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07-23-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 163
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 1
Post ID: 25522
Reply to: 25522
Multicellular horns
I have been intrigued by the Altec or similar Multicellular horns for a while. At least, in the midrange application of 500hz - 5K they look very interesting. I doubt of their high frequency capabilities but for midrange duty with a suitable 2" driver, theoretically they should work well, at least in my mind. But I have never heard one so I ask those who have used them: what are your thoughts on them, their drawbacks and optimal application? 
Gera
07-23-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 281
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 2
Post ID: 25523
Reply to: 25522
There is already history here
Look up Romys CETLA91 or a new multicell for Macondo.
There is a guy not far away from me Markus Klug, who builds these. I heard then at his house but there were "non speaker issues" that did not tell me what in the sound could be attributed to the horn. He has considerable international clientele and the workmanship is extraordinary.
https://klughoerner.com


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
07-24-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 163
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 25524
Reply to: 25523
300hz multicell examination
 rowuk wrote:
Look up Romys CETLA91 or a new multicell for Macondo.
There is a guy not far away from me Markus Klug, who builds these. I heard then at his house but there were "non speaker issues" that did not tell me what in the sound could be attributed to the horn. He has considerable international clientele and the workmanship is extraordinary.
https://klughoerner.com

Thank you for the pointers. I have found some mentioning of the multicell that Romy experimented in the main system but from what I gather it did not work out for aesthetic reasons mostly -- and understandably.  So Romy ended up using the multicell in the Cetla system as a way to make the Celta more acceptable in to his ears. However, what if I were to get a 15 cell or similar proportion 300hz multicell without the need to integrate it into existing system. I am asking someone who has experience with 300hz multicell and how to best use it. Is it a good horn to use with large compression driver like JBL 2485, just as example, to use as a starting point of a horn system? The system can be made around this horn. What kind of application would be good for this horn, what kind of sound to expect and how to use it properly in it's optimal range in a domestic setting?
I am imagining 300hz-4khz would be a good start or is this type horn faulty to begin with?
07-24-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 281
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 4
Post ID: 25525
Reply to: 25524
Nice Try
I do not think that you really can trust an answer from someone willing to tell you what to do. Sure, the Klughorn is a great thing, but I have never heard it suitable integrated - which says NOTHING about the horn and driver but a lot about those using it. I have heard them with Altec, JBL, Vitavox, Yamaha and some field coil thingy drivers. Nice horn that needs some nice drivers below and above. I do not think that it is the right place to start a system. What you do from 80 - 300/400 Hz is far more critical.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
07-25-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 163
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 25526
Reply to: 25522
Optimal bandwidth
Not at all looking for suggestions on what to do but to share findings about the optimal use of the multicell midrange horns. For example, I see that Romy has played around with this horn and I am sure listened to it by itself. So what were the finding about this horns capabilities and how did it sound good and not so good?

I imagine, there was a sweet spot for the bandwidth of this horn. It's not full range and it's not good for highs, so what's the upper freq range before this horn starts to degrade sound? Maybe Romy can share his findings.

About your point of what to do below the horn (80-400hz). Well, that is the trickiest of all ranges in a horn system to get right and I do not know. But I am willing to say that if the multicell is good 400-5khz then I can figure out 80-400hz, more or less. 
07-25-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,631
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 25527
Reply to: 25524
Multicells
It certainly has nothing to do with my ear or with being acceptable. We attribute too much attention frequently to a topology/hardware and too little to specific efforts over given implementations. So, what is the subject? The Multicellular horns? I played with them and still own 18-cell horns. It was my second system, for Opera Room and I did not impose such a high demands for it as I use to do for my main audio system. It certainly does not mean that topologically the Multicellulars in disadvantage, it was me who had no needs to take it father then what it was out of box sort of speaking.  
 
I was running my 18-cell with S2 driver. I did not know where I crossed it. I use the default Altec 19 crossover and it was much better than any crossover I did. The S2 was 16R, the Altec 19 was expecting 8R, so it would not be hard to figure out where it was crossed. The Altec was for sure very none-transparent crossover but in case of very aggressive S2, driver by SS amplifier it was a good result overall.  
 
Generally I feel that if the listening distance is far from any nearfield and the room is relatedly big then Multicells can do OK.  Then can do fine as lower MF channel and in few other application. If you do want to play with then then do not waste time and money on vintage WE, RCA, Altec Multicells. The 18 cell horn from them are unreasonably expensive and in my view do not justify themselves. Make the “soft” (non-metal) Multicells by a few guys out there who can keep geometry and the most important fine a proper driver to go with them. The rest is your ears and your hands…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-25-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 163
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 25528
Reply to: 25522
Interesting observation
Romy, your response sheds some light and I find your statement very interesting. 
>> I feel that if the listening distance is far from any nearfield and the room is relatedly big then Multicells can do OK
what do you consider "nearfield" and what is it about the multicell that requires a relatively big room? Those are the type of ambiguous but relevant observations that I was looking for. Is it that the multicell horn create distinct sources of sound that remain identifiable and distractive to you? They do not fully blend into a wholesome source of sound? 
I am not looking for hardware recommendation at all, or a list of compression drivers to use type of horn. I am looking for observations on the multicell horn sound.
07-26-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,631
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 25529
Reply to: 25528
I am taking only about 18 cell only.
Noviygera, I would say nearfield is what is before let say 10feet, but it would be all depends of the size of the whole room, the reverberation time in the room, type of the driver used and many other criteria. I do not know how about the distinct sources of sound. I never experienced any multicell which was properly installed and properly embedded into the room in a holistic fashion, including my own. So, it is hard to judge and my experience with multicell does not go further than “as is” type of experience. From one perspective it should be nothing in Multicells that would distinct it from any other exponential, or whatever profile they run. From another perspective they have own flavor.  Even the fact that a dissent 18 section Multicell with 200Hz cut off is super large and act as some kind of diffractive acoustic island should us to treat the Multicell as a different animal. I still have my Multicell and between the time my kind go to coladge and the time they check me to a retirement home I am planning to play with the Multicells again.  
 
I am sorry the I have to mention it but there is one aspect of Multicells that I feel should not be ignored. Pretend a nice dark room with large 18 cell Multicell, vacuum tune amplifier and an ashtray with smoking my recent favorite Perdomo Double Aged 12-Year Vintage…. Regardless the sound there is nothing sexier than this setting. In that environment I could listed even Horst Wessel Lied and I truly can not take out of account so much inspiring me the esthetics of the Multicells


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-27-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,205
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 9
Post ID: 25530
Reply to: 25529
Pass Band
I was one of the people who bagged on the Altec 811 metal horn in the old thread. I also heard a version of this horn that was supposedly made of tar that had an Altec label on it, and a friend of mine built us a couple of tar copies of the next size up, supposedly 500 Hz multis.  My experience (with Altec drivers) was that the larger horn sounded better at 800 Hz, but not so good at 500 Hz, and the 811 metal horn basically never sounded quite right.  For better or for worse, the slower opening horns are their own thing, and the multis are their own branch of that.  It's expensive playing with that stuff, but that's what you have to do.

Best regards,
Paul S
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