| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Playback Listening » My playback’s sound vs. Live sound. (8 posts, 1 page)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 1 of 1 (8 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Audio and Music: four levels of unity and separation or..  Absolute and mandatory condition....  Playback Listening  Forum     9  52830  11-09-2004
  »  New  High End Audio and musical content...  Design decisions for different music....  Playback Listening  Forum     8  39826  06-01-2006
  »  New  A playback and wrong notes...  Why is it not common practice?...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  30489  03-12-2007
  »  New  Playback and Perception vs. Chicken and Egg..  Re: "...behind good Sound from playback......  Playback Listening  Forum     1  11762  05-16-2008
  »  New  About the Playbacks’ Thinkability...  The right stuff...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  22644  01-30-2009
03-28-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 10106
Reply to: 10106
My playback’s sound vs. Live sound.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I have been thinking recently about the subject of my playback’s sound vs. Live sound and I have to tell you that those thoughts are much more complicated than one might expect. Under normal circumstances it would be foolishness to talk seriously about comparing between live Sound and reproduced sound. But it is ONLY if we compare sound as a factual property of sound reproduction. If however we look at Sound not as factual element but as a creative force that was made not as a self-contained goal but rather was made for sake of precise higher purpose then the view might be different.

Without going into unnecessary-long preamble I would say that I do feel that lately  the Sound I get from my playback is more “interesting” then the sound I get from events. I heard those comments before from various people under different circumstances and I always suspected that they were idiots. Deeper familiarity with them proved that I was very accurate – the people who made those comments were either too primitive in their objective either too lightweight in their reference points. However, the most remarkable in my ridicules statement about playback vs. Live sound is that I neither idiot nor have too insignificant reference points. Let me to explain my view.

Unquestionably the sound that I get from my playback is VERY far from sound of live events. But my playback renders intend of recorded music with much higher amplitude then live events. To a degree it is not about my playback abut rather about the ability of playbacks to re-render the event or to replay the event, exposing the indented of performance in well controlled environment of listening room. It like a watching a tennis player do a serve in a slow motion – everything is there is well-depicted for understanding.  With my playback played, and I primary refer to LIVE FM broadcast and the broadcast’s recordings (95% of my listening nowadays), the expressive exploits are right in your face, and vehement pressure of playback rises much fasted then acoustic pressure. I am not taking about the “attention to details” – I will live that BS to the kindergarten level of audio reviewers – but I rather taking about the whole compiled presentation of Sound that in my view is more “critical” and more decisive via playback.

When I listen some BSO play that I found was interesting and introduce some new twist in this or that moments I always try to re-listen this recording of the fragment and I very frequently discover “other” things that escaped my attention during the live event. The Live Sound if it was played properly is all about submission of own ego to the external superior force. The played back Sound is about not submission but cooperation and rivalry between the superior force and own character of a listener. By matching up the came from outside with the brewed inside some very interesting things usually grow up…

So, I think this makes playback Sound “better” then live sound. It might not grab us by testiculars in the way how live sound does but it gives a lot of room for thinking about sound/music and it gives to us a phenomenal opportunity to control our listening.  Couple month back two separate local guys come to my room and I played to them fragments of my BSO FM recordings. One guy commented that “you never get THIS in Symphony Hole”. Another suddenly after 30 years of BSO listening begin to note in the sound of my playback some wonderful performing elements that he did not acknowledge in BSO live. I have a very same feeling. Live sound make you witness of the event. A properly reproduced playback makes a listener a participant of the event, not just ideal participant but rather as person responsible for the outcome of listening ceremony. Here is where my playback destroys most of the live events, unless you do your listening from a conducting podium…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 17790
Reply to: 10106
Opera last night
fiogf49gjkf0d
Puccini il trittico live in lyon 1st balcony center vs. Shelter 901 through three-way horn-loaded speakers in myExperience room!
Looking back through romy's earlier posts in effort to reconcile live experience last night with what I have at home!
I wanted to write a post about the absolute tone as ultimate playback criteria, but romy has me thinking differently. Really there is no need to compare the sound between the two "events" .  I will take what i liked about the live performance nd see if I can add to my home playback as I see that is missing. Notably the resonance and graininess of wood and horns that are much richer than the somewhat clear bell sound i have.
But there are artifacts of my home system that i appreciate more, the lyon opera is too dry, the tympany and double-bass do not extend into space properly, the bass is not launched properly, whereas at home with live FM or very good LP it is the fundamental element of the "performance".
Leaving these comparisons aside, I know have to decide if my home system is giving me what i want, and unfortunately the answer is maybe 20% of the time, depending upon source material.  Not a bad start.
The difficult part is tryning to figure out what to change for desired result.  What do i change or modify to have softer sounding violins? Tracking force, cables step-up, amplifier etc etc! How do i bring forward the cellos in symphony fantastique without making my double-bass bloated...




02-04-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,056
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 3
Post ID: 17791
Reply to: 17790
Canary in the Coal Mine
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rony, you do not specifically say that you use horns to reproduce violins, but if you do then you have your work cut out for you.  Moving upstream, massed violins are T-O-U-G-H to get right, under any circumstances.  Very few front ends make good on this sound, and it's usually all down hill from there.  If your cartridge will do violins properly, it might well take careful adjustment initially and subsequent VTA/SRA adjustment based on record thickness, as I described in the "Vinyl Ceremonies" thread,  "At Last, Repeatable VTA".  Like the canary in the coal mine, any problems with with the system will promptly kill this effect.

As for cellos, their harmonics are well above the bass viols, well into mid-range.  Broadly speaking, to "bring forward the cellos" requires that those frequencies get more energy.  However, it also requires articulation at these frequencies, to suggest the cello's tone, harmonics and overall "voice".

As for the sound of a given opera house, be glad for good seats, a good performance, and no "reinforcement"!  BTW,a good conductor "adjusts" for "house sound"...


Best regards.
Paul S
02-06-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 17792
Reply to: 17791
T-O-U-G-H
fiogf49gjkf0d
Why is it that the strings, especially the massed violins are so difficult.  It's like romy always says a reviewer that only listens to jazz or rock really isn't going to be trustworthy.  
02-06-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 17793
Reply to: 17792
Massed of strings.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 RonyWeissman wrote:
Why is it that the strings, especially the massed violins are so difficult.
This is a  complex question. In the reproduction of massed of strings, particularly when they come along with woodwinds, involved so many variables. Usually audio has no problems to do it but then there is question at witch level you would accepts the result as “acceptable”. The strings sound is not just a definition by itself but it is a whole world with zillion characteristics HOW those strings might sound.

As soon one get that “just strings sound” is not enough and want to do something custom in his/her strings sound (or in other words to re-format this strings sound to have slightly different character then “it is”) all hell breaks loose. In particularly it is difficult for horn people as compressions drivers are a bit problematic to handle the massed of strings.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-06-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 17794
Reply to: 17793
String sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
I feel like i want a line array of lowThers with random graininess applied to their paper membrane as my oops channel! I would want the strings to have the texture of aged beef when it is cooked "aller/retour" (french alwys use food metaphors.).
Seriously i have heard once the string sound that was close to what i want but all other aspects ofnthe sound where as exciting as the mcdonalds (duevel).
02-07-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 17795
Reply to: 17794
The texture of the strings.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The texture of the strings is a huge subject. Audio has so much control over it! it would probably worth to have a new dedicated thread that would map the audio efforts to the expressionism of different group instruments, separate do string, upper and lower woodwinds, percussion instrument and etc.

It is need to be understood however that he most sophisticated texture of the strings possible to be archived in audio is not the most sophisticated way to go. The key is in adaptively of texture and an ability of playback to handle a wide range of string textural expressions and each of the textural expression need to have max expressive amplitude possible. It is similar to my definition of Absolute Tone that very few people understand: it is not how colorful playback plays but how colorful it might play if music called upon one or another, even opposite, colors.  With string texture it is very much the same. You want to have as much string bite as possible but do not want to rapture the harmonics of fundamental pitch and you do not want to overly excite the smooth passages of string playing.

BTW, Rony, I am not sure what you use but I think in past you used Vitavox S2 driver. The S2 is blessing and curse of strings texture. Some things that S2 does is impossible to get from any other driver and some things are very ugly with S2. It requires a LOT to make S2 to operate more or less interestingly from strings texture perspective.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 17806
Reply to: 17795
String bite
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,  i used S2 for about last ten years and recently gave up on them, i don't have the skills to get the soundI want out of them.  They were giving me lots of string bite, but not the fat wood sound, they were closer with old multicell horns than my lecleach flares curiously enough.  I miss them when i listen to mozart clarinet, i am now getting spit whereas with the s2s it was rich and very expressive. Ou are right there should be a thread for instruments and their best suited drivers.

Page 1 of 1 (8 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Audio and Music: four levels of unity and separation or..  Absolute and mandatory condition....  Playback Listening  Forum     9  52830  11-09-2004
  »  New  High End Audio and musical content...  Design decisions for different music....  Playback Listening  Forum     8  39826  06-01-2006
  »  New  A playback and wrong notes...  Why is it not common practice?...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  30489  03-12-2007
  »  New  Playback and Perception vs. Chicken and Egg..  Re: "...behind good Sound from playback......  Playback Listening  Forum     1  11762  05-16-2008
  »  New  About the Playbacks’ Thinkability...  The right stuff...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  22644  01-30-2009
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts