GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

Analog Playback
Topic: Vta adjustment

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Posted by Paul S on 05-10-2008

I'm not sure why my DAC cut out, other than it's a short. Meanwhile, I am listening exclusively to vinyl, as opposed to mostly vinyl. I sure wish I had FM, but no sense worrying about that in these parts, not to mention all the records I've collected, right?

Now that I've got the K&K and VTF, etc, pretty much correct, I am also pretty much stuck having to get VTA dialed in one record at a time. Sure, "optimum" VTA might vary for a given record, depending on the electricity, but the acceptable "range" for all records these days turns out to be much smaller than it used to be, back when my phono stage wasn't so "good". Not only is my stylus the Ortofon "Replicant", but the whole system now either rewards or punishes according to due diligence with VTA, other factors being equal.

The electricity has mostly been bad for several weeks. Today has so far been an exception. It took over 2 hours, but the ML2's finally let go of the sound field and even mono LPs have ~ freed themselvs from the system.

Amazing to hear pretty much what the recording engineer heard when he mixed the sources, for better or for worse.

As I enjoy again the Oistrakhs playing Bach I am reminded what a PITA it is when I loose my way by trying to set VTA before the system lets go, and I am also reminded that the real useful range of VTA is not really that great between the thinnest and the thickest LPs.

However: the range and the "correct" setting are both quite significant because the effect of VTA is quite audible.

No, I don't like futzing with VTA.

But, how not to?

Paul S

Posted by KLegind on 05-12-2008

Hello Paul,

This is my first post so bear with me. I am sure that you are aware of the remote-controlled-VTA arms, (Graham or is it Triplanar?) while I have no personal experience with them I know that they are quite expensive.
An alternative route might be to install two arms with the same cartridge, but with different VTA. I think two settings should cover the majority of records, at least for me they would. There are good arms out there on the 2nd hand market which would keep expenses down. Of course one would have to purchase two carts, but the wear and tear would be split between them, so its no real additional expenditure.

Best
Kris from Copenhagen

Posted by guy sergeant on 05-12-2008
Did you see this piece Paul? http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html I'm not sure what to make of it. We certainly don't seem to suffer with the issues of poor mains to the same degree over here and I found that I can set up my cartridge so that it sounds good enough without having to adjust vta from record to record. If that were necessary, I think I'd lose interest!

Posted by Paul S on 05-12-2008

Interesting article, Guy. Typical of people to pursue something from the POV of reinforcing their own prior observations/investments, with no "control" and no "blind".

Not that I'm any different here. Of course what I am doing is homing in on things I actually hear via my own system. That's how I set VTA/SRA, whatever you call it; with my ears.

And yes, it's a pisser having to dial in each record!

OTOH, locking in is Heaven!

Kris, too bad my Sota won't take multiple arms. I'd love this feature for mono! But this would not nearly solve the VTA/SRA problem, because, despite what our Sherlockean friend hears/does not hear, my own system rewards (or punishes) quite small variations/incremental adjustments to VTA/SRA, so there are too many "settings" to cover with a few pre-set arms. It is not simply a matter of record thickness, BTW, although this is usually an indicator, and making proper general note of it usually helps to get one "in the ballpark".

This is probably not the thread to mention that this sort of OCD activity also springs from a certain type of listening. Mea culpa. But it is hi-fi, after all. For better and for worse I have gotten my system and my listening "skills" to the point where the VTA/SRA thing is part of getting the best performances. Whether this is also the Ortofon "Replicant" stylus, the K&K, the wiring, the TAP, the ML2s, the DEBZs; who knows?

While the issue of optimal VTA/SRA hardly hinges on electricity, the electrical problems do sometimes put a "delta" in play that puts the musical sweet spot at other than the otherwise-optimal Sound sweet spot. In any case, I am still left to search out the sweet spot each time. The listening criteria differ, and it gets easier to do, but the basic VTA/SRA problem remains even with good electricity.

Sure, I could just ignore it...

No, I couldn't!

So, let my experiences serve as fair warning!

Be careful what you try for. You just might get it!

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-12-2008

guy sergeant wrote:
Did you see this piece Paul?

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html

I'm not sure what to make of it. We certainly don't seem to suffer with the issues of poor mains to the same degree over here and I found that I can set up my cartridge so that it sounds good enough without having to adjust vta from record to record. If that were necessary, I think I'd lose interest!

It is probably a good article I did not read it all – from one side I think that I know everything about VTA and from another side I do not need to know more. I have the same attitude – if I need fine-tune VTA for each record then screw the records playing. Some people used the fine-positioning arms and some used different thickness TT mats under the different records. I do not do it. I set VTA for the sensitive needles very exact but only for average records. If my am had the precise VTA setting in run-time then I down I would use it.

BTW, one important moment that people never talk when they talk about VTA precession. If the arm had silicon dumping (and many of them do) then room temperature affect the viscosity of silicon and offset the needed VTA and even VTF.

The caT

Posted by Paul S on 05-13-2008

Needless to say, my arm (the Well Tempered Reference) is all about silicone. And indeed, damping does change - somewhat - with the temperature. However, it takes extreme temperature changes to make me feel the need to adjust damping (which is actually pretty easy to do on my arm); and the house is +/- temperature controled, after all. Further, I have not noticed that there is ever an "optimum" temperature, when silicone is "correct" and I can ignore VTA/SRA. Basically, it's always an issue for me these days.

So far, I am not aware if temperature changes alone make me want to change VTF or VTA/SRA; but neither have I looked for the connection yet. Although it is very easy for me to adjust VTA/SRA, VTF is a pain. Also, I cannot so easily keep track of anything except relative height for VTA/SRA; there is no good way for me to "mark" the height for a given record, to make that setting exactly repeatable.

By the way, I did not have this "problem" at all with the same TT and arm, but with a different cartridge (Grado Sonata), and I did not even worry about it with my present TT, arm, Ortofon 3000 II cartridge and my previous phono stage/pre-amp, a highly-modified Audible Illusions M3A.

That's right, the K&K and the Bent TAP "caused the problems" by making everything so clearly audible.

This would be Life In Hell, for sure, except that the best I'm getting with this configuration is very very nice, much better than before in every way...

(except I miss the peaceful bliss of ignorance...)

Remember when I said I love having a remote for my pre-amp? I think if I had to get up and down for that, too, then I would give it up.

No... I guess it would take more than that...

Paul S

Posted by drdna on 05-14-2008

I also use the Well Tempered Arm, but do not have the patience nor the urge to constantly fuss with the VTA setting. I set it for an average record and leave it alone. For me any degradation of sound quality is not so great and I just try to enjoy the music.

But I wondered about the use of the TAP with a variable impedence as might be presented by the SET phono stage. I always worried that would cause its own problems varying with volume adjustment, the solutions for which yield a level of complexity in the system that is unappealing to me. Of course everything is a compromise, and perhaps the TAP in your system gives a great result.

My handbuilt phono stage is such a big improvement over the old Modulus I ALSO used to own I don't feel necessarily the urge to buy a TAP. maybe next time I am in San Diego I will stop by to give it a listen in your system, Paul, if you do not mind, as I am curious.

I am curious as to what specific things in your system you were seeking to improve led you to put the TAP in your system in the first place though? Can you elaborate?

Posted by Paul S on 05-14-2008

Adrian, I wrote extensively about the TAP in its own thread. Given good electricity, the pairing of K&K and TAP is a pretty clean gain path for the cartridge, with far more range, color, etc. - everything you'd want - in the end than the previous set-up. And bottom line, way more music, as noted. No problems of any kind with the TAP in my set-up, which was +/- optimised for it. It is a neutral volume control that is otherwise a non-factor, as far as I can tell, except as noted later in the TAP thread; no downside here. Electrically it actually acts +/- like a buffer in my case. Again, consistancy and stability with different volume settings is a huge plus, unparalleled in that regard, really. But S&B apparently saw Chapman as a too-effective competitor for their own similar (judged lesser) offering, and they summarily cut off his custom POCC-wound tranny supply, so I don't know if he offers the TAP anymore, anyway. If he does it will use different trannies.

As I have noted above, variation in VTA is simply audibly quite clear now. And now that I can get the FR ambiance and for-me-unprecedented bass, etc., I am simply greedy/OCD about it. I have corresponded with another K&K owner who also noted the audibility of the VTA. I have not used the K&K with any other pre-amp, nor am I disposed to at this point. Remember, my K&K is not stock, but it uses 6DJ8 family tubes rather than stock 6N1Ps, and also amorphous trannies and "special" caps, and also just one fixed mm input. But I covered all that, too, in the K&K thread.

Re: the Well Tempered, to my knowledge only the Reference came stock with easy separate VTA adjustment. The stock Original and Classic require futzing with azimuth at the same time when doing VTA. This would absolutely put the wood to the VTA adjustments for me. OTOH, I woke up last night with an idea for VTA calibration that will at least get me quickly repeatable settings!

Of course you are welcome to come by any time. Please bring good electricity.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-15-2008

MY TT sits next to the heating buttery and I did note that my silicon dumping on 3012 was exposed to temperature variations. Not only that. The silicon must be completely sealed. I do not know how it is made in Well Tempered Arm but in my care, where the 3012’s damper was way opened and exposed to aliments I was forced to change the silicon once per year. Otherwise the dust from the room sits atop of the silicon, shaping a harder crust with density different then pure silicon

Posted by Paul S on 05-16-2008

I just checked the silicone pot, wearing magnifying glasses. The main bath is limpid, as ever. However, some silicone has somehow gotten out of the bath and onto the rim of the tub. Likely it's been there all along, but I just noticed it. This stuff is spread quite thin and its consistency is like the adhesive left behind by old Scotch Tape!

One Well Tempered user told me he liked the way the arm worked in his system, but he quit using it because insects were constantly crawling into his silicone tub and dying in it, like some mini La Brea tar pit. I've never had this problem, with several years use, now; but I now regularly check for the damn bugs!

BTW, I keep a Perspex cover over my TT when I am not using it.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by Paul S on 11-21-2008

Why did I drag this out for so long? The WT Reference arm I use has easily adjustable VTA, and for some time I suffered using a loose L-shaped Allen wrench for adjustments, with no way to keep track of how high the arm was set. Although the arm has a "scale" on one of the right parts, there is no crosshair or adjacent marking on the corresponding piece. So, if I forgot the setting between sessions, then I had to do "macro" as well as micro adjustment by ear. Add bad electricity to the mix and you have the stuff of self pity.

A while back I put a piece of tape on the top of the gantry and carefully dialed in a 200 g record. Then I marked on the tape hwere the free leg of the "L" pointed. Then I did the same with my thinnest record.

I have spent too long guestimating the thickness of records and also the appropriate relative VTA.

Yesterday I finally measured and cut off a short-ish piece of the Allen wrench and put a knob on top of it. Then I marked the knob at the known height mark on the arm gantry.

Today I dug up a dial guage, so now I know how thick the thickest and thinnest records are, and so the approximate relative thicknesses/VTAs/dial settings. I have started putting a symbol relating to the VTA scale on LP jackets hwen I find the correct-sounding VTA. This means I have only "micro" adjusting to do, and that only once, from here on out, at least as long as I keep this cartridge.

Hooray!

Paul S

Posted by Paul S on 01-18-2009

It turns out that I have up to now done a very poor job of guessing a record's thickness just from looking at it or assuming thickness based on the label, so measuring thickness and developing a corresponding arm height adjustment strategy is definitely the way to go.

As a bonus, as "hard" a tracer as my cartridge is, yet there is sufficient slop in its optimal tracking range that I only rarely need to fine tune once I've set VTA according to record thickness.

These two facts alone make predictable and repeatable VTA all good.

The biggest human benefit of quick-set VTA has been more time spent listening to Music, versus sound.

If nothing else, hi-fi has been much more relaxing since I instituted this change.

Paul S

Posted by Paul S on 04-20-2009

Moving to the next obsessive step, I traded my cheap-o dial gauge for a regular (cheap-o) micrometer, and I added some magnifying glasses and a calculator, to try to plot a reliable relative indicator I can use with my existing means of adjustment. Due to the "C' shape of the micrometer's" calipers (as opposed to the dial gauge's fully-parallel caliper edges), I am now (finally...) measuring the records on their sound tracks rather than at their "rims", and I am getting readings within .0001 accuracy.

No, I don't need to get within .0001 to set my VTA. But it is right nice to know the exact thickness of the disc where the stylus actually tracks as opposed to using the rim thickness as the reference point. For one thing, it turns out that the difference between the edge and the tracked "field" is not fixed -- at all. Some records with a fairly thick rim are thin as far as VTA is concerned, and some records hardly differ from their tracked field to their (maximum) rim thickness. Another thing is that a record's thickness generally varies across its tracks, from its outside track to its inside track (!); however, the "field" measurement I am taking now is obviously "good enough", across the LP, while using the rim measurement sometimes found me wanting to make adjustment during play (and screw that!).

An interesting thing came out of the most recent sessions, which included several DGGs. Using my new technique, several of these discs turned out to be a lot thinner, practically speaking, than I ever imagined. Of course, this means that I have had my VTA set too shallow on these LPs for -- decades. So, would you wonder if they generally tended to sound steely! Now, perhaps I should re-think mocking some of the many "Gran Prix du Disque" awards DGG has won?

I have not yet done a thorough-going investigation of all my "bad sounding" labels, per se, to see if some of them can still benefit from a more careful, re-thought VTA; but I'm guessing that more than a few of these "bad" LPs will be exonerated before I'm done checking through my collection.

For those who have just recently joined this weird tale, I have already said that VTA as an aurally-critical issue is fairly new to me. In other words, it never really bothered me this much for many years gone by. However, do not shed tears for me now. Yes, the days of "let it rip" are gone, and likely they are gone forever. But it turns out that I still have an acceptable margin of error/level of comfort with respect to VTA now, as long as I start out with a good, meaningful measurement to begin with.

I don't remember if I have mentioned it before, but so far record thickness has varied by a factor of >2, from the thinnest to the thickest, and they all seem to be +/- OK with the usual (23 degree?) tracking angle. In truth, I don't know what I would do if this last were not the case.

Paul S

Posted by Paul S on 07-18-2009

I finally made a fairly accurate circular "dial" that I divided into 32 sections to use as scale to use with the arm adjustment knob I described earlier. I had been using a piece of tape I had marked and divided freehand, by eye. I had already determined record thicknesses that correspond to points 180 degrees apart on the dial's compass. From this point it was easy to assign a relative record thickness to each of the 32 "spokes" dividing the 360 degree dial. I actually drew my scale as two concentric circles. I pasted the smaller, inner circle on the arm under the adjustment knob This smaller circle is too small to write legible numbers on, so I wrote the derived record thickness numbers on their corresponding "spokes" on the larger, outer circle, which I use for a reference/guide for settings.

As it happens, I have only actually used about 240 degrees of adjustment, from the thinnest to the thickest records I have played since i started this system.

As it also happens, successive marks on the "spoked" scale correspond to .0031" incremental differences in record thickness with this WTR arm, and this has so far gotten me close enough in terms of relative/correct VTA, once I know the record's thickness.

It does not take long to measure a record for thickness and label it. Once that is done, it's done and I can listen lots more, and I can listen to records with less trouble in hot weather now. I very seldom get up to re-set, once I set and start and a measured LP. Basically, it's all good, a very relaxing way to go.

I can't think of any way to improve this system, so from here it's down to observations about the sound of various labels, recordings, curves, etc., and these will appear elsewhere.

Paul S

Posted by Paul S on 12-26-2009

I was just cruising the site, mining it for information (as I often do), when I ran across this "orphaned" thread with the "dangling" posts at the end. I suppose it's time to update this thread and in so doing close the book on it.

Since I wrote the earlier posts in this thread I have found a very practical solution for the "VTA problem" that prompted this thread. The solution is posted in another thread, "At Last, Repeatable VTA". I guess I should have posted the solution in this thead, but by the time I posted the newer thread, I had forgotten about this older thread!

To make it short and sweet, correct, repeatable VTA is the Bomb! Other issues remain once VTA is correct, but the benefits are huge, and very certainly it is one of the top cost/benefit tweaks, if not THE top c/b tweak an analog hacker can easily do. At the very least, finding correct VTA anew by ear with every record is no longer necessary, so it's absolutely a BIG time saver.

I know that some people don't care about this, or perhaps they just refuse to deal with it. When people say they just leave their arms set at one height all the time, I wonder which cartridges/styluses they are using, or what else they are using, for that matter, or how they are listening, that they do not hear or appreciate the difference that correct VTA makes. So far, records in my own modest collection vary from .03" to .0875" in thickness. In my system, .003" arm height differences are plainly audible, once other things are dialed in. Although this small increment rarely makes the difference between "good" and "bad", it might well be the difference between "boring" and "interesting".

Paul S

Posted by Axel on 12-27-2009

and as far as VTA (SRA) goes I'm for the latter.
I read Romy's short contribution and it is what I do, find a good average VTA for a cart --- do some more minor corrections and voila.
If I had to change VTA for every record I'd give up vinyl, maybe also what Romy and some others feel about the subject.
Now, Paul you have overlooked on major, MAJOR, VTA / vinyl interface item ---- the way the actual record groove was cut, it varies by make and brand.
The real anal follower of VTA will HAVE TO mark each record, and independent of mere variation in thickness then find his ULTIMATE setting.
This is easier with a few arms (not more then counted on one hand) and even some of their older versions Graham, TriPlanar are having enough "play" by those micrometer adjusted arm posts to make you wonder if it was truly repeatable after all.
I use various hard-wood shims under my SME V arm (all else proofed too inconsistent in any case) and yet with the same shim I easily get more then one result if measured in terms of 0.1mm fractions.
Lastly with your chronic power issues, you wouldn't even know when you hit the jack-pot setting, e.g. bad power less VTA, good power more VTA, (due to increased harshness of playback) then add the lacquer cutter variations, anything from ~20 deg to 23 deg. VTA) and I agree with your statement: CASE CLOSED.
Greetings of the season,
Axel

Posted by Romy the Cat on 12-27-2009

Axel wrote:
Now, Paul you have overlooked on major, MAJOR, VTA / vinyl interface item ---- the way the actual record groove was cut, it varies by make and brand.

Not only that. Each label brand, different record batches from different periods have different EQ and different level of dynamic compressions. So, there is absolutely no need to look for absolute VTA. A right VTA for a given cartridge with a reference record of reference thinness – it is all that I do and it is all that I feel need to be done. It shall be measurable, predicable and repeatable. Shall it be adjustable on fly? Only if it has a remote control. Come on, loose the VTA subject and get tuners.

Posted by Paul S on 12-27-2009

Yes, Axel, I agree that there may be VTA issues apart from or in addition to the simple record thickness correlation; but this is hardly a smart reason to simply brush off and/or ignore VTA adjustment. Neither does "my arm is hard to adjust" say anything about the relative importance of VTA with respect to sound. Sorry if you feel your arm is "otherwise good", but it is and remains what it is.

As a purely practical matter, knowing where to start and having a simple "system" to efficiently deal with VTA saves a LOT of time and effort in dealing with what is very obviously - no arguments - a Big Deal in terms of sound, once "a certain level" of playback is attained. And generally speaking, the thickness measurement "trick" I have worked out for my arm gets me to a far better compromise than what nay-sayers would dub "close enough", in the first place.

Yes, I do spend about 30 seconds or so to measure and "mark each record" - one time - in a way that tells me where to set the arm height from then on; and it subsequently takes me all of 10 seconds - or less - to set arm height for an already-measured record.

IMO, getting up-and-down or standing-by-the-TT doing on-the-fly adjustments is the stuff of real misery, and the best thing that happened to me this year was to kill this particular Misery dead. Remote VTA? If I wanted to adjust on the fly, this is for certain the ONLY way I'd do it now. But, as it happens, in Reality, even with the Replicant stylus, post-thickness-setting arm height adjustment has only very rarely proven to be desirable; and who needs or even wants another adjustable variable to obsess over while listening, anyway?

Ironically, the VTA versus electricity issue has become far less critical since the "Smart Grid" has almost eliminated the worst electricity, so VTA has been less of an issue where power itself is concerned, these days. More irony, repeatable "acceptable" VTA has yet further lowered the number of instances where VTA and BEP seem to be working against each other to the point where I am only rarely aggrevated by that particular "conflict", since I got "The VTA System". Sure, there are still problems; but they are very rarely VTA problems, and when they are VTA problems then I am ALWAYS right "in the ball park" for a quick solution.

While it's hard to imagine that anyone with good available FM programming would make much effort with anything else, my own current options are CDs and LPs. Since Program is and will always be the reason for hi-fi, I have done the lazy, sustainable version of my "best" to mine LPs for the Music I crave, and reasonably correct VTA is now a simple, logical, repeatable part of the Process.

If to continue with LPs, an easily adjustable arm and a simple, working, per-record VTA correlary are well worth cultivating, IMO.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by Paul S on 09-04-2023

For both people who care about VTA, I offer this cautionary tale:

Today I listened to a 2-LP set: Lynn Harrell and James Levine, Beethoven’s 5 Sonatas for Cello and Piano. As ever, I had set VTA based on the note on the sleeve that tells me the thickness of the LP. In this case, the 2nd disc sounded wrong. I stopped the TT, measured the thickness of the second disc, and the 2 discs were not the same thickness, also not close enough for me to forget about it. I added a note on the second sleeve, re-set VTA for the 2^nd disc, and I re-played the 2^nd disc. All was well. Starting now I will be measuring and annotating all discs in all sets as I encounter them.

Paul S

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