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12-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 621
Post ID: 15113
Reply to: 15046
Comments on PurePower PP2000 December events.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I would like to shade light about what is doing on with PurePower PP2000. I know that the readers of my site have own brain, at least some of them, and they do not need me or anybody else to “shade light” on anything. Still, since I was the initiator of the resent PP2000 commotions I feel that my analyses of the situation would be warranted.

I know that there are people out there who feel disappointed about my report that my new PP2000 sounds wrong. Trust me, I feel more that disappointed. Still on the scale of larger picture I feel that what is going on now is one of the best things that happen to PurePower and even for the entire industry. I hope that the brainless idiots who visit my site to looks at the picture and pick some “buy” recommendations will stop to read right here. I hope that the idiot PurePower marketing director – Bob Rapoport will not read further as what will be further would require cognitive intellect – something that he does not have.

Ok, what is coming nest? I would like to offer you to think. I have noted the problem with sound when I detected that sound quality was very drastically change in my room from day to day and during the day. It did not happen before. Now I have 3 different power feeds in my house and they all sound different. When I connect PP2000 to any of those feeds then PP2000 sound bad but bad differently at each of my feeds. At the very same time my PP2000 sound fine from own battery.  Now remember Dima’s Avicenna regenerator? The Avicenna outputs a perfect power wave with ultra low distortion, still the Avicenna has no sonic impact to sound – playback with Avicenna and with Avicenna in bypass sound identical.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=9623#9623

Now many of you have many different regenerators and power treatment devices. You know that some of them work sometimes, in fact some of them work very well. But another day the main have different electricity as the devices is absolutely not effective.  You know for instance that PS Audio Power Plant does out MUCH better wave and my lower distortion abut has no good sound and very transparent to the bad problem that comes from mains.  Now, put all of what I described together. If you do then it would not be difficult to conclude that the problems with my new PP2000 regenerators have are not just that they “sound bad from AC” but that they suddenly stopped to be immune to the problems of electricity in mains. Anybody who played with electricity and sound does know that a perfect wave and low distortions  is not assurance of good sound, that there is “something else” in it. This “something else” got accidently broken in the new PP2000 and this broken “something else” made the new PP2000 do not disengage itself sonically to the bad electricity in main (Despite all DC flatting and regeneration is going on). Essentially the new PP2000 sound remarkably similar to the way how PS Audio Power Plant sounds…

Sure, it is desperately desirable to have someone to blame. Sure it is the bad and mean PurePower fuck up own regenerator. The reality is much more complicated. This “something else” is not known criteria and no one know what will affect that “something else”. In fact as now, the PurePower folks are working in emergency mode, making experiments and are trying to figure out what the problem might be. I guess that it might be tricky as the regenerator that they have in their test might inherent only quality of electricity that they currently have. We do not know what make sound to sound bad; we do not know that makes PP2000 to tune itself from that that “make sound to sound bad” – I am sure that it is not too pleasurable research. However, there is a fantastic catch in all of it. The key to the good electricity sound are in those few changes that PurePower accidently made recently.

So, why I feel that the things that are going on are best things that happen to PurePower and even for the entire industry? Have some imagination. Let pretend that reversing some changes PurePower discovered the reason why their PP2000 suddenly stopped to sound properly. This reason will be a “primer” for good electricity sound. Furthermore it very much might be the case that neither regeneration nor perfect wave even necessary for electricity to be good for audio and all that necessary is to have the “primer” injected in regular main. At least, if the PurePower will discover the primer then it will be assurance that their regenerators will be fine sounding in future. So, even I pissed and my playback is down, I am superbly enthusiastic about the result that it might lead to.  I do feel that what is might lead to is larger than PurePower and larger than me to fix my PP2000. Let hope that it all current situation will lead to some kind of true breakthrough discovery.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 622
Post ID: 15114
Reply to: 15110
Sensible Demands
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, Bud, I agree that the most common problem for the full-tilt regenerators is that they begin to exhibit various problems in direct proportion to current demands.  And this seems to be true even when they are used "below capacity" as stated by mfg.  Is it mere coincidence that a good battery has very excellent curent delivery?  The PP that relies only on its battery is not "asking" anything from its "up" circuits; and I have wondered all along about how the PP switches from line operation to battery-only operation, and if there is any difference in the circuit, per se between "battery in circuit" use and "battery back-up" use.  There must be...

Clearly, something is different when these PPs run off the wall power vs. when they run off their batteries.  Quite a few users have said the PP passes line noises when it is running from the wall, yet it is "quiet" when it is unplugged from the wall.  And now we hear that LF tansients are stronger/better when it's unplugged from the wall?  On the one hand, this "makes no sense".  On the other hand, sense must ultimately be made from this very situatuion.

Best regards,
Paul S
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 623
Post ID: 15115
Reply to: 15114
Buy a Chevy Volt... rip out the battery pack...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Et Voila! Perfect sound forever.

I am ready for a subwoofer sized battery pack by the house electrical service feeding the audio dedicated lines. Whats wrong with this solution? It doesn't exist yet? Heck, $15k in the grand scheme of things...

Steve
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 624
Post ID: 15116
Reply to: 15110
Where is the smoking gun?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Bud wrote:
Yes. Their is a direct correlation between surge current and dielectric materials dielectric constant. The voltages in question are high enough to use a thick dielectric material and just as with the effective resistance of the capacitor, there is a time constant to energy release from a dielectric material. This would never be an issue in normal terms. I realize that you consider SET's to have a constant current draw and this is mostly true, but peak current draw may be quite a different thing with power hungry mid bass signals.
Bud, isn’t it the definition of class A operation that the current draw is constant? There is no such a thing as peak current draw in SET amp. Current is constant routing from heating tube to driving loudspeakers. When I connect current meter to my amps then current does change but it does not change with signal but rather is changes with time for warming transformers, chokes as for other similar type of things. There is absolutely no peak current draw that I might see. Also do not forget that my bass channel on Melquiades has LC with something like 20.000uF capacitance of the last cap at B+. With this capacitance and with just 250mA currant it is absolutely imposable to affect PS.
 Bud wrote:
That the PP2000 cannot draw enough power to satisfy the system needs from the power line and it's essentially infinite reserve but can draw it from the battery pack says to me that there is a current limiting device in the AC to AC to DC supply circuit., before the battery float point which is at that DC point. Maybe a CLC filter would solve the problem.

OK, if it was the case then shall I be able to see the voltage drop at the time when PP2000 cannot draw enough power? I did not see any voltage drop in PP2000. I use my class A/B SS ams and drove it at 0dB with 30Hz filter. The amps were literally choking with signal but the PP2000 kept output very stable nominal voltage. I did look for 10-12 periods with real-time analog scope and I was expecting to see some of them sink. It did not happen.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 625
Post ID: 15117
Reply to: 15114
Akela missed his kill, doesn’t he, Paul?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Yes, Bud, I agree that the most common problem for the full-tilt regenerators is that they begin to exhibit various problems in direct proportion to current demands.  And this seems to be true even when they are used "below capacity" as stated by mfg.  Is it mere coincidence that a good battery has very excellent curent delivery?  The PP that relies only on its battery is not "asking" anything from its "up" circuits; and I have wondered all along about how the PP switches from line operation to battery-only operation, and if there is any difference in the circuit, per se between "battery in circuit" use and "battery back-up" use.  There must be...

Paul, and what rational made  you to “wonder all along” about it?

 Paul S wrote:
Clearly, something is different when these PPs run off the wall power vs. when they run off their batteries.  Quite a few users have said the PP passes line noises when it is running from the wall, yet it is "quiet" when it is unplugged from the wall.  And now we hear that LF tansients are stronger/better when it's unplugged from the wall?  On the one hand, this "makes no sense".  On the other hand, sense must ultimately be made from this very situatuion.

Paul, keep barking on the passing by train? You know in old Russian cartoon made after Kipling “The Jungle Book” there was an interesting character – a small and unpleasant wolf who was constantly bitching about the Akela mistakes. The character was not in the book, it was a creative thing of the Russian cinematographists but the character was wonderful and very memorable. When Akela got old and did miss his kill, the character begins to run across jangles and to scream “Akela has missed, Akela has missed….” Interesting that this character was not the next in line to be the pack leader, not even contested it. The character just had a pleasure to highlight the things that he has no business to be engaged.

Pall, sorry to tell you but in my mind you act now very much like that character from Russian cartoon. You say “quite a few users have said the PP passes line noises”. What “quite a few users”? I doubt that you heard PP2000 and I doubt that your know anybody who use it, and if you do then I doubt that they ever complain about “PP passes line noises”. All that you know about PP2000 is what you read at this site and you constantly recite what I say about PP2000 but twist it in negative connotation. The concept of PP2000 passes line noises did not exist before my post above and you suddenly converted it into “quite a few users have said.” I am sorry but it is cheap and has been very annoying. If you adjective are to find sense then sense must be searched with clear head and clean hands, it is not what you do, Paul. So, I do encourage you to share your own observation and your own experiences and do not make any baseless comments. When you say “now we hear that LF tansients are stronger/better when it's unplugged from the wall” then what reasons you have to use word “we”? There is no “we” in this enter subject and there is absolutely no business for you to impersonate a “hurt PP user.”

On the large scale of the thing I think that what PurePower does is quote commendable. How many manufactures would fuck up own products knowing that the customers are idiots and would not know difference anyway? I can give a list of very many audio products where only initial release, or a first few month/years of production were good but then the products turn shit.  No one juts know it because the customers are Morons. Paul, your beloved Lamm singlehandedly killed ML2 converting it to ML2.1 and if the voice of people like me you and other would never know that the deception took place. Do you want some sanity check – call to Lamm and complain that your ML2.1 sound like Krell – I would like to see how much satisfaction you get. The case with PurePower is very different. Vladimir Lamm is very advanced listener and he very much knows what he does and how the things sound. I am absolutely convinced that PurePower had no clue that the sound of the unit changed. Moreover, since they report that all measurable test parameter of the new units are as they have to be the most likely we deal with very fine and in some extend exoteric property that no one dealt successfully before. Even then PurePower is trying to take actions. What else might be expected? You need to understand that PurePower is stepping into the realm of the things that NEVER was done by anybody. If it was then anybody would prose properly sounding regenerator but I do not think anybody besides PurePower did, at least I was not able to hear them….

So, Paul, it is not kindergarten but I think you need to review your attitude toward realty and perspectives about PurePower. I would like to remind you that for over a year I had stable and absolutely perfectly sounding electricity and you were entire year complaining about electricity and was barking on a passing by train….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 626
Post ID: 15118
Reply to: 15115
PP2000 vs. pure batteries – that would be VERY interesting.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 AOK_Farmer wrote:
I am ready for a subwoofer sized battery pack by the house electrical service feeding the audio dedicated lines. Whats wrong with this solution? It doesn't exist yet? Heck, $15k in the grand scheme of things...

Steve, yeas, the huge battery pack is a good idea and it does exist. Some people I see put in basement a few tank-size batteries and run playback from them. This would require redoing the whole system – to transformers, not rectification, different type of filtration and so on. It might be a bit too complex to have a SET with 211 tubes running from battery but it done by people out there. I personally do like the idea on the practical merit. I do not play audio as “event”. I have playback on practically all time and I very frequently when I leave house I do not shut down the playback and keep amps running. So, my concern about buttery power is purely physiological – I do not want to be controlled by charging and discharging cycles. Still, I would be very welcoming if your or somebody within my reach would build a fully DC operating playback. Then I would bring my properly sounding PP2000 and we will hear if there is any further room for PP2000 improvement. Butteries powering is fine but my biggest interest is how far properly sounding PP2000 would be from Butteries. That is the question that possible to answer only after listening tests.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 627
Post ID: 15119
Reply to: 15118
Battery --> 60Hz 120V rms converter --> dedicated lines
fiogf49gjkf0d
I meant this scheme. Have the converter start at 105v when turned on and increase to 120v as a nice soft start for the tubes perhaps. Anything is possible with such a set up. 

I do think that audio is/will benefit greatly from all the technological push toward electric automobiles. The new batteries are less deadly to the environment. There is no way I will install 200 kilograms of lead or 100 kilograms of the metal halides in my basement for example.

We are near the end of having to deal with the line noise. Just be sure to drink enough red wine so you live to see it.

Maybe the sound of the chemical noise of the PP's battery operation is the *good* thing you seek Romy. So maybe the PP used to operate in such a manner that the chemical noise of the battery operation was what you had even in the AC  clean up mode and they changed something so that the chemical noise was no longer the thing we are in contact with but was again the AC line generation noise. Or whatever. Battery (of the PP's type) noise may be the key... the *other* thing we don't know yet.

Steve
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
TonyB
Toronto
Posts 22
Joined on 04-14-2005

Post #: 628
Post ID: 15120
Reply to: 15113
DC vs AC Operation
fiogf49gjkf0d
The differences between the battery operation and AC operation are to be expected.
One case is isolated (hopefully) from AC, the other case is not. If anybody thinks otherwise,
they are fooling themselves.

The first question to ask is to MAKE SURE that the battery is connected even when the
unit is running from AC.

If we are 101% sure (ideally by measurement of an open unit when it is operating) that
it is connected and that no switches between the battery and the regenerator were
changed between the battery and the AC modes operation, then the cause is the charging
circuit: it is connected in parallel with the battery in AC mode of operation.

There is a number of possible causes and a comparison of the schematics of the current
and previous versions would reveal the cause of the latest change in sound. 

The reasons for the difference between the battery and AC operation could be:

- An extra capacitor after rectifiers is connected in parallel with the battery (it is not there in battery only operation)
- The rectifiers generate noise and pass it in both directions
- Rectification adds spikes/RFI/EMI to DC which are not there in DC operation
- The transformer passes noise form AC to rectified DC
- Caps on AC input
- Chokes on AC input
- Rectification may dump noise, ... into GND line
- and many others...


TonyB
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 629
Post ID: 15121
Reply to: 15120
The differences between…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 TonyB wrote:
The differences between the battery operation and AC operation are to be expected.
One case is isolated (hopefully) from AC, the other case is not. If anybody thinks otherwise,
they are fooling themselves.

Tony, the fact is that the differences between the battery operation and AC operation is expected but it did not exist in practical audible term with former unit. I am very much not fooling myself. That was one of the beauties of PP1500 that I was so hooked 3 year back – there was no differences between battery and AC operation and all subjects of “isolation” just did not raise.

 TonyB wrote:
The first question to ask is to MAKE SURE that the battery is connected even when the
unit is running from AC.

You are right, that is THAT very fist question I asked, many times and PurePower assured me that the buttery are engaged all time. If it was not the case and by a bug of hardware or software the buttery gets disengaged what unit ruins from AC then the fix would be VERY easy to find. I did not open the unit and did not test it myself as PurePower assures me that buttery is on line.

 TonyB wrote:
If we are 101% sure (ideally by measurement of an open unit when it is operating) that
it is connected and that no switches between the battery and the regenerator were
changed between the battery and the AC modes operation, then the cause is the charging
circuit: it is connected in parallel with the battery in AC mode of operation.

There is a number of possible causes and a comparison of the schematics of the current
and previous versions would reveal the cause of the latest change in sound. 

The reasons for the difference between the battery and AC operation could be:

- An extra capacitor after rectifiers is connected in parallel with the battery (it is not there in battery only operation)
- The rectifiers generate noise and pass it in both directions
- Rectification adds spikes/RFI/EMI to DC which are not there in DC operation
- The transformer passes noise form AC to rectified DC
- Caps on AC input
- Chokes on AC input
- Rectification may dump noise, ... into GND line
- and many others...

Yes, good summation. I would like to point out that all of those issuers might be measurable if to measure them properly. There are a few things that have pitched to PurePower that are a bit more “esoteric”, like redaction of in-phase “fuzziness” that in fact might played a positive role by acting as dither… I would however agree that what you have enumerated are the things that need to be tested first and I guess it is what they are doing now. The cool part is they have the old motherboard that sound fine and they can compare the measurable data between them… 

The Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 630
Post ID: 15123
Reply to: 15117
Float
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, it is of course your forum, and it has rarely been productive to differ with you.  I will try to glean what I can that is helpful from your remarks directed to me and otherwise keep my observations as "objective" as possible.  For the record, I always accepted that one of your PPs worked for sound for a year, and of course I realize that many "successes" in audio are either accidental or they may result from "different" than "standard issue" modifications and/or applications.  I do not purchase other power conditioners because they do not "work".  I have not purchased a PP because I am not comfortable with my sense of the cost/benefit, overall, and this is mostly from what I have read in this and other forums, and despite the fact that your previous unit worked for sound.  Clark's "Jaguar Analogy" is spot on here, as far as I am concerned.  I do get your sense that this is as good a chance of a "final solution" as there has been to date for home audio power, and I do get that being part of the frontline fighting elite is the nobler venture most likely to yield the spoils. 

Anyway, I have been thinking that one thing for certain when the PP is unplugged is that its Ground (and so, its neutral) "floats".


Best regards,
Paul S
12-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 631
Post ID: 15127
Reply to: 15123
Our life energy systems are chemical...
fiogf49gjkf0d
and therefore I imagine within us is the chemical noise of the creation of that energy (phosphorylation and ADP --> ATP and NAD -->NADH+ electron transfer). So why not the (perhaps) similar chemical noise of the PP's battery chemical electron transfer having within us a natural susceptibility, a dithering effect if you will, on our sensory perceptions which naturally interpret this variety of noise as part of what is us?

Perhaps the wholly different nature of the *noise* inheirent in electricity generated from magnetic field interaction with charge fields is the difficulty we have with the noise of the AC line and not the corruption of the sinusoidal nature of the energy delivery system as is usually believed.

Might it not be?


Steve
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 632
Post ID: 15143
Reply to: 15118
Battery interim solution
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy:

You may in the meantime build your own battery pack to increase the playtime you get from batteries. When I last spoke to PurePower (I placed an order for a PP2000 in another life and then cancelled the order), I asked whether they would provide me with necessary specs so I could build my own battery packs. They said I could do so and would send me in an email the specs in question. As it happens, they never bothered to but maybe they will provide you with the specs so you can increase the battery powered playtime, say to about 5-8 hrs so you are not kept indefinitely waiting for PP to resolve the present situation.

Just a thought

Kind regards
Rakesh

12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 633
Post ID: 15144
Reply to: 15143
Topology.
fiogf49gjkf0d
You have to find out what the topology of PP's working power conditioner is. To build around a brand is to repeat the mistake of assuming a brand is a topology.

Steve
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 634
Post ID: 15145
Reply to: 15143
No buttery operation for my PP2000.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 oxric wrote:

Romy:

You may in the meantime build your own battery pack to increase the playtime you get from batteries. When I last spoke to PurePower (I placed an order for a PP2000 in another life and then cancelled the order), I asked whether they would provide me with necessary specs so I could build my own battery packs. They said I could do so and would send me in an email the specs in question. As it happens, they never bothered to but maybe they will provide you with the specs so you can increase the battery powered playtime, say to about 5-8 hrs so you are not kept indefinitely waiting for PP to resolve the present situation.

Just a thought

Kind regards
Rakesh



Rakesh, I mover your post from the midbass thread:

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=15142 

…to keep the midbass project more or less free from electricity subjects, even thought nowadays the electricity do screw my midbass results.

I though myself temporary solution to beef up the PP2000 buttery. I know that PurePower does external Power Packs; I thought to ask PurePower to lend me a few or to get my own. They are 72V butteries; it would be a bit costly to make them at capacity, probably a few thousand dollars – too much for interim solution. If PurePower would propose to send me a few then I would probably use them but I afraid that it might keep PurePower from feeling the emergency to fix the problem.

There is another even bigger; my main reason why I feel the extended buttery might not be a good idea.  I do not know how PurePower does in sale but I do feel that they sell mostly regenerators not the buttery Power Packs. I would not be surprised if they do not sell buttery packs at all as operation from buttery packs is not what the unit meant to do. When you add more buttery packs to on-line UPS device then you can’t do it endlessly. The UPS devise has to have on-board automated chargers the will be able to handle the currents that extended battery packs would demand. The contemporary charging logic is all SS and all computerize, so it is very precise and very fragile. I am not sure that the PurePower units are tested properly for some kind of enormous buttery attached to them. If you look for APC UPS device then they strictly informs that max amount of A/H the given UPS device can charge. A few more mA void warranty.  That is right approach as the PS for charging are not bottomless. I am not sure that PurePower, truly know the current limit of their buttery charger and I do not want to be the person who “researches” it. It is not to mention that my all 3 PP2000 shut itself up with all different and very non-critical buttery drainage – 40%, 56% and 86%(!) of FULL charge.

So, I do not want to dive in unknown with buttery charging debugging and I would like to have my AC operation back to service….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 635
Post ID: 15147
Reply to: 15145
What Works, and Why
fiogf49gjkf0d
Exactly, Romy.  Also, it is not so easy to come up with an alternative where the charger keeps up with the battery drain!  But because I have a short memory I have been wondering again about taking one's time to charge the battery (or, batteries).

One thing most of us will run into if attempting "home brewed" AC regeneration is that the "commercially available" DC/AC converters are also too noisy for hi-fi.  But I have never heard anyone complain about the PP running off its batteries, which, apparently, means they have at least put this one behind them...  Sure it is not a "good value" to buy bigger batteries and own chargers to do this job with just the PP down-converter, but I think this is basically a matter of voltage...

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/accessories/odyssey-ultimizer-charger.htm

This same site lists a very high quality giant (88 pound) battery, as an example.

I am pretty sure you'd have to unplug the charger to listen to hi-fi...

and the usual problems arise if long play time at high drain is desired...

Just mental fishing, and I understand that APS says, "no difference", but I keep thinking the PP grounding arrangement (and so, the "circuit"...) has got to change when the up (AC/DC/charger) unit is engaged versus when it is running battery/down only.  Among other possibilities this may engender, I wonder about the possibility of "noise re-cycling" or "inappropriate" shunting on the neutral/ground matrix...

Romy, did you mention whether you have measured [across] the neutral and ground legs of these new units yet?

Best regards,
Paul S
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 636
Post ID: 15149
Reply to: 15147
Readers, do NOT try this!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d

I suppose there are the usual strong strictures against it, but has anyone tried lifting the (3rd wire) ground only during wall-powered operation?  Best results, whatever that might mean, would require a "dedicated home run" for the neutral wire.

Paul S

12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 637
Post ID: 15151
Reply to: 15113
Got really pissed today.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I got really pissed today. After initial “welcoming” and informing that they are working on it I kept asking PurePower what they were trying or tested and never was able to get any sensible reply.  For the last two day they are dogging my calls and send me emails informing me: “That is bullshit. Unless you are God you do not know more about our product than we do.” Really? I do not think so….

In contrary to PurePower I did spent a number of evenings trying all possible connections on PP2000 – nothing works from AC properly. Furthermore today to insult the injury it look like my theory about the PP2000 “transparency” to input noise blew in my face as today the wall electricity sounded much better than the from PP2000, that is what I did – disconnected all my regenerators and drove the playback from my dedicated lines. Do not get confused: the PP2000 from butteries still sound significantly interesting but my PP2000 do not get buttery changed and run from buttery 20-30 seconds – yes, “nothing was changed my ass!”

Anyhow, I true do not know what to make from all of it. I have 3 none-operational units, the company that believes that I am sort of a buffoon and quite nice playback the in the end left with no good electricity. Did I do anything wrong to deserve it? Do I need to stay at my knee and to beg the PurePower to fix those new units?

I do not know, I will see what the next week will bring. I do not want this last longer then it shell be and want to use my playback but not to fight with hi-fi manufactures… For now I am quite pissed.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 638
Post ID: 15153
Reply to: 15151
The journey, not the destination.
fiogf49gjkf0d
PP is a toy compared to what is needed.

A. Buy a damn Chevy Volt.

B. Carefully remove the beautiful battery and it's 115v 60Hz AC charging system.

C. Install in the battery in your basement and connect it to a DC --> 115v 60Hz AC generator.

D. 40 miles in a 3000 lb car = a very long listening session.

This isn't the end of the journey either just the next step.

Too bad class D amps sound like crap or you could just take the battery out of your car and be done.

Steve
12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 639
Post ID: 15154
Reply to: 15153
Solar power
fiogf49gjkf0d
I talked for a couple of hours today with a local Solar Power technician,  I sort of told him all the gear I have that would need to run on batteries and we got a shaky number; from that number he started calculating a bunch of panels and batteries and inverters and intelligent chargers etc... the final price: Close to what 3 PP2000 cost.   On a cloudy day I would not be able to listen to my system or if I have a long listening session...So I just Asked: Could I just hook up my car to the bateries and charge them and get done with it?  He told me of course, but we wouldnt do that because we are a green company!  I have been making water filters for 25 years I think I have owned the right to park my car, hook it to my sound system and leave it running for a couple of hours more!

But I still would need to know if it would sound any good!  I would be listening not to the 12 volt batteries but to whatever the inverter did to make 110 volts AC out of the 12 volts DC....  And then my signal procesors would probably bring down the 110 V AC to 12 VDC again! etc...

So I started to google Car audio amps,  maybe for my subwoofers?  they have nice 4 channel AB amps with built in low pass and high pass adjsutable Xovers, very nice fuses and power cables, even a huge 1 farad cap to avoid the headlights on your car from diming during the overture!

Then of course we have this: http://vt52.com/
With a great little 0.6 watt amp for my compression drivers and RAAL tweeters with a power supply made out of 16 pcs 12 volt batteries,  and matching preamp.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Trojan-SCS150-12V-100Ah-Group-24-Deep-Cycle-Battery-/370419966373?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563ec021a5
If we get the first cheapy deep cycle battery I found for close to $ 170 usd  times 16, around 2,700 usd.  My current amp costs much more than that!

http://www.dddac.de/   This guys seem to have a very nice DAC,  complicated enough to make it look interesting, that runs on batteries too... Less than 16  I am sure!


Only thing I need now is what to do with my Upper bass horns,  I am sure 0.6 watts wont get them happy.... maybe a battery gainclone or some SS thing might do the trick.  plenty of that around!

This is very interesting;
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/index.htm

I heard this once and it seemed very nice... good bass!
http://www.audio-consulting.ch/?Products:Amplifier:MIPA_30_Watt

Of course there is also this:
http://www.audio-consulting.ch/?Products:Tube
For the price of a small house!  that is a lot of PP2000s!

Of course my Forsell transport and TT will run from the wall... no problem there!

And if the world comes to an end I will still be listening to my system among the wreckage....

Anyway,  buy a Chevy Volt, do not remove the battery, just find the right cable and keep it running on your driveway!
12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 299
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 640
Post ID: 15155
Reply to: 15154
Mother of tone
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:

This is very interesting;
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/index.htm



he use 12V car battery and it seems he like car battery for his low power amplifier.
This site has good ideas about sound, i never experienced his solutions but it's quite different with common audiophile views.

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