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  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  145799  10-29-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2062205  07-26-2009
  »  New  A playback and wrong notes...  Why is it not common practice?...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  55176  03-12-2007
  »  New  All Active! A DSET and multi-way acoustic system...  Hahaha...  Audio Discussions  Forum     14  119623  01-31-2008
  »  New  The “Dead Points of Live Sound”..  Confused...  Playback Listening  Forum     28  312800  05-14-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  43028  06-19-2006
  »  New  About speakers Imbedded Macro-Positioning...  Big room AEZ...  Playback Listening  Forum     15  180882  05-16-2007
  »  New  Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time...  Vitavox 15/40...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     455  2839186  05-20-2010
  »  New  Another problem in my new listening room...  Bass Trap...  Analog Playback Forum     1  23282  08-24-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  17309  10-08-2010
  »  New  About dymick sparkling...  About dymick sparkling....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  16087  10-29-2010
  »  New  Bass impact on Turntable: how to estimate objectively..  I have done some work on this in the past....  Analog Playback Forum     4  45332  11-01-2010
  »  New  I have a dream, the dream about a Chair...  A bit exaggerated to me....  Playback Listening  Forum     31  216250  10-29-2009
  »  New  Dedicated Music Room Build..  Show it....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  58918  03-03-2011
  »  New  Listening rooms and composers...  On "typewriter music"....  Playback Listening  Forum     15  129813  05-16-2010
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  109712  06-15-2010
  »  New  Sound from behind a window...  Sound from behind a window....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  14358  04-24-2011
  »  New  Reinforced live sound in audio listening room..  Listening room acoustics...  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  35599  07-05-2012
  »  New  A listening room for a domesticated Cat?..  Eventually!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     283  874707  02-04-2016
  »  New  The ULF cannel for my new listening room...  The Organic Bass vs. ULF Drivers...  Audio Discussions  Forum     43  116334  07-29-2018
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 13355
Reply to: 13349
Thoughts on alignment: Direct vs Reflected mid-bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
Facing similar issues, until confirmed or disproved by experimentation, the following represents my view:

Situation 1):
Mid-bass horns aimed generally TOWARD listener's ears:
Alignment of the DIRECT OUTPUT of the horn for time arrival to listening point should take precedence.

Situation 2):
Mid-bass horns aimed clearly AWAY from listener's ears: 
Alignment of the 1st REFLECTED OUTPUT of the horn for time arrival to listening point should take precedence.

I would interpret Bill's installation as belonging to Situation 1.

I would interpret Romy's proposed installation (mid-bass horns mounted above and behind listener) as belonging to "Situation 1.25" (leaning more toward Situation 1).

In the event Situation 1 does not allow the bass to mature before reaching the listener's ear (can we say that this is likely the case in all but really huge rooms?), it would seem desirable to keep that immature bass away from the listener, and therefore Situation 2 may be the better alternative.

Assuming situation 2 is possible, receiving mid-bass primarily as reflected sound, one would have to take into account the reflected path of that sound, and how it describes the mid-bass part of the image, relative to the MF/HF part of the image; for example, the reflected mid-bass may very well originate on the left, but reach the listener's ear from the right.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 13356
Reply to: 13355
The peculiarity of time alignment.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Assuming situation 2 is possible, receiving mid-bass primarily as reflected sound, one would have to take into account the reflected path of that sound, and how it describes the mid-bass part of the image, relative to the MF/HF part of the image; for example, the reflected mid-bass may very well originate on the left, but reach the listener's ear from the right.

I less care about direct listening left/right consequences. At I am more interested to learn about alignment. You said “take into account the reflected path” but will it be “taken into account” during the actual measurement? That is what very interesting. In midbass the wavelength is very long and it is very difficult to get “true” delay. For instance if I bring my RTA to the Bill’s room I doubt that I would be able to measure a proper alignment – he has no room for it. Somebody with true large room, I would estimate 2000 need to make this experiment once and for all, discovering how to alight the bounced wave. I am sure there a million variations to the “right” answer. The angle of the horn axis, the type and the proximity of the low pass filter on the midbass hot, the reflective characteristic of the bouncing wall and few others, so, I guess in some cases the practicality of direct midbass vs. reflected midbass alignment might be negligible or near negligible, but I do not know for sure. I know for sure that what we go over the pain or making, installing and using a proper midbass horn then we have no strength left to question the peculiarity of time alignment

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 112
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 43
Post ID: 13357
Reply to: 13356
Mid bass horn.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The actual first reflection of my horn is not from the side wall or floor but from the back wall. The horn is actually against the side wall and floor which gives it the configuration of a quarter horn with the side wall and floor acting as an extension of the horn itself, thus no first reflection. This allows the horn to reach deeper for its actual length and mouth, while cutting off the two most damaging first reflections. The back walls are lined with RPG diffusers which also have built-in absorption down to about 100 Hz., thus partially removing this reflection also. Directly over my head is a cage for an Electrohome 9500 LC projector with sound absorbing material which also mitigates the first reflection from the ceiling. Thus there shouldn't be much of a bounce wave compared to the direct sound for the listener.
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 13358
Reply to: 13357
Guess is only a guess…
fiogf49gjkf0d
Bill, first reflection of your horn might be from the back wall but when you are talking about reflection you imply HF that propagates according to the rules of transverse waves. The LF waver act more like pressure (longitudinal) wave and they do not have definitive first reflection in your case. The first reflection is more applicable to the HF content of your horn.

I personally feel that the reentry reflections need to be discarded and the shortest distance is the only something the can be taken unit alignment configuration. Still I feel that in case of horns the reentry reflections might smear a LOT of the alignment results. The only objective way to answer this question is to do an actual measurement in a location. So, my guess is only a guess, who know how it will be in real situation.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 13359
Reply to: 13348
What I do not like in my current Sound.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Without mentioning the reasons here are a few pointers:

1)      There is no proper  tone
2)      Horizontal imaging is less refined then I would like it to be.
3)      Sound is not wet enough.
4)      At high volumes room can’t dissipate HF
5)      Sound does not have uniformed density and more reminds a dug and raked backyard.
6)      Strenuous and laborious presentation.
7)      Playback does not sound with the room but in the room.

The CaT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 13360
Reply to: 13266
Do you know who produces this wall treatment?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Wall_Treatment_1.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lbjefferies7
Southern California
Posts 49
Joined on 01-11-2008

Post #: 47
Post ID: 13361
Reply to: 13360
George Massenburg's Diffusion
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.blackbirdstudio.com/#/studios/

That is Massenburg's Studio C.  I can't find the article where I first read about this room, but, it is simply staggering.  It's all 1 inch pieces of MDF and no two sticks are the same length.  It took something like 1400 sheets of the stuff!  I am looking into room treatments myself as my new dauntingly small room is finally forcing me to deal with such things.  This, is purely amazing.  I'd love to hear what it does.

LBJ


I'm not interested in having an orchestra sound like itself. I want it to sound like the composer. Leonard Bernstein
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 112
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 48
Post ID: 13362
Reply to: 13361
Diffusors
fiogf49gjkf0d
Try RPG Diffusors

Bill Gaw
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 49
Post ID: 13363
Reply to: 13362
Diffuse injection
fiogf49gjkf0d
Try diffuse injection, like the Reds lying on the floor pointing upwards, or diffusely radiating speakers like Goebel.
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 50
Post ID: 13364
Reply to: 13359
Let analyse why it so
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, you said there is no proper tone. In your old system/room setup you were very close to the back wall, but now it is far behind you. I'm probably wrong, but I thinkyou don't have proper sound in the mid-upperbass with this configuration which is responsible for loosing the "proper" tonal pressure. Generally it is very complicated and i can't give you any recomendations but in my opinion you must find where is the optimal listening position and to set the acoustic system in context of this zone and in the same time you must find a way how to excite your room to play with Macondo...


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 51
Post ID: 13365
Reply to: 13364
Analyzing, it is what I am doing now.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 haralanov wrote:
Romy, you said there is no proper tone. In your old system/room setup you were very close to the back wall, but now it is far behind you. I'm probably wrong, but I thinkyou don't have proper sound in the mid-upperbass with this configuration which is responsible for loosing the "proper" tonal pressure. Generally it is very complicated and i can't give you any recomendations but in my opinion you must find where is the optimal listening position and to set the acoustic system in context of this zone and in the same time you must find a way how to excite your room to play with Macondo...

Thanks, Haralanov, I always like your thinking, good question. I wonder myself where the tone gone. The same speakers, the same amps the same digital front-end (I did not set up analog yet) but less interesting tone. As the factors that eat Tone I see the following.

1)    My Left channel has only a half distance with PAD Dominus, the rest is Radios Shake cable.

2)    This is I think is a main reason. The room is larger and has consequentially longer reverberation time at HF. It is absolutely not treated in a typical sense of this word and has naked walls as now. The room does not sound “bright” but I think the HF reflections inject the HF noise into MF, producing HF mist that dilute the tone. I still do not want to treat the wall and ceiling with explicit treatment.

My back wall is pretty far, the wall behind the ears is in fact over 15-20 feet away. There is a wall above/behind the listening position that is very bad for reflection and it is bare now. This is the wall what the mouth of the midbass horns will be, so I do not do any action on this wall for now.

I still do not measure anything and juts am collection information about the room.  I for instance discovered last Sunday a very cool way to regulate “bass” I n my room. I need a few pieces of custom furniture for the room (with some acoustic ides bolt in) and it will take for a while to find somebody who would do it as whoever is good looks like booked up to September….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 52
Post ID: 13366
Reply to: 13365
Wheel and Deal
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, all this seems to be fairly typical of large-ish listening rooms, along with grotesque lobing and combing.  I agree with waiting to use absorbtive treatments until you have a sense of the the system/room's total energy potential, using current amplification.

I am always amazed by how much the distance from the wall behind the speakers affects tone/tonal saturation, imaging, etc., and this may be due to summing/cancellation effects or related phenomena, in which case it should be possible to change the summed/cancelled bands by moving the gear and/or your ears.

Anyway, I was just thinking it might be nice to have some wheels (or, sliders) for a while, to facilitate moving that mountain of stuff around on the carpet.

Best regards,
Paul S
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
msaudio
Posts 45
Joined on 12-09-2009

Post #: 53
Post ID: 13367
Reply to: 13365
Treatment on walls, would be a mistake.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 A better option would be to build cheap diffusers with wheels on them, that you could move around in new room to trouble shoot what is going on. 36X72 With some 2X4 on 16 inch centers with fiberglass in between stapleled with some decretive materal over it. they could make the room look real cool with floral prints on the cloth. This is the best way to find the weakness in sound. It will be a hugh mistake to just start putting foam on walls anywere.

04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 54
Post ID: 13368
Reply to: 13366
The High-End Saloon Sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Romy, all this seems to be fairly typical of large-ish listening rooms, along with grotesque lobing and combing.
Yes, this is what I call the High-End Saloon Sound. Those relatively large demo rooms with depersonalized “Bastard Sound” is something that I do not like but it what in a way I am getting for now. Well, we will see how it goes and how to tailor Sound to what it need to be.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 55
Post ID: 13369
Reply to: 13305
I Must Be Missing Something
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, looking at the top photo in your 04-18-10 post, it looks like a tall CD shelf system is literally parked smack on top of a baseboard heater.  On the face of this, I would not do it.  So, what am I missing, here?

Best regards,
Paul S
04-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 56
Post ID: 13371
Reply to: 13366
I put sliders under my speakers
fiogf49gjkf0d
I put my speakers (downward firing ports) on wooden boards which can slide easily over carpets.

Not only did this improve the sound from my speakers (which was my original intent) but it also made it much easier for me to try different positions. I initially tried carpet spikes, and apart from sounding bad, they made it too hard to move the speakers.
04-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zako
Posts 85
Joined on 05-25-2008

Post #: 57
Post ID: 13372
Reply to: 13368
ROOM
fiogf49gjkf0d
ROMY,,,,There is nothing wrong with your room ,,Its perfect,,The room is telling you , that your speakers are wrong...Its time for a clean slate,,,Redesign your totel system...       Maron
04-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 58
Post ID: 13373
Reply to: 13372
Might I ask you to extend your thoughts?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zako wrote:
ROMY,,,,There is nothing wrong with your room ,,Its perfect,,The room is telling you , that your speakers are wrong...Its time for a clean slate,,,Redesign your totel system...       Maron

Zako, when you feel that “room is telling somebody  that the speakers are wrong” then what thought process you use to make such an assumption? In my specific case: do you think the speaker’s topology was wrong or the implementation of a chosen topology was wrong? How do you feel a “room is telling to somebody that speakers are right”? Do you feel that a “room” and speakers are some kind of fixed booleans, like a size of the foot and the size of matching shoe? If yes, then what alterative and better topology would you propose for my “perfect room”?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
msaudio
Posts 45
Joined on 12-09-2009

Post #: 59
Post ID: 13374
Reply to: 13372
"Strenuous and Laborious Presentation" In romy's Playground
fiogf49gjkf0d
I also believe there is little wrong with your new room. Some electrical problems witch is common for new layouts and some light reflective material her and there with some good furniture witch you have been thanking about for a long time anyway. I do believe your speaker topology is correct "But need's to be refined for larger room. Example's, Vitovox driver in the mids should be a larger horn same size as lower mid, This could give more output with no extra input. Your dyna 8 inch woofer in your bass horn should be changed to a EV 12 inch with atleast 98 db at 1 watt this could give you more output with less input. You should try to make your amp's so they donot have to work so hard, being your room is so much larger.
04-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 60
Post ID: 13375
Reply to: 13374
I would say that it is all very much arguable.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 msaudio wrote:
I also believe there is little wrong with your new room. Some electrical problems witch is common for new layouts and some light reflective material her and there with some good furniture witch you have been thanking about for a long time anyway. I do believe your speaker topology is correct "But need's to be refined for larger room. Example's, Vitovox driver in the mids should be a larger horn same size as lower mid, This could give more output with no extra input. Your dyna 8 inch woofer in your bass horn should be changed to a EV 12 inch with atleast 98 db at 1 watt this could give you more output with less input. You should try to make your amp's so they donot have to work so hard, being your room is so much larger.

I would say that it is all very much arguable. I do not see a need of Vitovox driver to be placed in larger horn – I have no intention to get lower range from it. My Fundamentals Channel with Vitovox, I always wanted it to run lower, the way how Jessie did it, and I have placed an order for larger Fundamentals horns a few months back. Still, the lack of the Fundamentals extension is very much not the problem that I am experiencing. I do not use any dyna 8 inch woofers, so I do not know what you are talking about.

Regarding the amplification – it might be the case, it for sure runs deeper to the end of the class A. I need to look into it BUT… I run the system at near the same preamp volume level as before. I guess bans the room is much “brighter” I get a feeling that I have enough volume. I think if I damp the room than I would lose 3-6dB of volume and then I might experience some issues with gain and power.

Still, I do not want to treat the room with explicit acoustic room treatments. I do not want the room look like an audio room but rather as a living room with speakers in it. I wish I would fine that damn cable from my TRA and was able to measure what I am getting in here…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 3 of 24 (479 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  145799  10-29-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2062205  07-26-2009
  »  New  A playback and wrong notes...  Why is it not common practice?...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  55176  03-12-2007
  »  New  All Active! A DSET and multi-way acoustic system...  Hahaha...  Audio Discussions  Forum     14  119623  01-31-2008
  »  New  The “Dead Points of Live Sound”..  Confused...  Playback Listening  Forum     28  312800  05-14-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  43028  06-19-2006
  »  New  About speakers Imbedded Macro-Positioning...  Big room AEZ...  Playback Listening  Forum     15  180882  05-16-2007
  »  New  Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time...  Vitavox 15/40...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     455  2839186  05-20-2010
  »  New  Another problem in my new listening room...  Bass Trap...  Analog Playback Forum     1  23282  08-24-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  17309  10-08-2010
  »  New  About dymick sparkling...  About dymick sparkling....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  16087  10-29-2010
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  »  New  Dedicated Music Room Build..  Show it....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  58918  03-03-2011
  »  New  Listening rooms and composers...  On "typewriter music"....  Playback Listening  Forum     15  129813  05-16-2010
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  109712  06-15-2010
  »  New  Sound from behind a window...  Sound from behind a window....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  14358  04-24-2011
  »  New  Reinforced live sound in audio listening room..  Listening room acoustics...  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  35599  07-05-2012
  »  New  A listening room for a domesticated Cat?..  Eventually!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     283  874707  02-04-2016
  »  New  The ULF cannel for my new listening room...  The Organic Bass vs. ULF Drivers...  Audio Discussions  Forum     43  116334  07-29-2018
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