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10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 41
Post ID: 25624
Reply to: 25623
Good dynamic vs sound level
I can hear loud sound from 20w single ended when it drives 92db speaker but i do not care about sound level and the dynamic is important to me.
10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 42
Post ID: 25625
Reply to: 25624
Good dynamic vs sound level
The question I asked was how you arrived at 60w minimum for a 92db speaker which sounded wrong to me and simply doesn’t fit my experience. What rule of thumb are you applying.  
In any case an amplifier’s current delivery capability can have far more impact on the sound than simply it’s number of watts, just as the crossover impedance characteristics can be more important than the measured sensitivity. Tannoys are a bit of a special case in some ways. 
Also could you share the output impedance measurement you referenced for the Model 5? You said it was high output impedance what sort of number are you talking ?
10-08-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 43
Post ID: 25626
Reply to: 25625
Average condition
About importance of impedance curve and current delivery of amplifier i agree you but generally we have some numbers (watt for spl) for average condition. Live or dead rooms and bass extension are also change the numbers .  My numbers come from my experience , for example the living voice 94db needs no more than 30 watt push pull in a 30-40 square meter and 15w single ended is not enough for living voice in 30-40 square meter. 30w single ended is not equal to 30w push pull and i think we need more power for single ended. These are my numbers for average condition :
           .

A 7.5w       101db

B 15w        98db

C 30w        95db

D 60w        92db

E 120w      89db

F 240w      86db

G 480w      83db





In some shows you see 30 watt lamm ML3 is connected to big wilson alexandria and you see most listeners are happy , it seems most listener do not care about dynamic compression and they just only care about sound level and their ears react to sound only when the sound goes to hard distortion.
about model 5 output impedance the factory declared over 500 ohm and max 1500 ohm. I did not measured it . Stereophile measured model 88 . The output impedance was 3.7 ohm for model 88 
        .
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audiopax-model-eighty-eight-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
10-08-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 44
Post ID: 25627
Reply to: 25626
Power levels
I have to say I totally disagree with you on these numbers. Perhaps for some solid state designs (somehow subjectively solid state watts never seem to have as much grunt as valve ones), driving modern multiple-driver speakers where the crossover is a major drag on performance. But the table above effectively rules out real world valve amplification for nearly all real world speakers - which, frankly, is nonsense and bears no relationship to reality of musical enjoyment.

I agree that Living Voice never sound like 94db, but they have never convinced me that their rated 94db is real or relates to any normal sort of measure, they always sound anaemic to me whatever is driving them, barely room filling under any conditions.  So I would say they are an outlier, not really representative. (Awful speakers actually).

I'm not the biggest fan of AN-E's (I think they rely to much on cabinet resonance/corner placement and tend to be a bit one-note in the bass department) but I'm sure  at a typical 92-94db given the model they work well enough with less than 60w! (Do Audio Note even make an amp with 60w?).

I think you need to do some more listening particularly to a wide range of good vintage equipment before you come to such a limiting judgment. 

Not a fan of Wilsons either, they are exactly the kind of horrible multi-driver, life-sucking monstrosities that are killing hifi - sad to see speakers just like them in almost every room at the Munich show. And yes they do need giant amps to wake them up but most of the people who buy them don't take the trouble to explore the alternatives. Anyone trying to run them with 30w is an idiot.

500 ohm nominal seems fine for a solid state preamp, nothing to worry about there, should be happy with any power amp with a 50k input impedance, 100k for safety.  (Real world again).
10-09-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 45
Post ID: 25628
Reply to: 25627
Limited experience
I have heard vintage tannoy red (driven by 30w push pull EAR 861) and vintage tannoy gold (driven by 20w set ongaku japan).  
I think for 92db the 20w is not good idea.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=3746#3746
This is romy idea about needed power for tannoy red (i guess in 2007 the tannoy red played in small room) 

You can also check this 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=3688#3688
10-09-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 46
Post ID: 25630
Reply to: 25628
More on Tannoys
With regards to the links, as it happens, I totally agree that 15in Tannoy Reds struggle to handle complex music. The crossover is too simplistic and the cones too hard to control with a low power amp. Reds can be lovely in a simple vintage system but they don't quite qualify as hifi in my book. Golds are considerably better and work with modern 8 ohm amps (Reds and Silvers are 16 ohm), but an Ongaku - or almost any other kind of low-power SET, regardless of quality - is the wrong thing for them entirely. I know because I have tried it too, having owned 15in Golds for many years. (Not an Ongaku but a Jinro which is much the same thing, made available to mere mortals rather than the super-rich).

in my view the HPD (particularly the 12in HPD) is the best driver Tannoy ever made, never bettered even today. Lots of reasons for that but it is the ultimate expression of the Monitor series, before Tannoy's financial difficulties  led them to start experimenting with plastic cones, cheaper magnets and the like. The expertise was progressively lost after that and never properly recovered.

I did have to laugh at your comment that 20w for Tannoys is 'not a good idea'. Ordinarily I'd agree with you on that, but it's not the whole story. I've been running Tannoys since I bought my first pair with what was effectively my first pay cheque after graduation in the mid-1980s. I've owned them ever since in all sorts of sizes - I've owned Autographs, two kinds of Lockwoods, original Lancasters, Chatsworths, Cheviots, GRFs, and various custom cabinets. My current speakers were a collaboration with Paul Coupe of RFC Audio (probably the top guy out there working with vintage Tannoys) and built to my requirements. I've had more than 40 amps through here, driving these speakers (actually closer to 50 when I go through my list), everything from Chinese cheapies to £60,000 Kronzillas, 3w 2A3 SET to 400w Class D, and all sorts in between, Class A sand amps, Class A valves of various sorts, OTL, chunky AB push pull pentodes, Kondo, AN-UK, Shindo, Leben, ARC, EAR, Pass, C-J, Berning - you name it, it's been here.

My experience is predominantly with vintage Tannoys but on another forum I do belong to a circle of people within which are several who either currently or have previously (before going vintage) had the modern Prestige series so I've heard most of the current models too. I have a soft spot for the modern Canterbury but in my view it's not quite at the level of the vintage drivers.

The big paper cone and the peculiarities of the Tannoy approach to crossovers mean that regardless of the specific model, they are an unusual speaker. They generally need a decent damping factor, but not too much - something 20-50 is normally the ideal (high power solid state in my experience gives you grip but sucks the music out of them - though some way well prefer things that way). For Tannoys generally, 25w of push pull valves will work better in my experience than high power solid state, but there's a point after which even too much valve power is not required. In general, my experience is that single ended amps, valve or solid state, struggle to control the cone. My preferred amp for a long time (about 4-5 years) was a Radford STA100, push-pull KT88. From all my amplifier experience with Tannoys I had come to the conclusion that this was the optimal setup for Tannoys.

Consequently, my current Silvercore 833C SET amps, purchased less than a year ago, were a shock. I tried them out of curiosity as part of my regular auditioning, but being 20w SET I did not expect them to control the Tannoy cones adequately. Indeed at the very margin of bass control they do not have quite the grip of Radford or EAR 100w push pull pentodes, but in every other respect the sound is considerably improved - timbre, presentation of acoustic space, musical communication, naturalism of high frequencies. I think it has something do with the unique power supply arrangement - 2 x 10A at 10V produced by its twin switching power supplies in each monoblock - and the pentode driver stage which uses the ultra-musical EL34. Whatver is the secret sauce, they do not suffer the limitations exhibited by the vast majority of single ended amps driving Tannoys (including Ongaku, Kronzilla and the like). I tried to engage their creator in a conversation about why this might be but he wasn't interested in discussing the design, which I think is unfortunate. I would love to grow my knowledge in this area.

Romy's wet cat analogy is fun and like all generalisations, it has some points of truthfulness but can never be the whole story. I have a deep suspicion of grand ideologies, systems of everything, whether we are talking religion, politics, institutions, or anything to do with art. Systems or models are never complete and there is always room for surprise. Dogmatism is as unwelcome in hifi as it is anywhere else. Actually my experience with Tannoys and Silvercore SET - I am on record elsewhere with a conclusion based on experience that 20w minimum push pull is required to get a proper sound from Golds, double that for HPDs - reminded me once again that there are no absolutes. We are all simply on a journey of exploration. It's something you might want to take into consideration when you comment too.

Anyway my maxim is: beware of hifi salesmen (or self-appointed 'experts' of any sort) who pretend (or perhaps even believe) they know it all - they are talking bollocks and such behavior immediately casts suspicion on anything at all that they have to say.



10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 47
Post ID: 25631
Reply to: 25630
Audio gone!
This thread is becoming more and more similar to threads in Audiogon and other look like sites. But I agree with below comments Anyway my maxim is: beware of hifi salesmen (or self-appointed 'experts' of any sort) who pretend (or perhaps even believe) they know it all - they are talking bollocks and such behavior immediately casts suspicion on anything at all that they have to say.

10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 306
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 48
Post ID: 25632
Reply to: 25631
If our philosophy fits in one thread - is it philosophy?
 ArmAlex wrote:
This thread is becoming more and more similar to threads in Audiogon and other look like sites. But I agree with below comments Anyway my maxim is: beware of hifi salesmen (or self-appointed 'experts' of any sort) who pretend (or perhaps even believe) they know it all - they are talking bollocks and such behavior immediately casts suspicion on anything at all that they have to say.


I find it more useful to avoid some internet people instead of trying to inform them. There is nothing in this thread that is stimulating, but no chance for education either. You are certainly right that this has more to do with Audiogon than the GoodSoundClub.
Instead of talking about hardware, what actually moves us in specific recordings would be more evidence than what I find in most of the posts here.
In any case, the philosophy at the beginning of this thread had some promise. Expectedly, it turned hardware-centric. Oh well, this is the internet. Back to Alpine Symphony, Fritz Reiner, Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Once the glaciers are gone, future generations will not even know what Strauss meant...


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,216
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 49
Post ID: 25633
Reply to: 25632
Is that Opportunity I Hear Knocking?
I try every few years to home in on "leads" to Strauss's "men's chorale" works. I've heard only 2 examples, both while driving, and both times the usual "random selection" with "random explication" from "dee-jays" who hold forth on the "classical radio stations" around here. So, Robin, you brought up Strauss. As a thoughtful musician living in the heart of Straussland, do you know of obtainable examples of this particular iteration of Straussmusik?

Best regards.
Paul S
10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 306
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 50
Post ID: 25634
Reply to: 25633
Strauss Choral works
 Paul S wrote:
I try every few years to home in on "leads" to Strauss's "men's chorale" works. I've heard only 2 examples, both while driving, and both times the usual "random selection" with "random explication" from "dee-jays" who hold forth on the "classical radio stations" around here. So, Robin, you brought up Strauss. As a thoughtful musician living in the heart of Straussland, do you know of obtainable examples of this particular iteration of Straussmusik?

Best regards.
Paul S

Hi Paul,I assume that you mean "3 Männerchöre op. 123 nach Gedichten von Rückert".
This is a very good reading (I own it):
  • Richard Strauss (1864-1949)Choral Works
  • Artists: Iwona Sobotka, Christa Mayer, Dominik Wortig, Konrad Jarnot, Rundfunkchor Berlin, Staats- und Domchor Berlin, Michael Gläser
  • Label: Coviello, DDD, 2012 
  • Order number: 2554613
  • Recorded: 1 September.2013


as is this (heard it on the radio):
  • Probably only available online here: 
  • https://www.br-shop.de/strauss/wagner/mahler- chorwerke.html

Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks/Dijkstra,PeterStrauss / Wagner / Mahler: Chorwerke
  •  900503
  • Recorded:06.02.2012
    EAN/UPC-Code:4035719005035




Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,216
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 51
Post ID: 25635
Reply to: 25634
Jackpot!
Thanks, Robin! I will get right on this! Auf Englisch haben wir gar nichts an dieses!

Best regards,
Paul S
10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 306
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 52
Post ID: 25636
Reply to: 25635
Strauss is very special to me (and a lot of others)
If we consider the time that Strauss was musically active, he offers so much connection to romantic history and brought it into the 20th century. The poet Friedrich Rückert spanned the century before him from the late baroque/early classic to the romantic era. These works are very special.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-15-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 53
Post ID: 25638
Reply to: 25636
Ignore it
This topic is my corner , it is about my ideas , my setup , my news and my story. I write here because i do not want create many new topics. I think it is better to write only here.There is No need to read my topic If you think my topic is moronic or useless or similar to audiogon. Romy is site administrator and he can delete this topic if he think it is useless. ArmAlex you are my close friend i do not like attack you but i just want ask you one question, how is it possible you love impressive sound of gryphon speaker , push pull EAR amplifier ,Acoustic Revive (all are 100% recommended by stereophile ) and you read goodsoundclub and defend romy ideas?If you find a right answer to my question then you will find audiogon is better than goodsoundclub for you.
10-15-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 54
Post ID: 25639
Reply to: 25638
Wow
Amir! we are friends, but it dosen't mean that we must share same ideas. I don't understand what is this all fuss about???
10-16-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 306
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 55
Post ID: 25640
Reply to: 25638
Amir, this is open internet space
Amir, what you have written is not  a philosophy, it is not a path that guides decisions, not a document what gives others insight into what music does to you and why. I have been following your posting, and to be honest, it sounds more like an audio dealer trying stuff out instead of a philosophy of decisions based on your reaction to music. That is fine. One does not „need“ to have defined reasons for anything in life. Labelling a collection of hardware posts as philosophy is a stretch. More interesting would be what is happening in your head when you listen to music. How does your stereo draw you in to the musical picture. How does that change on bad electricity days.
As far as equipment goes, it is not the system that makes my experience high end. My personal highest end audio is when I read a conducting score without anything turned on at all. The event is 100% what I imagine and want, no disturbance by sonic events or problems in the reading. On other occasions, reading the score is too much work and a fine recording paints a different type of picture, with different colors and use of space. Even although I consider my playback to be reasonably „transparent“, it is not detailed like reading a score. It is also not like a live concert, although my listening habits for all three are similar (sit down and listen for 45-90 minutes).
Changes in my system are very seldom, not because that I have the highest resolution or best audio artifacts, rather because a change takes so long to integrate - if it can be integrated at all. I do have a project in my head that is at least 5 years old and it involves the first 1.5 octave. I have tried various schemes but have come to the point that going for Romys DPOLS probably needs to happen first. Currently adding content under 40 Hz makes the playback worse. Either everything gets too soft or too big. Without it, the sense of space makes big instruments big and intimate recordings „smaller“. With the added extension Dietrich Fischer Dieskau gets a mouth as big as the wall. Large orchestral recordings of course are glorious with more space but I am convinced that I do not need to compromise music before 1800 to get that space.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-16-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 56
Post ID: 25641
Reply to: 25638
YES SIR!!!
 Amir wrote:
This topic is my corner
You are completely wrong. When you publish something it becomes open to every critique. There is no safe corner sorry mate.
 Amir wrote:
There is No need to read my topic If you think my topic is moronic or useless or similar to audiogon
You are completely right. But I can't deny that they are fun to read. Meantime my English reading is fast enough to not to consume a lot of time
 Amir wrote:
ArmAlex you are my close friend i do not like attack you
Thank you very much for your kindness.
 Amir wrote:
i just want ask you one question, how is it possible you love impressive sound of gryphon speaker , push pull EAR amplifier ,Acoustic Revive (all are 100% recommended by stereophile ) and you read goodsoundclub and defend romy ideas?If you find a right answer to my question then you will find audiogon is better than goodsoundclub for you.

YES SIR. orders obeyed!!! I moved to AudiogonSmile


10-16-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 171
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 57
Post ID: 25642
Reply to: 25641
Keep going Amir
The guiding lights of the more vocal and philosophically inclined here somehow always lead them to BUY well reviewed, properly expensive, product of the year type of components and the general approach is throwing money on the subject like the rest of the "morons"do. No reason to feel bad about it.Warm Regards, W
10-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 58
Post ID: 25643
Reply to: 25638
Incomplete
 Amir wrote:
This topic is my corner , it is about my ideas , my setup , my news and my story. I write here because i do not want create many new topics. I think it is better to write only here.There is No need to read my topic If you think my topic is moronic or useless or similar to audiogon. Romy is site administrator and he can delete this topic if he think it is useless. ArmAlex you are my close friend i do not like attack you but i just want ask you one question, how is it possible you love impressive sound of gryphon speaker , push pull EAR amplifier ,Acoustic Revive (all are 100% recommended by stereophile ) and you read goodsoundclub and defend romy ideas?If you find a right answer to my question then you will find audiogon is better than goodsoundclub for you.

above is what I can see in the forum, but i received a longer mail via email. Is this my problem or everybody else's?
10-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 59
Post ID: 25644
Reply to: 25642
My history
ArmAlex  
the fun thing is that you read Romy posts here without understanding his ideas and copy paste Romy instructions in your Audio system and the result is lower than those audiogon guys (an example of your audio logic -> you buy gryphon speaker because romy says speaker should be sealedbox). please open your mind and try to find a right way to do audio.

rowuk    
I should Thank anybody for critic if his critic help me to have better look at the subject and I agree the internet is open and every body can share his critic but i also believe many critic are nonsense.

I try to describe my experience in Audio and i share my history .when i started audio in 2002 the audio was in control of 1.morons in internet , 2.magazines , 3.dealers.i have read many internet reviews and i had a accuphase/krell/dynaudio system . me and all of audiophiles in iran were in hell and all were trying to go to paradise with spending more money. it was real hell.
spending money , time and effort had no good result. i remember my cheap sony tape player had better sound than 500k$ audio systems in tehran but i could not believe that. Hans Christian Andersen had a book (The Emperor's New Clothes) , it is our story in audio. no body could confess those expensive Stereophile award products are crap.

I have listed all crap amplifiers i have listened them in iran in this topic.
I remember the first time i heard a good sound was 2008 and it was Audio Note Ankoru. i do not say the sound was perfect but i had a feeling that the sound could be good if Audio Note be in a good demo condition.in 2009 i was in ArmAlex home and that night we pulled speakers to a new place . very very accidentally the sound improved by a wide margin. i never forget that night. the sound was wonderful.
i have searched the internet and i find no result in internet just only in goodsoundclub.
check here
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=2&postID=20617  

my first post in goodsoundclub was about DPOLs.it was the first time we find a site that was different to other sites. I also have listened to romy hardwares like CEC Purepower and it was also wonderful .
I read goodsoundclub and i post here because romy audio results is very effective to me and i have common grounds many times. romy advanced audio to DSET and 6way horn and it is not possible to me to think on that scale but i know his ideas many time is very very effective even in lower scales like my two way system.

my audio story divide to two section, the past time i was convinced the audio is about taste and no system is perfect and audio is a relative subject. after some years i convinced the audio is not relative and the real quality exist itself.


Audio is subjective and it is very complex for most audiophiles and i believe audiophiles with average IQ (intelligence quotient) may could not do it right.

we can imagine the audio is about Data and beauty. "data" means how transparent is the system and "beauty" means how audio reflect the beauty and power of Music.both data and beauty are important but my sonic priority is not "transparency" (please do not mistake transparency with resolution of crap high power ss amplifiers, the transparency is described in Peter Audio Note Uk Article -> Are You on the Road to Audio Hell) , my sonic priority is "beauty".we can not define "beauty" but we can feel it.some times i write about harmonic , dynamic , Image and ... but many times the sound affect our higher perception levels and we can not describe it .(read romy six level article)
I will try to write more about dynamic harmonic image and my micro macro view on sound and about what i need .

I write about Purist , CEC, Purepower, Audiopax and Audio Note just because these tools help me to have a better sound.





10-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 60
Post ID: 25645
Reply to: 25644
Illusion
Amir! Your History!!!???
Until last year you didn't have your own system. And the one you owned in 2002 couldn't listen often because your parents were not allowing you to do so.
Most of your auditions had been at my place. And listened to others' systems for a day or two. I'm not talking just about hardware but also about your music choice for listening and "testing". You couldn't go beyond Dina Krall's "All for you" album's track 5, and Amused to Death track 13.
So don't brag about your knowledge of audio and keep your advises for yourself.
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