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11-20-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 81
Post ID: 8920
Reply to: 8916
On Prototypes
fiogf49gjkf0d
The first two prototypes is actually one build, the only difference being the volume/area of the chamber.  (Perhaps I could have chosen more proper words in describing this part of the horn.  By 'volume/area chamber', I'm specifically referring to the area/portion of the horn extending from the output [front] of the phase plug, through to the space behind the driver.)

The throat size, as well as the rest of the horn, will be the same one in both proposals.  (The drivers will be of the same diameter in both designs, thus there is no need to modify the throat size, nor the rest of the horn.)

If the results obtained in both of the proposals fail to provide satisfactory results, then I would proceed to construct the third design.  (The third design, however, is a departure from the base design of the first two proposals, so much that it would in essence be an entirely different horn.  For that reason, I would build the third design only if the first two present marginal performance.)

I notice you keep mentioning the term, 'compound horn'.  The horn design I propose is not a compound horn (a horn inside a larger horn).  The design approach I'm decided upon involves using the front and rear acoustic energy of a driver toward horn loading.
11-20-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 82
Post ID: 8921
Reply to: 8920
Not a compound horn?
fiogf49gjkf0d

You're using a phase plug?  Why?  To try to get it to go higher? 
If using parallel drivers, and doubling Sd, it may be necessary to change throat area to not damage drivers... 

The third design type sounds quite different from the first two. 
In my opinion, so much better I've quit messing with the first two... 
Have you heard both type horns? 

"Compound Horn" is what I've heard many speakers with horns on both sides of the driver called... 
e.g. what I mentioned previously, & linked, what I've built,... 

11-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 83
Post ID: 8925
Reply to: 8921
Partial Disclosure For The Sake Of Clarity
fiogf49gjkf0d
I've only had the pleasure of listening to 'professional' horns (whatever 'professional' really stands for)--horn normally used in concerts and small venues.  (It was always so obvious to me--by listening--that the range of the horn-loaded 'bass cabinets' was being limited by the length of the horn [no equipment measurements immediately needed, since I'm very sensitive to Mid/Upper bass frequencies].)

I'll give you a basic idea of what the proposed design would look like:  two J-shaped horns back-to-back, as though it were a mirror image.  Thus the reason for the horn throat remaining the same--the drivers do NOT share the same throat, but instead each driver loads its own horn.  I'm sure the 'picture' is now clear, correct?

If you take into account the amplifying effects of nearby surfaces, the reasoning behind my approach for a Mid/Upper bass horn design becomes obvious.  One 'drawback' of this approach is the increased depth of the overall design, but it is one I believe I've been able to successfully accommodate (considering the dimensions) in the overall base design.

(I'll refrain from describing other parts of the overall design, given that it'll 'spoil the surprise' when the horn is actually built.  lol.  Plus, I may decide to file for a design patent on the horn [a design patent will only protect my commercial interests, preventing an exact design from being manufactured and sold without permission].  Nevertheless, I'm inclined to provide full design specs to the DIY community, since they have been a great resource in providing examples of what has and has not worked [provided my end design works at all, lol].  On another hand, patents can be such a frivolous process to impliment in an attempt to 'protect' anything, adding undue complexity and an imaginary sense of security at best, most of the time.)

In regards to a phase plug, the only reason I'm intent on implementing one is to provide a smooth reduction from the surface of the radiating area (the cone) to the throat.  I'm not interested in particularly concerned with higher frequencies being projected as a result of incorporating a phase plug, especially given the target range of 40Hz to 400Hz (500Hz dependant on the compression driver's capability).  I will be using an electronic crossover in the completed system, to attenuate any unwanted frequencies outside of the target range (the system will be an 'active' one), though the use of the crossover will be very judicious.  If the phase plug does help in projecting the higher frequencies in the target range in to any extent, it's an effect that will be most welcomed.

I do know that acoustically, given the target range, the phase plug may appear 'invisible' to the driver for a good part of the frequencies in said range, but it may still prove to be a positive in the overall end design.

Think of it as a consideration of 'no stone left unturned'.  lol.  I cannot prove on paper whether the time vested in implementing a phase plug will be a complete waste--the only way to be sure is to build the phase plug and test/listen to the horn both with the phase plug and with a conventional flat section in place of where the phase plug was, and comparing both tests.


 serenechaos wrote:

You're using a phase plug?  Why?  To try to get it to go higher? 
If using parallel drivers, and doubling Sd, it may be necessary to change throat area to not damage drivers... 

The third design type sounds quite different from the first two. 
In my opinion, so much better I've quit messing with the first two... 
Have you heard both type horns? 

"Compound Horn" is what I've heard many speakers with horns on both sides of the driver called... 
e.g. what I mentioned previously, & linked, what I've built,... 

11-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 84
Post ID: 8926
Reply to: 8921
Base Design
fiogf49gjkf0d
The previous response I posted, 'Partial Disclosure For The Sake Of Clarity', assumes you are referring to the second prototype of my proposed design.  (The base design is the same, with the exception that it uses one driver instead of two.)


 serenechaos wrote:

You're using a phase plug?  Why?  To try to get it to go higher? 
If using parallel drivers, and doubling Sd, it may be necessary to change throat area to not damage drivers... 

The third design type sounds quite different from the first two. 
In my opinion, so much better I've quit messing with the first two... 
Have you heard both type horns? 

"Compound Horn" is what I've heard many speakers with horns on both sides of the driver called... 
e.g. what I mentioned previously, & linked, what I've built,... 

11-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 85
Post ID: 8927
Reply to: 8925
Clueless as to dresdendesign
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Dresden wrote:

... two J-shaped horns back-to-back, as though it were a mirror image. 
--the drivers do NOT share the same throat, but instead each driver loads its own horn.  
I'm sure the 'picture' is now clear, correct?...
If you take into account the amplifying effects of nearby surfaces, the reasoning behind my approach for a Mid/Upper bass horn design becomes obvious...

Clear as mud... 
Actually, no; sorry, I thought I understood that it was a horn that loaded both sided of the diaphram, like old Tannoys, Lowthers, etc. 
Now I really don't understand what you're doing. 
Maybe you're on to something good...  

 Dresden wrote:

In regards to a phase plug... 
I will be using an electronic crossover in the completed system, to attenuate any unwanted frequencies outside of the target range... .
Think of it as a consideration of 'no stone left unturned'.  lol.  I cannot prove on paper whether the time vested in implementing a phase plug will be a complete waste--the only way to be sure is to build the phase plug and test/listen to the horn both with the phase plug and with a conventional flat section in place of where the phase plug was, and comparing both tests.

That was why I ask; just wondering why use a phase plug to push unwanted frequencies higher, to have to cut off electronically. 
Seems easier to do acoustically, higher frequencys don't want to get out of longer horns. 
Balance horn length, leave out the phase plug, AND extra electronics in the signal path... 

 Dresden wrote:

Think of it as a consideration of 'no stone left unturned'.  lol. 

Have you modeled these yet? 
What frequency response does that give? 
I know Romy doesn't believe in models, but most horn builders still do, and told me to... 
They don't tell Sound Quality, but they can predict frequency response within a few dB. 

 Dresden wrote:

Think of it as a consideration of 'no stone left unturned'.  lol. 

Or even maybe take Romy's advice about paragraph 3; read this site, most of this has been done before; e.g. phase plugs, transitions to horns...  
"My “homework” to you, as to a person who would like make commercial upperbass horns:
what do you think the relation of this third paragraph with the context of this thread? 
Mind you that it very loaded question." 
11-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 86
Post ID: 8928
Reply to: 8925
The collaboration about nothign?
fiogf49gjkf0d

A phase plug in J-horn? Hm, OK, whatever…

Dresden, what I find disconcerting is that you are talking about “design” without taking or thinking about your sonic objectives. That is all reminds me very much what the folks at diyaudio.com do. They keep talking about any imaginable subject and most of them do not even understand why they are talking about it. Those few from there who do understand what they are talking about are not able to associate whatever they do or think with any more or less rudimental listening experiences or own musical objectives, in fact they hardly even have any listening objectives at all.  I have seen many of those “angry designers”, I mostly laugh on them and they do not recognize why.

I do not know what serenechaos’ problem is with understanding of what you do but I am in on a same page as he is: in my coordinate system of “how the things done” and not sure what your project is all about. You won’t to build some kind of 40Hz that you wish to be “good” but the only more or less interpretable objectives that you brought up was… let me see… Class D amp, less cost, ability to market it to pro folks, no specific sonic objectives… did I miss anything?

I do not men to be critical but if you are trying to learn to lay a musical instrument then want would be the definition of your success if you are not planning to play your musical instrument or even listen it? I feel that people need to deign playback not in accordance to the deign concepts that some morons ( like me) from internet pass  out but rather to learn to recognize with themselves own listening objectives and learn how to communicate vise the  objectives goals and methods.

Otherwise it becomes the diyaudio.com-level of the BS collaboration and I personally have no interest in it.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 87
Post ID: 8930
Reply to: 8928
On Design Pursuant To Objectives
fiogf49gjkf0d
My approach of the Mid/Upper bass horn and design decisions have been pursuant to a specific acoustic performance target first, quality of construction second, and cosmetic appearance of the finished horn the third.  (I believe I was clear in a previous post when I noted I was willing to 'kill my babies', should the horns fail in terms of reaching the desired acoustic performance--irregardless of how beautiful I perceive them to be.)

The design of the Mid/Upper bass horn changed dramatically (compared to when I first 'designed' in an attempt to create a more 'practical', 'size-friendly' concept), not due to any desire to produce a 'good looking' horn, but because the pursuit of an acoustic performance target demanded it be so.  My rationale for putting some time and energy into the outer appearance of the horn is that I find the idea of a horn resembling remnants of industrial age factory machinery difficult to live with.

In regard to a phase plug, I clearly noted in an earlier post that I'm aware frequencies in the target range make the phase plug 'invicible' to the driver--it is not an attempt to implement something for the sake of 'design', appearance, or as a marketing ploy, but instead it is something that I have to listen to for myself (thus the reason I also noted that a flat-face extension to the horn throat will also be tested in place of the phase plug).

I won't delve into rationalizing my decision for making the complete system active or why I chose the various types of electronics--even if I had decided on some of the 'better sounding', high-priced (or worse, 'cost-is-no-object') components, it is no guarantee that the final prototype would achieve 'X times' greater performance when compared to lesser-desired components.  The electronic components were chosen to produce acceptable results while keeping the overall costs affordable.  (Of course, anyone volunteering to cover all of the costs [or gift] components with more desirable capabilities will be most welcomed.  lol)
07-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 88
Post ID: 11158
Reply to: 8930
115hz horn auto cad 2d drawing...
fiogf49gjkf0d
I print almost all posts from this site. For last months I study them a lot. I completly suck in by Romy vision of sound reproduction. First I decied to build melquiades amplifier and give it a try with my ob setup.
Next step is "horns"
I found on ebay german plastic horns, but anywhere I cant get not plastic but massive 115hz horn for a fair price. I spoke with german company but they want 12 000 euro for two 115hz horns!!!!
I want to hear sound of this horns, I never heard it before.
Yestarday I met my friend who run big company - they building agricultural units and have lot of cnc machines.He told me: "give me auto cad 2d project and then I can tell You if I can do it for You"
I dont know how to use autocad. I tried but its to complicated.
So gentelmans,
Do You have  auto cad 2d drawings of 115hz horns with 4" throat?
07-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 89
Post ID: 11159
Reply to: 11158
Cad horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
where are you? 
what are you trying to do? 
(cnc one pair of horns out of "something," build a mold, build a series of molds for different size horns)? 
i'm interested in doing the last of the mentioned options, and building molds w/ cnc for different size, then making carbon fiber horns. 
i can do the drawing part, but it is 3d, not 2d, and is rather complicated for the type and quality of mold i would like to build to make it worthwhile. 
the only way it would be worth doing is to find someone with a "friend who has big cnc machines," and still, the raw aluminum to make molds will be quite a few thousand dollars...  but this method would be able to produce very high quality, non-resonate, light-weight, horns. 
07-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 90
Post ID: 11160
Reply to: 11158
The problem I see is not with Autocad only.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Dominik wrote:
I print almost all posts from this site. For last months I study them a lot. I completly suck in by Romy vision of sound reproduction. First I decied to build melquiades amplifier and give it a try with my ob setup.
Next step is "horns"
I found on ebay german plastic horns, but anywhere I cant get not plastic but massive 115hz horn for a fair price. I spoke with german company but they want 12 000 euro for two 115hz horns!!!!
I want to hear sound of this horns, I never heard it before.
Yestarday I met my friend who run big company - they building agricultural units and have lot of cnc machines.He told me: "give me auto cad 2d project and then I can tell You if I can do it for You"
I dont know how to use autocad. I tried but its to complicated.
So gentelmans,
Do You have  auto cad 2d drawings of 115hz horns with 4" throat?

Dominik, I ma not pleased with your “suck in by Romy vision of sound reproduction” but this is another subject.

Regarding your autocad and the horn things….

I would not advise to build anything as you have an idea what it might be. Find somebody and listen horns, get a grip what it is all about – horn are tricky, most of them are very bad an you might not like them.

Anyhow, there are many free circulation tools that would allow to get horn prose and dump it into autocad. I have at my site a tool for Tractrix profile, with which you calculate whatever you wish:

http://www.romythecat.com/Docs/TractrixCal.xls

Some might feel that 115hz horn might not be Tractrix but to have slower opening. There are some cone and pros for this view. I do not have exponential of another calculator handy but you might find them online. Still, I would strongly discourage you to make actions juts because any Moron on line, would it be me or anybody else, juts has a “vision of sound reproduction”. Get the reference points, correlate them with own objectives and then make a decision if it might benefit you.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 91
Post ID: 11165
Reply to: 11160
I want to try...
fiogf49gjkf0d
"Dominik, I ma not pleased with your “suck in by Romy vision of sound reproduction” but this is another subject."
I didnt wrote this to make You pleased, this is true. thats all...

I would not advise to build anything as you have an idea what it might be. Find somebody and listen horns, get a grip what it is all about – horn are tricky, most of them are
very bad an you might not like them.


Nobody around dosnt have this kind of  system, I didnt heard also that anyone in
Poland have similar system and I dont want to "hard looking" for anyone who have it.

Anyhow, there are many free circulation tools that would allow to get horn prose and dump it into autocad. I have at my site a tool for Tractrix profile, with which you calculate whatever you wish:

I have this calculator but function of moving to auto cad dosnt work Sad

Still, I would strongly discourage you to make actions juts because any Moron on line, would it be me or anybody else, juts has a “vision of sound reproduction”

in internet they are many people with sound vision (I already try OB setup- this is the vision of Mr.Lampizator-evan meet this guy)but on this site this vision have goodvery good explanation-how, why etc. I like it.

Get the reference points, correlate them with own objectives and then make a decision if it might benefit you.
I am on the road to get those reference points, and if anyone like it or not I will check it by myself. If its not match
me needs I will throw those horns from the cliff Smile


Dominik



07-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 92
Post ID: 11167
Reply to: 11165
Upper bass problem BLH
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,

late, but my experience shows,
most construtors didn´t understand simple diagrams
like the real and blind part of a expo bass horn,
so they take the flare rate not low enough, 
they take the wrong enclosure material, like PA,
and they wonder it sounds in living rooms, boxi, horni, etc.
colouration in lower voices.

a new technic can cancle the SPL increase over 100 Hz,
take two different horns.

i describe it with
bass horn mouth distance
membran movement cross setting
look my double horn constructions

explanation here, in the middle:
http://www.hm-moreart.de/11.htm


DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
less is more
07-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 93
Post ID: 11169
Reply to: 11165
Just irrational building vs. sensible architectureing
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Dominik wrote:
Nobody around dosnt have this kind of system, I didnt heard also that anyone in Poland have similar system and I dont want to "hard looking" for anyone who have it.
Dominik, you are free to do whatever you wish but if you invest any credit in what I say them trust me– the “system” (like this or like that) is not responsible for Sound. The sound you get is a reflection of the efforts of YOUR understanding what Sound is and how it shall be. Copping somebody’s elements or buying similar components do not deliver results until you rediscover within yourself the motivations that lead others to do certain steps. I do not know what your experience with SET amps and speakers is but I would strongly encourage people before do any building to take time off and to think what they are trying to build. When you build a house you have some objectives and views what the house will be for and how it will be used. The playback is very much the same…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 94
Post ID: 11188
Reply to: 2426
Upper bass cross-over capacitors...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hi Romy,
I hope I got this right when going through this long thread with LOTS of information.
Did you mention for upper-bass cross-overs Elko’s (electrolytic) only to be your preference?
If I have it right, any special preference at all as to 'smooth' (Mundorf = Glatt) or 'rough' (Mundorf = Rau)?
Thanks,
Axel

07-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 95
Post ID: 11189
Reply to: 11188
The high-pass crossovers for upperbass.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Axel wrote:

I hope I got this right when going through this long thread with LOTS of information.
Did you mention for upper-bass cross-overs Elko’s (electrolytic) only to be your preference?
If I have it right, any special preference at all as to 'smooth' (Mundorf = Glatt) or 'rough' (Mundorf = Rau)?

I do not know what Elko is and I most likely was not talking about any upperbass crossovers but only about high-pass upperbass crossovers. You shall not worry about it as you do use horns but among certain types of upperbass horns the unloading unused bass is very beneficial and the capacitance volumes in there is very high. Also, I was not taking about any electrolytic but about the actively biased electrolytic

 http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=4067

..that in my experiments with upperbass horns any film caps. I did not try Mundorf. Well, I did 10 year back before the Mundorf become the high-end capacitor company. At that time Mundorf caps were dirt cheap and used by people in car audio. They were OK, the actively biased electrolytic (I use only commercial grade Nichicon) were better. Mind you that the channel did not care HF signal…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 96
Post ID: 11192
Reply to: 11189
ELKO = *El*ectrolyt *Ko*ndensator, and actively biased
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks Romy,
now if you use active biasing, have you any thoughts on 'Rough' and 'Smooth' electrolytics?

Also your diagram, as it seems to me, is misleading. Putting 2 same value caps in series actually halves their value (they're added when in parallel). So in your pic, I guess the two 1/2 values should then rather be two of twice the base value, no?
Axel
07-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 97
Post ID: 11193
Reply to: 11192
Electromechanically pressurized dialectic
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, it is a bit confusing, as I meant to say that it will be a half of capacitance, I said it twice and it looks unclear. Still anybody understands how series capacitance works. BTW, it was a standard practice in before 70, before industry made by-polar caps to use a series pair of caps. The key in this application is that there is no DC in speaker signal and the dialectic got constantly recharged with AC. In case you apply a DC bias the dialectic get charged and electromechanically “pressurized”… KI do not know about 'Rough' and 'Smooth' electrolytic though…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 98
Post ID: 11234
Reply to: 11169
Irrational decisions...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Most of the "best things in my life" comes from my irrational decisions first. Even my company...
I met my friend and show him horn photos.
So, he can build molds or horns.
He have some fantastic michine, I was looking how it work and it was hard to believe...

It is something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH9MvaGMqGM  
With     3600x2600x1200 work table.
Work of machine is free for my, I must buy mdf only. No more then 600$ for two 115 horns.
But I do not have those auto cad drawings, if somebody have or can do it for me, then it will by wonderfully. I can pay for that project, no problem.

Regards
Dominik


07-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 158
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 99
Post ID: 11235
Reply to: 11234
Volvotreter
fiogf49gjkf0d
Get in touch with Erik if you're not familiar with volvotreter web site already. His Trax calculator includes CAD numbers for profile drawing.I'm not sure how useful it'll be for your friend's CNC router. Check out www.diyaudio.com and AA for JLH John Hasquin (hope I got it right) posts and tutorial how to make MDF midbass horns. Lots of work but not that difficult and super precision is not required for that pass-band (according to John).Anyone has to start somewhere so good luck ( even Roman loved square mid horns  and oppen baffles at some point Wink
PS. Don't they sell Avantgardes in Poland anymore so you could get an idea what are you after?
Powodzenia, Wojtek
07-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 100
Post ID: 11240
Reply to: 11235
Got it!
fiogf49gjkf0d
dominik.jpg
First drawing. 115hz horn.
Any  suggestions???


Regards
Dominik
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