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Posted on: 8-7-09

JLH

Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts: 42



Thread: Midbass Horns and Real Estate.
           Reply: Circumferential phasing plug problems  
fiogf49gjkf0d
I understand your position on compression and not wanting to screw up the tone. The Community M4 driver is the perfect example of how NOT to build a 4” exit compression driver. First, the cone/dome material is garbage. Neither the sandwiched aluminum nor the carbon fiber cone/dome has anything interesting to offer in tone. In addition the phasing plug is all wrong in design. The circumferential phasing plug is a huge offender of tone if not implemented correctly. Funny enough, Vitavox is the only one to get it right in the S2. All others are compromises which do not have interesting tone.

The problem can be seen in the design of the circumferential phasing plug. Various different frequencies launch off of a cone or dome where the frequency’s wavelength is equal to circumference. So, if you have a 15” woofer and play an 800Hz tone through it, you will find that most of the acoustic energy is coming from the area of the cone that is 5.38” in diameter. The higher the frequency, the closer the sound emits from the dust cap area and vise versa.
 
Now knowing this, you see the inherit flaw of the circumferential phasing plug. The rings that form it block several diameters across the dome. This also creates reflections and resonance problems. The radial phasing plug on the other hand does not suffer from these problems. Since the radial slits start at the center and go to the edge of the done or cone, all diameters have a clear path straight forward and all tones are represented. They are not impeded or forced to wiggle around a ring. This means that all tone gets through the radial phasing plug and is better preserved. No it doesn’t exactly sound like the cone without a phasing plug, but it is very much closer to not screwing with the sound.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/Altec&Henrickson_Tangerine.pdf

Another advantage to the radial phasing plug is the slit width and dome spacing can be changed to shape the high frequency response. The circumferential phasing plug dies quickly at high frequencies, but the radial phasing plug has a useful high frequency tail.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/Henricksen_1978_Tangerine_PP.pdf

Rgs, John
 Posted Date All replies in the thread
  7-26-09   Midbass Horns and Real Estate.   (7-26-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-26-09   Room to Romy   (7-26-09)..Paul S
  7-27-09   Underground mid-bass horn and the inverted alternative   (7-27-09)..jessie.dazzle
  7-27-09   Midbass options to consider.   (7-27-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-27-09   But what will the neighbors think?   (7-27-09)..jessie.dazzle
  7-27-09   Horns and R&E ready to go….   (7-27-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-27-09   Dualing bass   (7-27-09)..jessie.dazzle
  7-27-09   Midbass hors vs. flooding subwoofers - very different game.   (7-27-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-27-09   To Do It Right?   (7-27-09)..Paul S
  7-27-09   This search might be complicated   (7-27-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-28-09   The Mendelsohn approach.   (7-28-09)..tuga
  7-28-09   A pool of ideas for now….   (7-28-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-28-09   The big D   (7-28-09)..jessie.dazzle
  7-28-09   Raising the roof   (7-28-09)..jessie.dazzle
  7-28-09   A vertical midbass horn and environment   (7-28-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-28-09   Brownstones?   (7-28-09)..Paul S
  7-28-09   Suburban home additions for horns   (7-28-09)..scooter
  7-29-09   Ceiling horn ups and downsides   (7-29-09)..tuga
  7-29-09   The real-state U-turn?   (7-29-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-29-09   Side-stepping legal issues with added on room   (7-29-09)..jessie.dazzle
  7-31-09   About the Rogero’s or Johan Dreyer’s approach.   (7-31-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-31-09   Playing with Johan Dreyer’s idea further.   (7-31-09)..Romy the Cat
  7-31-09   Eh, stupid!   (7-31-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-1-09   And sometimes I feel so blew that I do not what anything.   (8-1-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-1-09   Another renderation of Rogero’s or Johan Dreyer’s idea   (8-1-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-2-09   About time alignment in mid bass horns   (8-2-09)..Saturntube
  8-2-09   The time alignment scenarios.   (8-2-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-2-09   Getting on with it, while keeping options open   (8-2-09)..jessie.dazzle
  8-2-09   More Ideas   (8-2-09)..Saturntube
  8-2-09   Looks like a good solution   (8-2-09)..JLH
  8-2-09   My stupid wet dreams. How little a man need….   (8-2-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-5-09   A proper commercial midbass horn, sort of....   (8-5-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-6-09   Ok, I've found a great home for my left 20Hz bass horn!   (8-6-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-7-09   Consider   (8-7-09)..skushino
  8-7-09   People who do general contracting…..   (8-7-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-7-09   The throat considerations.   (8-7-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-7-09   Make your own   (8-7-09)..JLH
  8-7-09   I would like to use my 15-incher, the question is HOW?   (8-7-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-7-09   Circumferential phasing plug problems   (8-7-09)..JLH
  8-7-09   ....puzzled with your response....   (8-7-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-7-09   The Great Unknown   (8-7-09)..Paul S
  8-8-09   Fourier transform tells the story   (8-8-09)..JLH
  8-8-09   Midbass Adjustable Horn   (8-8-09)..Saturntube
  8-8-09   My take about midbass and phase plug.   (8-8-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-8-09   The interchangeable backs for midbass? I do not know…   (8-8-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-8-09   The "Hanging" inverted Midbass J-horn.   (8-8-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-10-09   The midbass Pipeline Conversion horn???   (8-10-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-10-09   Straight / J Horn - Why?   (8-10-09)..skushino
  8-10-09   RE: Straight / J Horn – Why?   (8-10-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-10-09   Time alignment is a real problem with this kind of horns   (8-10-09)..haralanov
  8-10-09   Two Mouths   (8-10-09)..skushino
  8-10-09   More ideas and drawbacks   (8-10-09)..Saturntube
  8-10-09   How does 40 hz to 200 hz sound like   (8-10-09)..Saturntube
  8-10-09   40Hz - 200Hz and GLARE...   (8-10-09)..Axel
  8-11-09   The CNCing? Interesting…   (8-11-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-11-09   Layered construction horn   (8-11-09)..Axel
  8-11-09   CNC Snail Horn   (8-11-09)..Saturntube
  8-11-09   The construction techniques – that will be the last.   (8-11-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-15-09   Time alignment how?   (8-15-09)..mjloudspeaker
  8-20-09   The ceilings height   (8-20-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-20-09   High ceilings   (8-20-09)..cv
  8-20-09   Shortening a High Room   (8-20-09)..Lbjefferies7
  8-21-09   Using of the “High ceilings”   (8-21-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-21-09   Some roomy links   (8-21-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-22-09   Sand damping topologies.   (8-22-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-22-09   Tubed sand   (8-22-09)..decoud
  8-22-09   Sandbag damping   (8-22-09)..Lbjefferies7
  8-22-09   A considerable amount of sand pressure.   (8-22-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-22-09   Automobile solutions   (8-22-09)..scooter
  8-23-09   Auto Former   (8-23-09)..Paul S
  8-24-09   The corner loading.   (8-24-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-26-09   A sort of ridicules bass idea but let see…   (8-26-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-26-09   6m Basshorn   (8-26-09)..Dominik
  8-26-09   Another basement horn.   (8-26-09)..tuga
  8-26-09   Early firing Midbass horn   (8-26-09)..Saturntube
  8-26-09   Framed, Raised Floors   (8-26-09)..Paul S
  8-27-09   Can a bad floor be cured by gain/power?   (8-27-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-27-09   It Is Do-able   (8-27-09)..Paul S
  8-28-09   The ALE Acoustic midbass solution vs. right 15-incher   (8-28-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-28-09   Concrete rooms of hellsound   (8-28-09)..mjloudspeaker
  8-29-09   CH Audio Design   (8-29-09)..skushino
  8-29-09   I do not understand what CH Audio does.   (8-29-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-30-09   Japanese Cone Suspensions.   (8-30-09)..eduardo
  8-30-09   YL1250 - very interesting!   (8-30-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-30-09   Bass drivers to the end.........of physycs?   (8-30-09)..eduardo
  8-31-09   The drivers for midbass and…. the mistakes.   (8-31-09)..Romy the Cat
  8-31-09   Ah, mystery & suspense   (8-31-09)..jessie.dazzle
  8-31-09   Was it worth it?   (8-31-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-1-09   Havering on...   (9-1-09)..jessie.dazzle
  9-2-09   Main floor pre-load   (9-2-09)..jessie.dazzle
  9-2-09   About the Macondo-like systems room dialing.   (9-2-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-2-09   Yeah; That's the Ticket   (9-2-09)..Paul S
  9-3-09   Concrete horn example   (9-3-09)..tuga
  9-3-09   Options, options, options…   (9-3-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-3-09   About the Maturation Shields ™   (9-3-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-4-09   Giant litter box   (9-4-09)..jessie.dazzle
  9-4-09   Sand and Sinagogues   (9-4-09)..tuga
  9-4-09   How to know that floor is the problem?   (9-4-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-4-09   Tossing Off a Couple   (9-4-09)..Paul S
  9-5-09   The external horns construction ideas   (9-5-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-5-09   In The Swim (and School Fees)   (9-5-09)..Paul S
  9-5-09   13-step program   (9-5-09)..jessie.dazzle
  9-6-09   Big horn materials   (9-6-09)..Saturntube
  9-14-09   Ignore CH AUDIO ?   (9-14-09)..Paragon
  9-14-09   Another place to pee?   (9-14-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-14-09   Ignore, Ignore, Ignore   (9-14-09)..skushino
  9-14-09   The Afghan Camels   (9-14-09)..skushino
  9-14-09   Boundaries as an extension of the horn flare.   (9-14-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-14-09   Discretion   (9-14-09)..skushino
  9-14-09   …. Ignore the company's claim of using the ceiling and adjacent walls as extensions of the horn flare.   (9-14-09)..Paragon
  9-14-09   Considered as a solution for fitting a large bass horn in a normal-size living space,   (9-14-09)..Paragon
  9-16-09   A small dedicated room - the build history.   (9-16-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-16-09   Cost/Benefit   (9-16-09)..Paul S
  9-16-09   The perfect built room.   (9-16-09)..Romy the Cat
  9-16-09   Shape vs Construction   (9-16-09)..Paul S
  9-21-09   The harcore approach   (9-21-09)..tuga
  9-22-09   Another setup with ceiling horns   (9-22-09)..Romy the Cat
  10-13-09   Another large horn example   (10-13-09)..JoshK
  10-22-09   A first interesting find.   (10-22-09)..Romy the Cat
  10-22-09   Steamships vs. Icebergs   (10-22-09)..Paul S
  10-23-09   The absolute minimum dimensions and the 'new' attic ideas.   (10-23-09)..Romy the Cat
  10-23-09   Condensation issue's in Boston   (10-23-09)..miab
  10-23-09   An active thermo-stabilized blanket around back chamber?   (10-23-09)..Romy the Cat
  10-23-09   Costs, Expectations and Open Space   (10-23-09)..Paul S
  10-23-09   Demise of the r2000 home   (10-23-09)..miab
  12-21-09   External 15” into 4’x6’ from Audio 1954   (12-21-09)..Romy the Cat
  1-25-10   Romy, you can stop searching   (1-25-10)..Markus
  1-25-10   I see nothing to be overwhelmed…   (1-25-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-25-10   On a more serious note   (1-25-10)..Markus
  1-25-10   By "Careful Arrangement"   (1-25-10)..Paul S
  1-25-10   My troubles with direct radiators   (1-25-10)..Saturntube
  1-26-10   The first interesting arrangement   (1-26-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-26-10   Loading Zone   (1-26-10)..Paul S
  1-26-10   An interesting room-loading post   (1-26-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-26-10   Will the Cat become an “industry professional”?   (1-26-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-27-10   The tremendous opportunity.   (1-27-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-27-10   Aim direct radiators at ears   (1-27-10)..zanon
  1-27-10   Why call it "Battle Road"   (1-27-10)..zanon
  1-27-10   The second American Revolution?   (1-27-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-27-10   Atmospheric Pressure vs Tonal Pressure   (1-27-10)..Paul S
  1-28-10   The same problem here   (1-28-10)..Wojtek
  1-28-10   The suspended floor treatment – some questions.   (1-28-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-28-10   Bang for the Buck Approaches   (1-28-10)..Paul S
  1-28-10   It was fairly simple in my case   (1-28-10)..Wojtek
  1-28-10   I used planks of wood   (1-28-10)..zanon
  1-29-10   To seal or not to seal?   (1-29-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-29-10   The midbass horn: the first uppercut from real-estate.   (1-29-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-29-10   I didn't have to seal   (1-29-10)..Wojtek
  1-29-10   Proper structure stiffening   (1-29-10)..miab
  1-29-10   What did you find?   (1-29-10)..miab
  1-29-10   Roger, the Sistering   (1-29-10)..Paul S
  1-30-10   I wish it were easier…   (1-30-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-30-10   Dig in your heals & make them fit   (1-30-10)..jessie.dazzle
  1-30-10   I hope I do not need to do for the alternative option   (1-30-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-30-10   …. certain value beyond its purchase price.   (1-30-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-30-10   It's not so bad really.   (1-30-10)..miab
  1-30-10   I hope it would all work out.   (1-30-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-30-10   Words vs. Pictures   (1-30-10)..Paul S
  1-30-10   Here is where the horns advantages bite my by my tail.   (1-30-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-30-10   Too soon now.   (1-30-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-31-10   Reframing Attic Ceiling   (1-31-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-31-10   Vibration induced resonances   (1-31-10)..tuga
  1-31-10   This is an interesting one.   (1-31-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-31-10   What would be interesting in this room…   (1-31-10)..Romy the Cat
  1-31-10   Decoupling the Horns and Horn Hell   (1-31-10)..Paul S
  1-31-10   Bagel Sandwich Roof horn   (1-31-10)..Saturntube
  1-31-10   Tapped Out   (1-31-10)..Paul S
  1-31-10   How about silent blocks?   (1-31-10)..tuga
  1-31-10   Well TH...   (1-31-10)..Saturntube
  1-31-10   Differential Movement   (1-31-10)..Paul S
  2-1-10   Gain and bass   (2-1-10)..Saturntube
  2-1-10   I do not see a lot of interesting solution out there.   (2-1-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-2-10   My olde listening room.   (2-2-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-2-10   Keep ye olde room!   (2-2-10)..montepilot
  2-2-10   Fair Warning   (2-2-10)..Paul S
  2-2-10   Who know how it will go.   (2-2-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-2-10   Progress   (2-2-10)..Saturntube
  2-2-10   Wise Warning   (2-2-10)..Lbjefferies7
  2-3-10   Moving, remodeling, building, etc….   (2-3-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-4-10   Attic horns: L/R Separation   (2-4-10)..jessie.dazzle
  2-4-10   The Monofication of the midbass   (2-4-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-4-10   The corrected room size.   (2-4-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-4-10   What impact do open spaces have?   (2-4-10)..zanon
  2-4-10   The "escape" areas of our listening rooms.   (2-4-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-5-10   Some idea of what will happen   (2-5-10)..Saturntube
  2-5-10   Why did you choose such nearfield position?   (2-5-10)..zanon
  2-5-10   The “secret” that no one would tell you…   (2-5-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-5-10   I still will be trying to get the same nearfield setting...   (2-5-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-6-10   My five cents   (2-6-10)..twogoodears
  2-6-10   The long wall, wide angle. Just-continue configuration   (2-6-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-6-10   Work in progress, on the right path   (2-6-10)..twogoodears
  2-6-10   When I am in town next   (2-6-10)..zanon
  2-7-10   Some lessons from Magico Ultima installation.   (2-7-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-7-10   I have a miniature of this room   (2-7-10)..Wojtek
  2-7-10   Another room case study.   (2-7-10)..tuga
  2-7-10   Sometimes too wide speakers drain tonal density   (2-7-10)..zanon
  2-7-10   Speakers angle vs. tonal density.   (2-7-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-8-10   Agree on what you say wrt tonal density   (2-8-10)..zanon
  2-12-10   To hide or not to hide.   (2-12-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-12-10   Hot, Cold, Wet, Dry   (2-12-10)..Paul S
  2-24-10   Dealing with first reflections, in natural way.   (2-24-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-25-10   Midbass Horns And Real Estate   (2-25-10)..msaudio
  2-27-10   Custom building work and mathematical constructions?   (2-27-10)..Romy the Cat
  2-28-10   "Boston, you can have it."   (2-28-10)..Romy the Cat
  3-3-10   Mid-bass horn: Room loading/augmenting   (3-3-10)..jessie.dazzle
  3-3-10   The all is not so simple.   (3-3-10)..Romy the Cat
  3-3-10   Some clarification   (3-3-10)..jessie.dazzle
  3-3-10   Debugging the upperbass   (3-3-10)..Romy the Cat
  3-3-10   Preparing for upper-bass sweeps   (3-3-10)..jessie.dazzle
  3-3-10   Riding the horn…   (3-3-10)..Romy the Cat
  3-6-10   The Playback’s last weekend, the Freudian motives.   (3-6-10)..Romy the Cat
  3-11-10   Mike Malinowski’s room journey   (3-11-10)..Romy the Cat
  3-19-10   Ok, I think my R&E project is over.   (3-19-10)..Romy the Cat
  5-3-10   A possible Midbass horn?   (5-3-10)..Romy the Cat
  5-3-10   A possible Midbass horn project?   (5-3-10)..msaudio
  5-3-10   Might not look like a living room anymore...   (5-3-10)..Romy the Cat
  3-18-11   The Real Estate tunes...   (3-18-11)..Romy the Cat
  7-10-13   Be my guest.... 25 days left.   (7-10-13)..Romy the Cat
  5-10-14   An interesting project   (5-10-14)..Romy the Cat
  5-20-14   Another interesting project   (5-20-14)..guy sergeant
  5-21-14   More here   (5-21-14)..guy sergeant
  9-6-15   ALE, Beryllium.   (9-6-15)..xandcg
  10-13-15   Images.   (10-13-15)..xandcg
  10-13-15   GOTO horns.   (10-13-15)..xandcg
  10-18-15   Horn Mouth.   (10-18-15)..xandcg
  10-18-15   About 41Hz   (10-18-15)..anthony
  10-18-15   Thanks.   (10-18-15)..xandcg
  10-19-15   It is not difficult   (10-19-15)..anthony
  10-19-15   Just right now!   (10-19-15)..xandcg
  10-19-15   I might not be the best person to ask...   (10-19-15)..anthony
  10-19-15   Got it.   (10-19-15)..xandcg
  1-11-16   5" and 6"   (1-11-16)..xandcg
  1-11-16   These bass compression drivers.   (1-11-16)..Romy the Cat
  1-11-16   Now I got.   (1-11-16)..xandcg
  1-11-16   Specs.   (1-11-16)..xandcg
  1-12-16   Those bass drivers ....   (1-12-16)..Romy the Cat
  1-12-16   I am not willing to make them myself.   (1-12-16)..xandcg
  1-21-16   "Cost"   (1-21-16)..Paul S
  1-23-16   I had got it.   (1-23-16)..xandcg
  1-24-16   Hearsay   (1-24-16)..Paul S
  11-14-16   Does anyone know about this German company that offers Compression driver that can do 80-5000Hz?   (11-14-16)..oxric
  11-14-16   Using Exotic LF CDs for Bass   (11-14-16)..skushino
  11-15-16   80Hz compression driver.   (11-15-16)..Romy the Cat
  11-15-16   Compression drivers are copies of western Electric 555 using original membranes   (11-15-16)..oxric
  11-15-16   I do not think so.   (11-15-16)..Romy the Cat
  11-15-16   Could be interesting though...   (11-15-16)..oxric
  12-26-16   ALE Loudspeakers.   (12-26-16)..xandcg
  5-5-17   Just a youtube video...   (5-5-17)..xandcg

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