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05-08-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 10467
Reply to: 10467
Another electromagnet driver: Great Vintage Loudspeakers.
fiogf49gjkf0d

This time from Germany and this time the pattern is very much the similar to the patterns of any other company that sell electromagnet fro Hi-Fi: the semi-idiotic statements-claims meant to impress uninformed peoples and no credible claims about sonic characteristics, or no even implication that the people behind the company has any advanced demands in Sound. The company is Great Vintage Loudspeakers

http://greatvintageloudspeakers.com/

and it looks like they sell direct via Ebay, which is perfectly fine in my books. Still, if a company sells via dealers then it is assumed that all information is possible to get from a dealer. (I know that in reality dealers have no idea how to spell the product name but I said: “assumed”). In case of company deals direct I would like to have on the site more information, I hope the Great Vintage Loudspeakers will do it.

The Art Déco spacers of the company made by a carpenter I pretty much discard and the subject of my interest are only the electromagnet compression drivers or as they call it field-coil drivers

http://www.greatvintageloudspeakers.com/components/

The A594WVL looks like a MF driver. For whatever reason they claim that it is a replica of Western Electric WE594. That is foolish. First of all what is shown in the picture is an indication that it is not replica of WE594. Why they mention the Western Electric, to impress the Morons? That is sad and do not help with evaluation of the seriousness of the peoples who did it.  Also, the Western Electric designs were NOT the optimum designs and it they just “replicated” the WE then they have no idea what they do.

I am not pleased to see phenolic diaphragms in there: the electromagnet with phenolic cone? Come on! That is like a turtle with step-down transmission! The aluminum cone sound interning and their promise of Mylar suspension is VERY interesting. The fact that they have those options is a good sign.

http://www.greatvintageloudspeakers.com/components/a594wvl/a594wvl_ffff.html
The image is correctly to the manufacturer.

I still would like to see the layout of the cone vs. suspension, know the size of the cone, type of phase plug, loading methods and many other parameters to be able to see what they do.

I am glad that they stay with moderate flux density and do not write what other idiots claimed: “our filed coil drivers allow having flux density unreachable by perm magnates.”  Still I am not at ease with the comments like this: “ …  this driver induces 1.59 Tesla in his gigantic magnetic gap…” Where the gigantic magnetic gap comes from in compression drivers? All compression drivers are underhang by nature with no exertion and if the gap is “gigantic” then it is too wide.  The widening of gap is VERY controversial subject in compression drivers and I am not comfortable with it. Are they cooling the coil this way? Do they have problem with overly soft and “loose” suspension? Do they have some benefits with low level signals with extra wide gap?  The electromagnetic flax is not “scrappy” at low levels by nature with permeability look likes dropping faster then with perm magnet. The wide gap would be another “brick in the wall” of worsening the effect, not to mention the heat up the whole driver for unnecessary purpose.

The driver has throat diameter 49 mm, which is 1.929 inches…. Hm… are they kidding? Why not the 50.8mm that would make the standard 2”. That is a mystery to me.

Another comment that they made me do not feel good: “… the magnetic field can be adjusted to your needs respectively to match your woofer and crossover specifications exactly. “ OK, let me say 125 times and for good: the magnetic force of electromagnet driver might NOT be adjusted and particularly in respect to “match woofer and crossover”. Change current across electromagnet changes flux density that impact each and single T/S characteristic of the driver. I am not saying that it would be better of worse but I say he then whole idea of using the specific diaphragm, with specific suspension, with specific loading and with specific damping pattern has any sense ONLY at the very specific flux density. You wish to change the flux density – fine, then redesign the whole driver.  I have seen idiot, who BTW was very celebrated industry reviewer, who wrote that a system with field coil drivers might have a volume control by the mean of flux alternation. I think making public comments like this is a fireable offence but he is the “industry reviewer” – what can you get from him – his title is a diagnose itself… Anyhow, the electromagnet drivers must be sold with very specific very narrow gap of flux density (let say +/_ 0.2T) and the performance of the driver shall be quarantined ONLY at this default flux. I do not want to hear from a manufacture that I even can change flux. If the manufactures even open mouth abbot it then I do not want to hear from the manufacture and the driver they sell is not properly designed.

The Great Vintage Loudspeakers Company has also woofers, duplex drivers (something that I do not like at all). They have a tweeter:

http://www.greatvintageloudspeakers.com/components/a284wvl/

It is field-coil too, but since I do not like the notion of horn tweeters I would move over.

Anyhow, it looks like the Great Vintage Loudspeakers driver are a new player and who knows what they do. The MF driver looks interesting. I never heard them; if anyone did them share your thoughts. The drivers look like 1.8K, it is not clear if it is for a driver or for a pair…


http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/chlorophyllin

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Nagrapex
Posts 1
Joined on 05-20-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 10545
Reply to: 10467
Great Vintage Loudspeakers drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
These are clearly JBL pots and back covers (which have been milled flat). The refinishing job is quite nice, but the origins are clear. Also, the phenolic diaphragm is clearly for the 2482/2485 (and looks like a JBL part), which has a slightly wider gap than that of the very similar aluminum diaphragm 2440/2441. The 2482 is cheaper on the used market and will accept the 2440/2441 aluminum diaphragm, so I would guess that 2482's are the starting point. I am willing to bet that the original phase plug has been retained. I think it would be prohibitively expensive to build this at $1,800 per driver.

The 2440 is the pro version of the 375, which was designed to be a permanent magnet version of the 594A. The throat, phase plug, gap geometry, flux density may not be exactly the same as a 594A, but they should be fairly close.

Jonathan
05-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 10547
Reply to: 10545
"These are clearly JBL putzs..."
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, Jonathan,

I have seen this resemblance with JBL in the shape of the back plate but it does not mean anything. The curved back magnetic path make a lot of sense, so he might adopt it from JBL. There is nothing wrong with it.

I do not know what this guy did in this driver. He sent me email stating that I have no knowledge about the field-coil drivers design. Good for me. I hope he does.  What distract me in all of this that all those people is their confidence in own supremacy but this confidence does not based upon any sonic or artistic claim but rather upon self -affiliation with some kind of pre-developed hype or hideous kitsch. I do not make this accusation about this German guy who make those compression drivers – I do not know what he does but the patters is sound too recognizable. I hope I am mistaken.

A few month ago the clown Joe Roberts popped up at this site and was selling an idea of a new Korean loudspeaker by affiliating what those Korean guy do with WE and Mirrophonic.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=9376

he was drooling with bitten up stupid audio metaphors but a single look at this WE installation from a perspective of a person who have more or less noble reference points would clearly indicate HOW this  installation sounds.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=10509

Another example is that retard from Pennsylvania from Oswald Mill. He piles up stories about RCA of 30s but the actual sound he is getting is sub acceptable and has so many very elemental mistakes that it kind of even shame to comment about it. It is not even about Sound they get and the sound they do not understand but the objectives of those people actions. The Oswald Mill guy is idiot in his audio objective, an idiot in his musical objective and all that he does is just mitigation of damage from people who know him and who have discovered that it is an empty place. Can you blame RCA installation that is does shit in Oswald Mill’s hands?

Well, as in anything else audio is very little about “iron” but more about people and I would very much be incline to pay attention to the statements of people values instead of the moronic the statements  that “we copy this technology from WE, from RCA, from Bell Labs, from Marconi, or from Klangfilm”. As I always say “any technology in the hands of barbarians will produce a barbarian results” and unfortunately too many of the cretins in “vintage audio” prove the point…

I do not know how it all applicable to that Christine Von Langa. It might be not and his driver might be interesting. However, then will be interesting NOT because or instead they are JBL or WE replica but because other reasons. I hope they shut a fuck up their endless drooling about replication of vitals technology. Not to mention that any single “replicator” that I have see NEVER made anything performing identically to vintage results. Different but not the same, if so then what is the difference what the design was taken from?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 4
Post ID: 10548
Reply to: 10467
Info
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

The drivers look like 1.8K, it is not clear if it is for a driver or for a pair…



Price is per driver.
05-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 10549
Reply to: 10548
Whos diaphragms they use?
fiogf49gjkf0d
The $3.6K per pair, if they are good divers - the 2440 level, is a tolerable price for custom-made drivers. I presume that he does not include and PS into the price. My major question would not be about the drivers – the filed-coils are very simple drivers and I presume that he know what he does then he did not make any obvious blinders. What I'm very interested is whose diaphragms he uses. With the volumes he sells I do not think he makes own cones. You see, he does not have just one diaphragm (like anyone else in the filed-coil word) but he offers a variety of them, including the right solution for filed-coils: the hard-suspended aluminum, as the electromagnets are too soft naturally. If he does them himself then it is very-very good for him but most likely he adopts someone’s else cones. That MF driver with  hard-suspended metal might be not un-interesting, who knows? I am not on the market for compression drivers (I need to start to sell my collection sometimes) but I would listen this German driver if it came near me.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 6
Post ID: 10605
Reply to: 10467
We make feildcoil drivers !!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Check out are field coil drivers and the blab it shows pics of the bass drivers as i build them you may fined it fun!! i always like you insight + field coils are easier to build these days that is why most of use do it and they sound nice.

http://www.electronluv.com/
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 10606
Reply to: 10605
The Electronluv drivers...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Electronluv,

As I understand you were a few years out of audio business and it looks like you are back, nice to see.

I saw at your site just MF compression drivers not the bass drivers. Anyhow, I have a few questions to ask. You use beryllium diaphragms with Mylar suspension – is it your production or you use some kind off the shelf cones? Your drivers are with 3.25” exit - is any rational for this diameters beside to get more HF extension? And the last question: you say that you have perfected your diver, might I ask you what is in your view the key for this perfection? I do not ask details about your know-how but rather about your general perfection objectives and the general perfection methods?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 8
Post ID: 10610
Reply to: 10606
Electronluv
fiogf49gjkf0d
electronluv do's not have the ability to make beryllium diaphragms or the legal stuff to even buy raw beryllium i bet with a little surfing you may find the companys diaphragms i use .
Yes 3.25" is to help get beter HF extension but to also get a very smooth sound from 200hz to 20k.

Perfection was in designing a good motor and machining different phase plug in till i like the sound i was getting my drivers are a mid flux drivers 1.8t i think the world needs more drivers with different stlye phase plug it is sad that so many companys use the phase plugs that they do just like the ones your mid drivers use i have never really like the sound of drivers with that style phase plug, at least my company is trying different things with speaker drivers they are the heart of a system.  if you check out the blab there is stuff about bass drivers.

The Josh
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 9
Post ID: 10611
Reply to: 10606
Electronluv drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
electronluv do's not have the ability to make beryllium diaphragms or the legal stuff to even buy raw beryllium i bet with a little surfing you may find the companys diaphragms i use .
Yes 3.25" is to help get beter HF extension but to also get a very smooth sound from 200hz to 20k.

Perfection was in designing a good motor and machining different phase plug in till i like the sound i was getting my drivers are a mid flux drivers 1.8t i think the world needs more drivers with different stlye phase plug it is sad that so many companys use the phase plugs that they do just like the ones your mid drivers use i have never really like the sound of drivers with that style phase plug, at least my company is trying different things with speaker drivers they are the heart of a system.  if you check out the blab there is stuff about bass drivers.

The Josh
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 10614
Reply to: 10610
The “wide bandwidth” drivers.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I do not look for beryllium diaphragms, I just was wondering if someone has succeeded to manufacture them in “basement conditions”. As I understand it shall be VERY difficult.

Well, your driver might be interesting. If I was able to accommodate 3.25" hole than I would propose to exchange your driver and my S2 for a few weeks to see how they work but afraid that I will not be able to mount 3.25" properly. Also you have 3.25" exit and 3” diaphragm… you know what I mean…

This driver that you describe is what you call “wide bandwidth” driver. I am not a big fan of the wide bandwidth horn channels; in fact I believe the idea itself is faulty. Are you planning to make “narrow bandwidth” drivers? It might be interesting if you apply your know-how for dedicated MF and upperbass compression drivers. Also, are you just making them for yourself of you are planning to sell them? If the later then what is the target price for them?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 11
Post ID: 10615
Reply to: 10614
Wideband drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
When you get a horn that will work i will trade for a couple weeks!
I don't think wide band drivers are the ideal way to do things but the most cost effective way to injoy good sound i would like to make another pair to  crossover  from 3k to 10k.some day i will have some more made up that i can try i would like to get smaller beryllium diaphragms if they were made to make tweeter with!!As for midbass drivers i have built me a pair that used ALE 160 diaphragms with good resolves!!  i im slowly working on how to make midbass compression driver diaphragmsin the next half a year i will have tooling to make diaphragms out of titanium , the sad thing about compression mid bass drivers is there is now market for them they always take big horns to work right. 
Yes i will make wideband driver for  $5,600 for a pair with power supply and adaptors and cables if someone wants my horns they are another $2,500 for a pair.   
The josh 


05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 10623
Reply to: 10615
Higher impedance lading with field-coils
fiogf49gjkf0d

Josh,

I see, for a time being you target your driver to use with your horns. That is fine. BTW, did you come across to an observation that you tend to load your anodes that drive the field-coil drivers idler than when the same anode drive perm magnet drivers? I mean do tend to use higher impedance lading with field-coils?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 13
Post ID: 10624
Reply to: 10623
High impedance tubes
fiogf49gjkf0d
are you asking if i like higher impedance tubes with my drivers  i  have always love the sound of imac tubes round plate triodes !!! i change amps alot right now i im running 75tl amp for highs and a 300B for bass drivers . i hope this answers your question.
The josh 
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 10625
Reply to: 10624
The magnets and loading.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 electronluv wrote:
are you asking if i like higher impedance tubes with my drivers  i  have always love the sound of imac tubes round plate triodes !!! i change amps alot right now i im running 75tl amp for highs and a 300B for bass drivers . i hope this answers your question.
The josh 

Nope, it was not what I asked. I was curious if you observed that if the same tube is loaded to a fixed magnet driver and an electromagnet driver  of the same impedance then the electromagnet drivers you tend to use with higher transformer ratio, or to load the tube harder to a fixed magnet driver.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 15
Post ID: 10644
Reply to: 10625
Electronluv tube load
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have not tried  different loads for the different driver magnets but i also have not played with fix magnets for a will.
one thing is changing load to the tube really only makes a big difference in the bass regions on a mid driver the load may change distortion but when you are running a 108 DB driver the amp never really needs more then a watt, distortion is always so low at that point any way.

The josh
05-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 10645
Reply to: 10644
I disagree about the loading, and particularly the electromagnets…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 electronluv wrote:
I have not tried  different loads for the different driver magnets but i also have not played with fix magnets for a will.
one thing is changing load to the tube really only makes a big difference in the bass regions on a mid driver the load may change distortion but when you are running a 108 DB driver the amp never really needs more then a watt, distortion is always so low at that point any way.

The change of tube loading does not affect only bass but it rather changes the whole sound of the tube.  People frequently talk that a higher loading has lower distortions but I do not thing that is has anything to do with distortions. The key in here is that harmonics that are changed with lording – higher loading get “shorter” harmonics, and less idle load has more “fatter” harmonics.  My experiments with electromagnets suggested that they are a bit on the softer side then better perm magnets, therefore if I run electromagnets then I would most likely load the tube lighter with field-coils drivers.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 17
Post ID: 10653
Reply to: 10645
Harmonic distortion vs harmonics vs distortion vs wtf?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:


People frequently talk that a higher loading has lower distortions but I do not thing that is has anything to do with distortions. The key in here is that harmonics that are changed with lording – higher loading get “shorter” harmonics, and less idle load has more “fatter” harmonics.  My experiments with electromagnets suggested that they are a bit on the softer side then better perm magnets, therefore if I run electromagnets then I would most likely load the tube lighter with field-coils drivers.

The caT


What is the difference between "distortion," and "harmonics?"
--what I'm asking is what you are defining as "distortion" and as "harmonics" in this context. 

Yes, I know as in how a sinewave of a note contains no harmonics, but when near saturation and clipped, harmonics are created.  
And how these are related acoustically, as the harmonics of a vibrating string are musically related to the note's fundamental frequency-
e.g. the second order harmonic = adds the octave; third order adds the fifth, etc, etc... is what is sometimes called harmonic distortion... 

I don't understand what you're saying that you do not think tube loading has anything to do with distortions...
...but that harmonics get "shorter" Vs "fatter"... 

I'm not sure where i'm getting lost
Are you talking about being able to reproduce harmonics (from the original source)? 
Or the harmonics produced by the amp, and/or driver?

The robert
05-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 10654
Reply to: 10653
An excellent question!
fiogf49gjkf0d

 serenechaos wrote:

What is the difference between "distortion," and "harmonics?"
--what I'm asking is what you are defining as "distortion" and as "harmonics" in this context. 

Yes, I know as in how a sinewave of a note contains no harmonics, but when near saturation and clipped, harmonics are created. 
And how these are related acoustically, as the harmonics of a vibrating string are musically related to the note's fundamental frequency-
e.g. the second order harmonic = adds the octave; third order adds the fifth, etc, etc... is what is sometimes called harmonic distortion... 

I don't understand what you're saying that you do not think tube loading has anything to do with distortions...
...but that harmonics get "shorter" Vs "fatter"... 

I'm not sure where i'm getting lost
Are you talking about being able to reproduce harmonics (from the original source)? 
Or the harmonics produced by the amp, and/or driver?


An excellent question, Robert! I wish I know the true answer.

The higher amount of harmonics implies higher distortions. The higher amount of harmonics means more power the on own turn get transferred to higher distortions. However, I am not accustomed to operate by the means of distortions. There are many reasons why and one of the major one is because distortions viewed as a subtraction of output to input but I do not feel that it is useful for interpretation parameter. No the last factor is the fact the chance of logging impact the harmonics without any reference to what was at input. So, if with the change of loading the ratio between the second and third harmonics changed, the sound changed then does it mean that the distortions become less or more? Harmonics have reference to auditable, the distortions is not necessary have it at least I am not accustomed to handle it and therefore I dispose of their importance.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  Vitavox S2 with Electromagnets..  Cutter Head/Servo...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     91  764696  01-12-2006
  »  New  Western Electric reproduces 0Hz + some literature…..  Re-set...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  35984  07-24-2006
  »  New  Maxonic drivers from Japan..  Large midwoofers...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  61429  06-14-2007
  »  New  About cost of electromagnetic drivers...  About cost of electromagnetic drivers....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  16486  07-08-2007
  »  New  Cogent+Electronluv+Acapella=Wretched What?..  The Cogent architectural problem or the Cogent++...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  55393  09-04-2007
  »  New  The jump-start of loudspeaker economy..  Yep, you are right: the Grande Utopia...  Audio News Forum     17  115501  03-19-2008
  »  New  Electronluv systems questions and perhaps answers..  Electron Luv Compression Drivers...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  74238  12-27-2007
  »  New  The African compression electromagnet drivers?..  OK. Thanks....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     42  248018  08-17-2009
  »  New  Bookshelf Horns..  How the menacingly-empty idiots design audio....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  31351  03-17-2010
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