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In the Forum: Audio Discussions
In the Thread: RMAF 2008 observations, opinions 1) ceramic drivers
Post Subject: Correcting a few misunderstandings . . .Posted by cdwitmer on: 10/17/2008
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Dear Robert and Roman,

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Chris Widmer [sic] does not understand it as well not to mention that his attempt to explain the high price of Feastrex sound too bogus.

The Cat


You are certainly welcome to speculate about such things as much as you like, but I'm going to point out the fact that what you are saying is sheer speculation. Just in case anyone suspects that I might have some ulterior motives for posting that information, or for frequently posting online about Feastrex, let me state again for the record that I have no financial interest in any audio-related business whatsoever. The last time I received any compensation from Feastrex was in January of 2006 when I invoiced them at standard market rates for my interpreting services at CES. (I interpret and translate for a living.) Also for the record, I do not even use any Feastrex products at the present time. (Perhaps someday I may, if I can get my wife's approval. In any case that is likely to be several years hence as I still have several children to put through college.) My reason in making the referenced explanation was exactly the same as my reason for posting here now -- to correct ignorant, baseless assertions critical of products and people that I personally admire. I think it takes a lot of courage and character for a garage maker to successfully manufacture a product like the Feastrex fullrange drivers, and for that I admire them. I know it is quite beyond my ability to do such a thing.
 
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Mass production of permendur cost nothing and to make this driver cost nothing – two year ago they sold it for $1000, not the sell it for $40.000 – what, the turning permendur become 40 time more expletive? Anyhow, let to be adult about it – there is NOTHING expensive in driver’s mass production if the production is well organized.

The Cat

Where do I begin with all the errors in that statement? First, even accepting that you were using hyperbole, to say "production of Permendur costs nothing" and to make Feastrex drivers "costs nothing" is patently ridiculous. If anything, I greatly understated the actual cost of Permendur to Feastrex. I referenced prices for mass-produced Permendur which is called "black rolled"; Feastrex will not use black rolled Permendur for several reasons. Sumitomo Metals, which supplies Feastrex with Permendur, will not give any quality guarantees on black-rolled Permendur: beneath the black coating there could be any sort of cracks or other imperfections that would render the affected section of the material useless and require it to be simply thrown away. Furthermore, they would make no guarantees as to the compositional purity of the material. Feastrex always has their Permendur manufactured on a custom order basis to the dimensions that they require, and they always have it manufactured oversized so that they can have it milled down to the correct final dimensions with a high degree of precision and assurance that there are no imperfections. They also receive guarantees on the compositional content and perfect physical integrity of the material. As a result, their materials costs regarding Permendur are actually considerably higher than what extrapolations from black rolled Permendur would suggest. Another thing that must be kept in mind about Permendur is that any prices that may have been quoted to you a year or more ago are long out of date. The price of this material, along with the prices of many other materials, has been skyrocketing and the simple fact of the matter is, in today's market nobody can tell you what the price of Permendur will be until you actually order it. They will come back with a quote that will be valid for a very limited time and after that the price will be different again -- almost certainly higher. As for the ease/difficulty and associated costs of machining Permendur, that will depend on the actual composition of the material, the size, and that shape that needs to be achieved. Don't believe everything a machinist tells you before he actually tries to do the work. Japan has no shortage of excellent machinists with the best tools and several times they had machinists accept the task of machining their Permendur motors only the return the Permendur to Feastrex unmachined, saying, "Forget it; we can't/won't accept this task as is it is beyond our capabilities/simply too uneconomical for us to accept." And they have also had companies do the work one time and then tell Feastrex, "We will never accept this kind of work again." (Their reasons were the same as the companies that rejected the work after seeing what was actually required.) It is hard to blame such companies -- Permendur is so hard and brittle that it is easy to crack or chip during machining and if they ruin a piece of material that costs thousands of dollars, their loss could be huge relative to the amount of money that they can make from he machining operations. But all these companies were initially interested and offered to accept the work. So -- simply because a machinist says one thing prior to doing the work does not mean it is the truth even for that job, and even if it does turn out to be true in that case, it may have little or no application to understanding the costs involved in a very different job.

Next, Feastrex never sold any driver with an all-Permendur field coil motor for $1,000. You are confusing these with the entry-level D5nf permanent magnet models.

Finally, you speak of "mass production" but there simply is no mass production of anything in a Feastrex driver, and that fact alone will always cause the drivers to be more expensive.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

To spending $40K for let it be even good single-driver loudspeaker is a summing of absurdity in my view.

The Cat


For some people that is almost certainly true. But to turn it around, there are also some people who simply could not be satisfied with the world's best horn speakers, regardless of whether they could afford them. Different people have different needs in audio, and that is why different types of loudspeakers continue to exist. One of the great things about the free market is that consumers in Feastrex's selected niche market will be the ones who judge whether these entreprenuers are ultimately a success or a failure.

Romy, if you ever have another opportunity to hear Feastrex drivers I hope you will do so . . . they may never be your cup of tea but they have come a long way from where they were when you heard them in January of 2006.

Best regards,

-- Chris Witmer

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