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12-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 12456
Reply to: 12456
Is better than Kinetic Systems’ Vibraplane?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Thos who use air-suspended platform of large mass (like Vibraplane) under turntable know that they work very nice. Now there is a new idea – to use the no air, ”active” suspension:

http://www.techmfg.com/products/tabletop/tabletop_pzt.htm

I have no idea how the work but it might be interesting. The company is local, near Boston.

This is why I think it might be interesting. As you see it has a PC port and I presume that that it might be tuned form PC. If so, then would it possible to use an intentional angle of the platform with a TT in real-time in order to introduce the gravitational offset for …. the anti-scatting? If so then PC would monitor the fact that a tonearm read the end of a record and angular speed is faster and angle the platform sharper?

It is a bit too radical but I do not think way  it would not work…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 12457
Reply to: 12456
My 2 Hz are better than your 2 Hz
fiogf49gjkf0d
There are a few manufacturers out there, Minus-K, Halcyonics, Vibraplane...The Vibraplane is a good unit for the money, I have no problems with it and it does the job the way it should.Those Vibration units work different from construction and are very different from price.When you look at the data sheets, you see, that they have different Hz range with different weight. A reason why I added some more mass to my Micro which is sitting on a VP.There was a discussion in Forums about those units in general and real Audiophiles think, there is a war between active/passive devices and those expensive ones work better than cheap ones ("My 2 Hz work better than your 2 Hz...")Using such a device below a turntable (for example) is definitely an advantage. The VP does not only eliminate the vibrations on top, influences via Air or floor are also eliminated. I can easily check it, when my cartridge needle is in the groove, Preamp is 50% and I make tocs with a pencil onto the rack, the turntable chassis,the platter, onto the record...Without such a device I can hear very loud "tocs", specially when done close to the needle, with the working VP it is gone totally and very close at the needle it is soft.It is cheaper than a cable, I guess, that is one reason why the typical audio Moron does nor jump for it (and the next is, he does not understand it anyway)


Kind Regards
Stitch
12-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 12462
Reply to: 12457
The missed war of active vs. passive isolation
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Stitch wrote:
When you look at the data sheets, you see, that they have different Hz range with different weight. A reason why I added some more mass to my Micro which is sitting on a VP.

Actually it is not my observation. In my experiments what I concluded was that not only mass is factor but the distance between the legs – a larger unit, with legs located further apart work better. I did equalize the masses of small and large units accordingly. Also, the air pressure in the pneumatic legs has some intricate relation with mass.

 Stitch wrote:
There was a discussion in Forums about those units in general and real Audiophiles think, there is a war between active/passive devices and those expensive ones work better than cheap ones ("My 2 Hz work better than your 2 Hz...") 

How, did I miss it? A war without me? I feel violated! In fact, I never heard anybody mention the active devices before. I also have no understanding what principle they use. My interest in active devices, if they work, would be to use them creatively. For instance I would to have very light TT on active devise and to inject …. dither from such an active platform. You what we have vibrations then we recognize them as negative because they have harmonic stricture that we can distinct. How about if a such “active Vibraplane” would inject a totally random vibration, sort of equivalent of “white noise” or the dither in its original meaning:

“…one of the earliest [applications] of dither came in World War II. Airplane bombers used mechanical computers to perform navigation and bomb trajectory calculations. Curiously, these computers (boxes filled with hundreds of gears and cogs) performed more accurately when flying on board the aircraft, and less well on ground. Engineers realized that the vibration from the aircraft reduced the error from sticky moving parts. Instead of moving in short jerks, they moved more continuously. Small vibrating motors were built into the computers, and their vibration was called dither from the Middle English verb "didderen," meaning "to tremble." Today, when you tap a mechanical meter to increase its accuracy, you are applying dither, and modern dictionaries define dither as a highly nervous, confused, or agitated state. In minute quantities, dither successfully makes a digitization system a little more analog in the good sense of the word.” – wikipedia.

 Stitch wrote:
Using such a device below a turntable (for example) is definitely an advantage. The VP does not only eliminate the vibrations on top, influences via Air or floor are also eliminated. I can easily check it, when my cartridge needle is in the groove, Preamp is 50% and I make tocs with a pencil onto the rack, the turntable chassis,the platter, onto the record...Without such a device I can hear very loud "tocs", specially when done close to the needle, with the working VP it is gone totally and very close at the needle it is soft.It is cheaper than a cable, I guess, that is one reason why the typical audio Moron does nor jump for it (and the next is, he does not understand it anyway)

What you describe is what Vibraplan does, right? What advantage you feel an active devise has if you use them?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 12463
Reply to: 12462
Very rare in High End Equipment
fiogf49gjkf0d
I thought, it would be for you :-) but I think, it is (or was) below your level...

The discussion was about a German Raven Turntable and what next Turntable should be chosen when the owner don't want to have it anymore....  ... in that discussion you found everything from your Grandmother to the 3. World War and there was a point about Turntable Design in general ...with some posts from a few who use such Devices (or similar)...When I did understand it correctly, the active vibraplane is filled with a compressor, when the pressure in the feet go down, the compressor starts automaticallyto fill them up. The passive hold the air and when you do a change on the platform you have to pump it up again. No big difference for me.Minus-K is mechanical from what I read, so no air, but it is limited in size and loading. The other ones are working with mains but based on minor information I don't know their results. The Halcyonics for example is about 8000 euros when I remember right (size useable for a Turntable).I remember a conversation from MylesB Astor, he was in a office from one of these manufacturers years ago and asked him to think about a production for High End customers. They threw him out. They do serious research.... some time later SOS made a connection to them, but I think, it is still ordered via hospitals....

Seiki 5000.jpg




Kind Regards
Stitch
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