher Oxford University Press. 


You have deviced an elegant attenuator Romy.  Is it enough to attenuate the high frequency horn or do you sometimes wish you could  turn down the higher ranges of the Vitavox as well?

Mats
10-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 17
Post ID: 1531
Reply to: 1530
juts the tweeter....

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Mats,

I have my opinion on the subject of the objective truth of knowledge but it has nothing to do with the subject of HF sufficiency. What I was talking was way more primitive and banal. The acoustic-like concentration and dissipation of HF within a listening space is well-definable and well-detectable by our senses. Any person with a sensible reference point in regards to “live” acoustic sound, with non-corrupted expectations (big rarity in audio) and with an elemental listening intelligence should instantaneously set volume of HF to a CORECT level. (Do not forget that in my case it is even simpler as my HF are the slope’s frequencies and they do not operate with any horizontal response). The real complexity might comes from the fact the HF might mask many other things or be juts wrongly reproduced, that in own turns would affect the level of “subjectively desired HF”… but it would be totally different subject…

Anyhow, the above present attenuator dose juts my tweeters….

Rgs.
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-22-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dazzdax
Netherlands
Posts 32
Joined on 10-22-2005

Post #: 18
Post ID: 1548
Reply to: 1531
Re: juts the tweeter....
Hi Romy, I agree with you that most speakers have some tilt-up treble response, maybe not on paper but subjectively so. I think this has to do with "beaming" of the tweeter. In real life sound in general (high frequencies included) becomes weaker because of the omnidirectional spread. In case of a tweeter, this sound energy is more present because sound is "beamed" in a certain direction and not in omnidirectional manner. My Dunlavy SC-V's also suffers from this tilt-up treble response. Too correct such a phenomenon I would have to modify the crossover to such an extend that it resembles more a thorough crossover redesign than a "simple" tweak. What do you think?

Chris
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