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  »  New  A new kid in the block: Sadurni Acoustics..  Axpona 2015...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     21  82517  08-22-2011
02-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 162
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 21
Post ID: 21538
Reply to: 16210
G.I.P. 9700A System
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

These are the G.I.P. 9700A System.
Here are the specs, I asked to GIP some time ago:

Regarding Dimension without horn and Tweeter (only enclosure)

W: 1240mm × D: 1200mm × H: 1120mm  weight: roughly 350 kg / 1 piece

Dimension with full set

W: 1240mm × D: 1200mm × H: 1870mm  weight: roughly 400 kg / 1 piece

 

Regarding minimum room dimensions.

I have experience of install GIP-9700A to room of "4.5m × 5.5m" [ceiling height: 2.5m].

This situations sound was not bad.

But I will not recommend.

I recommend that room of 5m × 6.5m [ceiling height: 2.7m] or more.

 

Regarding “Frequency response”

30 Hz 17 kHz (±5 dB)

25 Hz 20 kHz (±10 dB)

 

Regarding “Efficiency”

116 dB / w / m

 

Regarding to configuration of GIP-9700A speaker system [1 pair]

GIP-9700A                          [Enclosure]                               ×2

GIP-9461                            [Woofer]                                    ×4

GIP-9101                            [Driver]                                     ×2

GIP-9501                            [Tweeter]                                  ×2

GIP-9712                            [Wooden horn]                          ×2

GIP-22A                             [Brass throat adapter]               ×2

GIP-9602                            [Network]                                 ×2

GIP-1-11                            [Attenuator]                              ×4

GIP-24V3A/7V1A                [Field Exciter]                           ×2

 

 

Regarding GIP-9461 [Woofer]

This is 18-inches field coil woofer. [Weight: 30 kg]

As far as I know, this is the strongest woofer unit of the world.

 

Regarding GIP-9101 [Driver]

This is field coil compression driver. [Weight: 42 kg]

GIP-9101 has the top quality and performance of the strongest in the world.

 

Regarding GIP-9501 [Tweeter]

This is field coil horn tweeter. [Weight: 6 kg]

The sounds and appearance of GIP-9501 are referred "the most beautiful tweeter in the world".

 

Regarding GIP-9712 [Enclosure & Wooden horn]

GIP-9700 [Enclosure] & GIP-9712 [wooden horn] are made by Japanese cherry wood.

We did research about wooden materials of many kinds again and again in order to achieve the best sound. And as the result of research, we concluded Japanese cherry wood is the best for GIP-9700A speaker system.

But this wooden material is very expensive.

So we can also make GIP-9700A of another wooden materials as the option.





Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
02-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 21540
Reply to: 21538
Just noticeable
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, xandcg , I do not know the GIP drivers. Ironically that the person who replayed to you was very insisting that his drivers are “strongest of the word”, wish is very damn statement buff he did not manage to get the specifications right. The GIP-9101 driver is not 42 kg but 35 kg. It does not mean a lot but just noticeable.
 
http://www.gip-laboratory.com/2012Munich%20gip-laboratory.pdf


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 162
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 23
Post ID: 21541
Reply to: 21540
They seem a bit confusing.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

Who replayed me was Mr. Shinichi Suzuki, "CEO & President of G.I.P.Laboratory". A week later he replayed me again with total different information and then another time to say the second one have nothing to do with the 9700A System.

A person who already listend to 9700A system (on the youtube link) said it is really really very good. Have all the advantages of horns and little to none of the usual disvantages and work well ever sitting near the loudspeakers. Also, those are the only loudspeakers from G.I.P. that worth the money he said, the others are all problematic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGiytcTQeqk

I head/read somewhere Cessaro use modified G.I.P. drivers when the client want field coils.

IIRC they cost around 250.000€ in Europe.

PS. Just to notice those loudspeakers come like a Ikea furniture, a puzzle.

Cheers!



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
02-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 21543
Reply to: 21541
Cessaro modify G.I.P?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 xandcg wrote:
I head/read somewhere Cessaro use modified G.I.P. drivers when the client want field coils.

That might be very interesting as the greatest liability of largest Cessaro is the cheesy TAD drivers. The fact they claimed “MODIFIED G.I.P. drivers” is kind of interesting as well. In most cased when the modification implied then it means nothing besides that the reusing manufacture wants to be looked upon as “smarter” or “know more” than the original manufacturer. So, in most cases I do not believe in modefications. Well, they might change the mounting plates to accommodate own horns but this would hardly called “modification”


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 162
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 25
Post ID: 21544
Reply to: 21543
I don't know exactly.
fiogf49gjkf0d
True, I don't know exactly what is that modification!

I am not able to find where I saw they modify the drivers but here you can find some pictures of the Cessaro power supply at least and some generic citations:

http://www.audioexotics.hk/index.php?option=com_simplestforum&view=postlist&forumId=1&parentId=11073&topic=true&Itemid=53&limitstart=30

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?27531-Cessaro-goes-Field-Coil!

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?91479-Cessaro-goes-Field-Coil-!

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?12254-Field-Coil-Cessaro-Affascinate-!-!




Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
02-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 21545
Reply to: 21544
“Ralph designed the Brahms as the Liszt just would not fit in my room”
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, the writing at:
 
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?27531-Cessaro-goes-Field-Coil 
 
...is fascinating . If the GIP Labs 594A a replica of the WE 594A then it might be a very interesting driver as 594 was not typical WE’s Vaseline-like driver. Of cause the guy is listening pathetic music and he is a dealer – so any new toy for him will have value and reason. Still that is all that we get. If would be interesting to hear from Ralph  what need to be modified in  594A driver and what he found undesirable in original version. I just wish Cessaro did not give to the products the composer names. I made many times in past this demands but the  low class people keep doing it. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Purite Audio
Posts 20
Joined on 05-07-2012

Post #: 27
Post ID: 21546
Reply to: 21545
GIP
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ralph uses a field coil version of the Supravox driver ,as an option in the Cessaro 'Betas', and has been experimenting with the GIP drivers.To my knowledge the drivers aren't modified,( I would have to ask Ralph to confirm ) but He does build the power supplies for them.I had the opportunity to hear a number of GIP drivers at the Cessaro factory after the Munich show and compare them to some of the many drivers Ralph keeps for evaluation.Keith.
02-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 21547
Reply to: 21546
Good for him.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am glad that he did not stop on TADs and look elsewhere. It is hard however as the demands for better drivers is very low that makes them to be literally 100 times more expensive then they need to be (field coil are very cheap to make) and that understandably drives the total cost way up. If I was in his place and had objective to find a set of drivers that were above average sound capacity and with TAD/JBL wholesale price then it for sure be difficult. I personally do not feel that boutique drivers made by Japanese are a solution; Gamma need 4 drivers, here is where over $100K right there, it makes the whole idea hardly accessible. Yes, there are some who would pay ¼ million for the whole project but it hardly advances the idea of study a proper configuration for horn playback. The idea of accessibility of results is not so stupid. With no public accessibility audio results got concentrated in hands of a few full of agenda people with unavoidable failure of results objective evaluation and loosing control over manufacturing quality. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 162
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 29
Post ID: 21550
Reply to: 21546
Thanks!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Purite Audio wrote:
Ralph uses a field coil version of the Supravox driver ,as an option in the Cessaro 'Betas', and has been experimenting with the GIP drivers.To my knowledge the drivers aren't modified,( I would have to ask Ralph to confirm ) but He does build the power supplies for them.I had the opportunity to hear a number of GIP drivers at the Cessaro factory after the Munich show and compare them to some of the many drivers Ralph keeps for evaluation.Keith.


Thank you for the clarification! Informations from a person whom really know the project is a lot of better.

What is your "feeling" about the comparation between the drivers? Had the Cessaro with field coils, Supravox or GIP, a more liquid sound?

Thanks!



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
02-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Purite Audio
Posts 20
Joined on 05-07-2012

Post #: 30
Post ID: 21551
Reply to: 21550
Clarification
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think it best you speak to Ralph directly ,he works with these drivers every day.I do recollect that inthe case of the Supravox ,where there are permanent and field coil versions of the same driver,Ralph told me that there wasn't a huge difference between the two.Field coils do need to be used with a degree of care, you mustn't forget to turn on the power supply!Keith.
02-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 21555
Reply to: 21551
A huge difference
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Purite Audio wrote:
Field coils do need to be used with a degree of care, you mustn't forget to turn on the power supply!Keith.

Well, yes and no. For sure you should not forget to turn them on but the intelligent way is to feed field coils power supply from the speaker signal. You make the circuit with 10-20 mOhn input in order do not affect the signal in any way and in case any current flow in you turn the field coils power supply for let say 15 min. That all is being done for year in subwoofers… 
 
The true problem however is not there.  As the field coils induce a magnetic field in driver polls the core is getting warmer, particularly in low voltage drivers. The hot driver sound differently then cold one, so in my estimate you need at least 15 min until driver reach own cruse temperature.  Ask me why one would need it if “here wasn't a huge difference between” between perm magnet and field coils….
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 21556
Reply to: 21555
One-Off Drivers, Speakers and Systems
fiogf49gjkf0d
Does anyone really have the resources, and the patience, and the evolved audio/musical discrimination to develop a 4 or 5-way FR speaker system from scratch, including each and every driver? I can actually see a "theoretical" benefit in using field coils for "fine tuning", but the reality is, we mostly just eff around with drivers that other people make, and we never really get everything optimized before we simply settle for something. I have not heard the speakers under discussion, but I have had too much experience trying to "de-construct" and "reverse engineer" good-sounding drivers, and the harder I try, the more impressed I am with anything that actually "works" in any given installation, and the more willing I am to gratefully accept anything I find that "works" for me, regardless of how it came into being. Meanwhile, I take with salt claims that use "statistics" or "historical legitimacy references" to promote expensive speakers, which, in my experience, are more likely to be truly unbearable than carefully-chosen boom boxes, albeit lowering one's expectations does create a buffer here. Yes, it is VERY expensive to actually develop good-sounding drivers and speakers from scratch. But is anyone really doing it, and are the super-expensive drivers really the solutions they purport to be? I sure wish someone had something really worthwhile to even say on this subject, and, more to the point, I hope to hear the results if anything truly worthwhile is available, at any price.


Paul S
02-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 33
Post ID: 21557
Reply to: 21556
Http://www.wolfvonlanga.com
fiogf49gjkf0d
This guy is certainly trying...... What I have heard shows at least speakers that are very listenable
 Paul S wrote:
Does anyone really have the resources, and the patience, and the evolved audio/musical discrimination to develop a 4 or 5-way FR speaker system from scratch, including each and every driver? I can actually see a "theoretical" benefit in using field coils for "fine tuning", but the reality is, we mostly just eff around with drivers that other people make, and we never really get everything optimized before we simply settle for something. I have not heard the speakers under discussion, but I have had too much experience trying to "de-construct" and "reverse engineer" good-sounding drivers, and the harder I try, the more impressed I am with anything that actually "works" in any given installation, and the more willing I am to gratefully accept anything I find that "works" for me, regardless of how it came into being. Meanwhile, I take with salt claims that use "statistics" or "historical legitimacy references" to promote expensive speakers, which, in my experience, are more likely to be truly unbearable than carefully-chosen boom boxes, albeit lowering one's expectations does create a buffer here. Yes, it is VERY expensive to actually develop good-sounding drivers and speakers from scratch. But is anyone really doing it, and are the super-expensive drivers really the solutions they purport to be? I sure wish someone had something really worthwhile to even say on this subject, and, more to the point, I hope to hear the results if anything truly worthwhile is available, at any price.


Paul S



Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
02-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 34
Post ID: 21558
Reply to: 21557
Servo???
fiogf49gjkf0d
Not saying these are not better than most, but too little is said here of objectives, and too much is made of the "quality" of the bits and pieces, themselves, IMO. And servo is nothing new, if that's what this is:

http://www.wolfvonlanga.com/speaker-systems/black--white/

AFAIK, no one with the machinery to do it (all 2 of them...) is making really good cones today, since no one asks for them any more. It looks like a couple of individuals have significant stashes of NOS cones once intended for "Klangfilm", but those are mostly "optimized" for (surprise...) theaters, auditoriums, and stadiums, along with the Kapstan and aluminum VC formers, etc., etc. But then, so many people think of the expensive "commercial" drivers and speakers as being something to lust after, and why not capitalize on this niche market, since it is - obviously - bigger (or at least more lucrative) than the market for evolved Music appreciation from recordings in the home.

Is this the same guy who was earlier stuck on the "heritage"/"tribute" systems?

If this post tinged with bitterness, I am quite jealous of his frames and machining/manufacturing capabilities! It certainly looks like he "could" do it...

Paul S
02-23-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 35
Post ID: 21561
Reply to: 21557
PFB
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rowuk wrote:
This guy is certainly trying...... What I have heard shows at least speakers that are very listenable 

I listened to some of these "Designs" too and for me it is not only Pain For Brain, it is a pale joke. A Fart sounds more real than what I heard in the last demos. Don't know what kind of listener someone has to be to find them good but even the worst Designs have Fan groups.
Sorry, these DIY Idiots (not Langa, he tries to make a buck, but these stupid Fanboys who have nothing but "know" everything better) are a pain for everyone who tries to find something serious.



Dream.jpg



Kind Regards
Stitch
02-23-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 36
Post ID: 21562
Reply to: 21561
I am the dummy!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
 rowuk wrote:
This guy is certainly trying...... What I have heard shows at least speakers that are very listenable 

................ Don't know what kind of listener someone has to be to find them good but even the worst Designs have Fan groups...............



Dream.jpg

A listener like me finds them listenable......... Being a "fan" is a bit too far out, but the played my music very reasonable. Not a girl with a Banjo, but a lady with a lute and some orchestra. Didn't have enough time for anything major orchestral.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
02-23-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Purite Audio
Posts 20
Joined on 05-07-2012

Post #: 37
Post ID: 21563
Reply to: 21562
Rooms
fiogf49gjkf0d
The room at Munich where Wolf was showing was far from ideal, Ralph had one of Wolf's drivers in his workshop.Keith.
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