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07-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Audiogerhard
Posts 1
Joined on 07-24-2017

Post #: 61
Post ID: 23338
Reply to: 22557
Crossover hornfabrik
Hi
I read about your very fine hornsystem on Romy´s homepage. I started now a own Hornproject and I see your crossover from “Hornfabrik”. You have so right that a good crossover is also a key for a very good hornsystem. I´m so interested on the values from the crossover. Is it possible that you send me the values from your crossover.

Kindly regards
Gerhard
07-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 63
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 62
Post ID: 23339
Reply to: 23338
Which values?
Which values are you after? If its the crossover points, here they are, they ay be indicative for you;
dual Tad1601b's in 298lt br boxes - open on bottom to 120 Hz, in a range 90 to 150 Hz ~12 dB (three different settings can be chosen, according to room response)

cf110hz tractrix - supravox 285-2000 modified - 100Hz (effective 150Hz) - 600Hz (effective 500Hz) - 6 dB

cf200hz tractrix - radian 850 - 500Hz - 5000Hz - 6 dB

cf1400 JMLC - radian 475be - 4500Hz - 12000Hz (effective 8000Hz) 6 dB

fostex t500amkII 9000 Hz (effective 7000Hz) 6 dB


However, unless every single component is exactly the same with mine, my crossover wont work for you... 
07-25-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 63
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 63
Post ID: 23340
Reply to: 23339
Impedance correction
Keep in mind that my crossovers are not just 6db filters. There is an impedance correction network, suited to these exact drivers in these horns. Unless this correction is there, the first order filters can not work against the rising or falling impedances. 

Only after achieving flat responses from these drivers in their respective horns within their chosen ranges, they are filtered with 6db.

That is also the reason that my crossovers are unique to my system. If I make a change, I will also need to change the corresponding part in my crossovers.
05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 63
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 64
Post ID: 24855
Reply to: 21722
Update on room and new measurements
I just wanted to make an update. I have since rebuilt our main room and am very happy about it. Having a very good and homogenous decay (within 0,05ms) for the whole audio band really turns the listening experience in to something else. Total clarity from bass to upper end. Great transient response, a very relaxed sound without loosing any of the good qualities like dynamics and detail. The front wall is made up of binary diffusors and about 30cms worth of absorbtion behind it. The center is made up of a vertical moss garden. Then there are the moveable absorptive panels on top of my vinyl cabinets. There are also basstraps on the rest of the wall to ceiling corners. Total absorption is calculated and then applied, it resulted in great response. Having a symmetry is also great after having the room open on one end at my old setup. The general stereo image is better with symmetrical setup. All in all, I am very happy about the new room. 
kodomort60.jpg
kodomonewroom.JPG



05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 24857
Reply to: 24855
Very nice.
So, basically you built a wall on the right side, separating the listening section from whatever it is behind the wall. A bold move. As the room become slightly smaller and you lost some time for bass dissipation you might try to drop the slope at your bass section crossover. I do not know where you cross (too lazy to look in the thread), let pretend that it is second order 115Hz. Try to switch to 70-80Hz first order and see how you feel. In smaller room this move I feel it works well. You might feel that it would eat some transients, then ide the loading a little (in case you drive the bass section by tube SET). In many cases this will mask out the shorter room reverberation time. 
 
I wonder if you find a way to paint the acoustic foam. I was not able to. The ugly color they do it so annoying. If you find way to turn it to a nicer color it would be so much more attractive. Also, my observation is that if case your room would be large the foam would work better but in case of small room the definers are much more effective then absorbers, not to mention the thy might look better. Your panels are very properly positioned and the combination of absorbers with natural diffuseness of the record shale is very good, still, now much fun would be if the foam would be in natural wood color… 
 
In your posts before you told that you listening spot in the middle of the room and you have space to move your couch behind.  If so I would very strongly recommend to move the horns good 4-5 feet from the back wall and see what happens. You much have much more depth of you imaging and much more complicated layering with this move, try it, you might like it. You would need to reset your toeing of your speaker with this move. As you move the speakers closer to the center of the room try to let then to be pointed at your shoulders, not at your face. 
 
In my view the absolutely best that you have done with your playback and it is something the I never seen before is to make bookshelf perimeter around you listening couch, it is so practical, comfortable and so attractive looking.! I absolutely love it. It also made the whole room feel like a human presence instead of a typical audio torturing chamber. 
 
Regarding the symmetry. There is a community of people I know who brings a lot of argument and practical experiments defending asymmetry in audio listening. They do have point but ONLY in case of phase-misaligned installations. They have phase-random systems and asymmetry helps them, even deeper, to lose phase coherency. My personal experience the in context of phase-align systems a symmetry is very good, in fact the bore anal you go into symmetry the betters result would be. 
 
Anyhow, congratulation with e nice setup. It took for you 3 year, right? I do not want to sound like a jerk and deficit at your parade… but I am so accustom to do so… :-) What I am trying to say. Get a vintage Tannoy Red 10 driver with original crossover and connect it along with your playback, in opposite phase with your MF channels. You might find it worth experiment with.. :-)


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 63
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 66
Post ID: 24858
Reply to: 24857
The room is bigger
The room is actually bigger now (about 75m2) but the whole orientation has changed. The speakers were at the opposite side of the room near the windows. Having windows for a front wall had a detrimental effect on sound in the old layout. The absorption, diffusion and the vertical moss wall combination has a much better response instead. I insert a panoramic photo of the room to give an idea how the new room layout is. However, as the panorama distorts, let me remark, there is more distance from my listening seat to speakers, then from my listening seat to the windows at the back. It looks like opposite in the panoramic photo.

Yes, very very close, I cross second order 110hz! this is what I have as final, great guess... It works great with the room like this.

I have a lot of space behind couch. I tried speakers further away from the front wall and listened. This is about 55cm's away from the false wooden acoustic wall. That wooden wall is also 30cm deep, so the drivers are about 85cm's away from the front wall and with absorption (which kind of creates a deeper effect). 


It took close to 3 years, which is about right, I was not expecting sooner, even without changing components, small adjustments took me a year to have a steady good sound. I still have things to try, but at least now I have a satisfactory reference point I can go back to or refer to Smile 

kodomopanaroma.jpg
05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 67
Post ID: 24859
Reply to: 24858
Very Elegant, and so Reasonable
Things look to be in good proportion. Perhaps you have already tried the speakers off the walls?  I ask because that's how I've always gotten the best sound field/imaging, and generally the best overall sound quality; I move things around until I get acceptable saturation and scale from large and small works.   I guess one negative from moving the speakers away from the walls would be that the listening seats and bookshelves would push in front of the barn door and into the other sitting area?   The glass looks too "right" as it is to add vertical blinds.  In the high end houses around here they use electrically controlled shades that drop from boxes in the ceilings!

Anyway, congratulations!



Best regards,
Paul S
05-17-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 187
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 68
Post ID: 24867
Reply to: 24858
I see the cat...
As you already know Kodomo, I am a big fan of your room...it is beautiful.  Those enormous speakers are so well integrated into the aesthetic that they are not the focal point of the warm and comfortable space.  As Romy says, your room is not a "typical audio torturing chamber" (I laughed out loud when I read that)...really well done!
05-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 63
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 69
Post ID: 24875
Reply to: 24857
Distance to front wall
Here, you can see the distance to front wall. The wall is about 10cms behind the moss garden.About 35cms to the wooden binary diffusors surface. Another 55cm to the drivers and total distance to front structural wall is about 90cm (2,95feet)

Maybe more distance could be better for stage depth or other stuff, but for distance needed for the total integration of the channels and a acoustically good point in the room dictates that this is the furthest they can be. All in all, the sounds are deeply layered, stable and harmonically and timbre wise very balanced. For the centre height of the stage, it is coming from somewhere between the tweeter and jmlc1400 horn, which shows great integration. The vocals and centre located solo instruments are also holographically playing in front of others with distinction when recorded like that without annoying or being harsh. The general decaying sounds, and room reverbs feel like actually decaying in the whole room but with control and no hangover. The most beautiful part is, it feels as if there is no effort in playing, it always feel like there is a lot of headroom (the room helped with that a lot) I am very much enjoying the current setup and listen to long hours without any fatigue. My wife says I have started to listen a little louder but it really is enjoyable to listen a little louder if there are no negative issues to the sound and no fatigue. The purepower also keeps steady sound by providing the same kind of electricity every play (if you know what I mean) which is great and means no depressing days out of trying to figure out what happened to the sound and why! In my case the culprit has been found out to be the electricity quality varying incredibly and measurably day by day.

kodomofrontwalldistance.jpg
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  383638  08-12-2015
  »  New  Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...  Room treatment...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     73  69729  01-20-2016
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1098126  08-03-2007
  »  New  5-ways from Speedysteve7..  Hehe - no invite for you...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  121814  05-20-2011
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