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  »  New  A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther..  A new reiteration of the Moscow setup....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  192792  02-27-2011
07-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 13996
Reply to: 13996
An educational Eugenie’s installation.
fiogf49gjkf0d
A few weeks back somebody pointed out me to a picture of this playback and I concluded that it is an idiocy. Today I had a few word with the owner of this playback and I read his articles where he describes what he is trying to do. I do not consider this as an idiocy anymore but I consider that the author make a number of mistakes in his concussions. The owner and creator of this installation a guy name Eugenie, he lives in Russia. Eugenie’s articles in Russian but in right top corner there is a button to translate them in English via Google.  The translation is not good but you wish you might suffer through it - I think it is well worth it (the images are clickable). I think that some of the Eugenie’s views are VERY stimulating and educational. I did not say that I agree with Eugenie’s view and with his conclusions – in fact I very much do not, but still I feel that it is very much worth to analyze what and how Eugenie thinks and how this thinking is beeing rendered into practical implementations. This is why I post his articles and in future I would offer some analyses and critiques of what Eugenie does.

http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=480
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=494
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=568
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=668
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=848
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1263
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=743
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1005
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1067
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1075
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1367

I did not do along with analyses and critiques at the Eugenie site. The site has an agenda – it a group of cronies who sell to each other audio and they do not what to have any decedents who do not kiss a few local leader in their asses.  I do not know what Eugenie position on the subject but the site is file with a few “leaders” that I really-really hate and I do not want to extend to them the privilege of my presence and my analyses.

Anyhow, here is the Eugenie’s playback and his thought about it.  Get patience, read it in translation and try to get what Eugenie is trying to say/do.  I feel that to cruise around the Eugenie’s mindset is a wonderful homework for audio people and you might eventually understand why I posted this thread in horn forum of my site.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zako
Posts 85
Joined on 05-25-2008

Post #: 2
Post ID: 13997
Reply to: 13996
Personal expierience
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would personally like to visit his installation,,,And witness the results...It would be an interesting expierence...            Maron
07-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 13998
Reply to: 13997
Of cause it would be fun to hear it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I do not know that guy but I can predict that it sounds fine, all 200 drivers, or wherever he uses. The point is to acknowledge what processes the system use and what is responsible for reportedly good sound. I do feel that what Eugenie attributers as reason for reportedly good sound are not the true reason and therefore the principal that Eugenie suggest is incorrect one.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 14051
Reply to: 13996
Eugenie’s installation: some lessons.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I see that Eugenie’s installation did not create in people to think about it, I think it is unfortunate.

Here are some important points of Eugenie’s installation:

1)      Use instead of good drivers a large amount of mediocre drivers. By doing this the exertion of each individual driver is substantially minimized and within a very limited mechanical exertion even poor drivers sound as much better drivers.

2)      Complete randominisation of time aliment. Eugenie is not juts misaligned driver but has 200 sources of mis-aliment in very unsystematic pattern.  What Eugenie done was created a sort of Phases Brownian Motion where the multiple stochastic errors of phases kill in listening awareness an ability to discriminate the leading edge of waves. I do not feel that it is right way to go but it is one of the way to mask phase anomalies.

3)      Fine-tuning the Melody range. Eugenie’s use many drivers (20 random drivers!!!!) and have sufficient sensitivity in Melody Range (100-600Hz). This allows him very prissily to tune his playback to the response of his given room in the Melody Range that shall give a very “loaded” and meaningful “size” of the presentation.

4)      Use my method of Insertion Channels, what he combined the background sound of multiple drivers that set “pedal-point effectiveness” with tonal Insertion from special chosen drivers. I have to note that in Eugenie’s case his Insertion shall have much less negative impact. In my case I have lobbying from second HF source. In Eugenie’s case he has many-many phase-random HF sources, so I guess the lobbying will take less part in his case.

… I do not have time not buy feel free to continue the list for yourself.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,071
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 14055
Reply to: 14051
Error Averaging
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, I seem to remember J. Peter Moncrieff doing something like this a couple of decades ago, and he eventually "explained" it much as you have just done.

I wonder if this approach is +/- doomed to a sort of "hazy" presentation, like the old Bose "bounce" approach.

At the same time, it might be nice for a lot of people to make the room and "specific" problems less of an issue.

Bob Fulton made his reputation (such as it was...) by asking very little (and so getting a lot) from his cheap-but-good-sounding-how-he-used-them drivers, and his big modular systems all used lots of drivers.

"Theoretically", this sort of multi-driver set-up might be biased to actually produce some LF, as well.

Best regards,
Paul S
07-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 14059
Reply to: 14055
Surly not my cap of tea.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Romy, I seem to remember J. Peter Moncrieff doing something like this a couple of decades ago, and he eventually "explained" it much as you have just done.

I wonder if this approach is +/- doomed to a sort of "hazy" presentation, like the old Bose "bounce" approach.

 Yes, it was done many times, not in the scale and the extreme that Eugenie does however.  I also do feel that it would have "cloudy" presentation; not to annoying but still well-detectable in comparing if the same effect was done with a limited high-quality dedicated drivers. This "addressing requirement by overcast the requirement" is not exactly my cap of tea. It reminds me like years back Allison speakers instead of dealing with time alignment overcastted the problem by injecting in the listening space a dose of signal in opposite polarity. Sort of: we can’t do it right, so let cloud environment in order the problem was not observable.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 7
Post ID: 14060
Reply to: 14051
Not actually randomization. . .
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

2)      Complete randominisation of time aliment. Eugenie is not juts misaligned driver but has 200 sources of mis-aliment in very unsystematic pattern.  What Eugenie done was created a sort of Phases Brownian Motion where the multiple stochastic errors of phases kill in listening awareness an ability to discriminate the leading edge of waves. I do not feel that it is right way to go but it is one of the way to mask phase anomalies.

The Cat



* The problem is more insidious because we are not actually dealing with complete randomization of time alignment.

Ignoring frequency, a simplified way of thinking about this is to assume that the wall has numerous identical drivers. Thus, timing from a listener's perspective becomes increasingly lagged as we move to speakers increasingly away (out/up/down) from the listener. So the "leading edge of waves" is easy to imagine transforming into a "smooth leading smear." 

In reality, what happening is that there are a limited number of drivers, each with its own spec and consequently in its own time domain. This would likely result in an even wider smear than in our simplified example. It would be also be a consistently "lumpy leading smear."

* Ignoring the time domain, adding "lots" of miscellaneous drivers is one potential way to smooth out frequency response at the micro level (although this has a similar randomization problem).

Of course combining time domain and frequency in the real world makes things a lot more complicated, fast. The wall might provide an intersting sound, but that could just be a result of lots of trial and error (law of large numbers).

Principally due to the time alignment problems, I would expect this wall to sound both sloppy and disjointed. . . but you never know!

07-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 14072
Reply to: 14060
About “Multifaceted Random Dipoles”.
fiogf49gjkf0d

The Multifaceted Random Dipoles – what the hell is it?

Well, this is what Eugenie’s uses, perhaps without realizing it. I do not know how Eugenie came to it. I presume that he was buying over the years the drivers on eBay and now he decided instead of trashing them to put them in use. Still, behind of what Eugenie did there is some interesting educational rational.

I call this eject “Multifaceted Random Dipoles” – which is purely pulled out of my ass name. A few years back I was visited a local friend of mine who just bought a bid Wilson. Walking across his room while his playback was playing I suddenly got flabbergasted. The sound in one specific point on the side of the room was nothing short of stunning, if not stunning but positively- different.  Upon further investigation I figured out that it for a first direct reflection from the left Wilson and a large glass window on the side of the room created combined with direct Wilson sound some kind of new “balanced” soundfield. 

Later on I did pick up the same effect a few times mode. It was always a specific balance of direct and first short-reflected sound at very specific mix. I was trying to mimic the effect using multiple drivers in free air configuration, turning the drivers and modifying bandwidth and volume. It was very difficult to get right configuration but sometimes I was able to catch “special” effect. The culmination of everything was when I was driving w divers and let them freely spin. I mean: to hand the drivers in the long wire, to twist the wire up and then let to wire to untwist, spinning the drivers with different speed. Using 4 wide band drivers and turning the volume and speed the effect was very interesting. I called it the “Multifaceted Random Dipoles” at that time and put the observation to back burners.

A couple years back ad guy from Switzerland contacted me and told about his idea of using directional reflectors that focus reflected sound back to ears. It was interesting and I supplemented his idea with a few rotatable reflecting reflectors. Eventually it has no practical use and end up to be at the same back burner.

Reading about Eugenie payback with 200 accidental drivers my old feeling about the “Multifaceted Random Dipoles” came back to me. I do feel that  partially the effect that  Eugenie get has the similar nature that I had with my above-described experiments.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
msaudio
Posts 45
Joined on 12-09-2009

Post #: 9
Post ID: 14074
Reply to: 13996
Class Project Gone Bad
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is sad that someone would build this or even pay for it. When You would listen to this you would only hear 1/3 of the drivers and the rest are useless because you would not hear them at the same level, they would be several db lower. This is what floradated water does to you.  The Mind Goes First.  Preaching Horn Religion  MSAUDIO
04-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 10
Post ID: 19187
Reply to: 13996
The sound of his system
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjirDOYSKpM
Eugenie and his philosophy of sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkSRklBehRU


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
04-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,071
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 11
Post ID: 19188
Reply to: 19187
To See All the Cones Stacked on the Shelves
fiogf49gjkf0d
may be to hear them in this case.  While there is actually some Tone, the whole does not seem to equal (let alone exceed) the sum of the parts.  Or, perhaps it does!  I would like to hear something more rigorous and complex than "the usual" music the DIYers use to "prove" a design/system.

Unusual TT!  Maybe someone else who speaks Russian overheard what he uses for a phono cartridge.  It sounded pretty mid-forward to me, like a 103, or something, and this seemed to be accentuated by the speakers.

If forced to live with one or the other (as opposed to being able to sell it), I'd take this over the beloved-by-reviewers Magico Q5.

Paul S
04-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 439
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 12
Post ID: 19189
Reply to: 19188
Sceleton plinth TT
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
I would like to hear something more rigorous and complex than "the usual" music the DIYers use to "prove" a design/system.


Was my thought too--"a girl with a banjo" audiopedophile(tm) crap.

 Paul S wrote:
Unusual TT!  Maybe someone else who speaks Russian overheard what he uses for a phono cartridge.  It sounded pretty mid-forward to me, like a 103, or something, and this seemed to be accentuated by the speakers.


Isn't this sth. like a Commonwealth 12D in a sceleton-type, point suspending plinth?
I didn't hear the whole video (too boring, sorry), but I did not detect any talks on the
"zvukoebatel" (a paraphrase on the russian "zvukosnimatiel"=tonabnehmer)



Cheers,
Jarek
04-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 19190
Reply to: 19187
You never know…
fiogf49gjkf0d

A wonderful post, haralanov, thanks you for posting it. It is pleasant to see that the person does not recite the idiocy that he heard from others but express his own thinking. I happen to disagreed with his approach. I do understand that driving 200 drivers he minimizes the minimal current that used on each voice coil and dramatically lower exertion of each driver and driver’s mechanical distortions. There is however so much more to it. Saying this I never heard   an attempt to use 200 drivers and I do not know what he is getting. It is impossible to say anything from video and the music he played was also not too stimulating.  I for sure would meet him and would be interested to hear the result. My  uninformed prediction is that it shall not be too stimulating but you never know where you find and where you loose…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 439
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 14
Post ID: 19191
Reply to: 19187
2nd video
fiogf49gjkf0d
I didn't make it to the 2nd video before and it's indeed interesting.
Esp. how he describes the result of his trick: "addition of HF transforming into more air and resolution in the MF instead of more glow at the top"
(around 2:30 at the video). It's somethig I'm fighting with in my context now.




Cheers,
Jarek
04-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 15
Post ID: 19193
Reply to: 19191
A phase dither?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 N-set wrote:
I didn't make it to the 2nd video before and it's indeed interesting.
Esp. how he describes the result of his trick: "addition of HF transforming into more air and resolution in the MF instead of more glow at the top"
(around 2:30 at the video). It's somethig I'm fighting with in my context now.

This guy does not say anything new. It is just a reiteration of the notion that has been pitching for years: HF shall not be reproduced by efforts of HF channel but by via transient capacity of MF channel.  The question is HOW we doing it.  I use compression drivers as I feel they have minimum excursion and max sensitivity to minimum currents.  He drives 200 drivers and get very high low current sensitivity and practically no excursion from each drivers, setting each driver to very optimum magnetic and mechanical configuration. His way however in my view creates absolutely absurd lobbing, comb filtration and many other problems. If he run a pulse response across his 200 drivers it will be nightmare, I down that you even see the pulse.  There is an interesting moment in what he does however. If he has 20 drivers then I would say that it was damn but he runs 200 drivers and they are not in array and not organized in any inelegant way. They are just randomly thrown and I am not even sure if he set them to run in phase. So, it is “possible” that with that bizarre amount of drivers the system sort of randomizes the phase errors and act as some kind of phase dither. His pulse in that case would be a pulse cloud and it “might” be interesting. It is hard to say anything as I never heard that indiscriminately set 200 drivers and the results they might produces.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-09-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 19198
Reply to: 19193
Some more...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, as I suspected it is not 200 drivers but 14. He has perhaps 200 driver at his storage abut they looks like do not work all together. The way how his 14 drivers work is foolishness. I still like this guy, even though I do not feel that his direction is rewarding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nMbiHfMz5M

There is something else that I would like to pay attention. The guy at this video listening some accordion music that is suitable for dentist office’s foye and he say that this is type of music that he can listening for hours. This kind of scary and this is not about taste or personal preferences. It is unarguable in my view that quality of any playback can you be determined by how fast and how deep a listener might migrate in his listening preferences from anything to Bach and Buchner. The listening interests what this Russian guy demonstrated does not suggest that his idea of multi-drivers is worthy.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  How to USE “Resonating Oops” in loudspeakers..  Am Besten?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     179  845963  02-28-2007
  »  New  A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther..  A new reiteration of the Moscow setup....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  192792  02-27-2011
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