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Topic: Janacek, very interesting view!

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Posted by Romy the Cat on 12-26-2007

I do not do the idiotic quizzes “who is the best” and who would be the top 5 or 10 in some bogus lists but a few days ago I did asked myself who is  among 20 century composers I feel was the most interesting and the most appreciated by me. While I was digging in my sensations I was more and more surprised with myself and with the rational that I was coming up.

I am a big Rachmaninoff devotee but I have to admit that I would have difficulties to name Rachmaninoff as the most interesting 20 century composer. Rachmaninoff in my mind a more like end of 19 century-type of music and whatever he composed later on in his life I am not a huge fan on. Also, Rachmaninoff is kind of isolated in his pianistic geniuses….

Edward Elgar, Sergei Prokofiev and Bela Bartok were wonderful but I do not particularly feel that they are at the necessary scale of magnitude

Igor Stravinsky probably was the most influential but I do not fell him to be too interesting for me. Although he composed a lot of works that I appreciate but he move to symphonic simplisticizm did not make me happy…

Dmitri Shostakovich might be a runner but I do not like a lot of his music and the most important I do not like him. Something prevents me to nominate Shostakovich as the most “interesting” 20 century composer. Unquestionably he was interesting but that interest has some sick subtext that I do not appreciate.

Then Richard Strauss. I found him extremely noble contestant and it would be it for me but then suddenly I came up with absolutely unexpected for myself name - Giacomo Puccini. Can anybody beat Puccini in his pure musical geniuses?

Sure, Puccini is not as complex and “serious” as some other composer but in his music there is that very native, very not-adulterated, almost physiological beautify that were available only for pure “natural” composers - something that Mozart had in 18 century and Mussorgsky in 19 century.  I feel that Puccini, not Richard Strauss composed the most “interesting” music of 20 century….

Sure there is no need for building any artificial musical hierarchy but still it was a big surprise for me when I realized how high Puccini should be in the scale of t”he most interesting composers of 20 century”.

The caT
Posted by JANDL100 on 12-28-2007
In no particular order, just typing them in as I think of them ...

Vaughan Williams (I am a Brit, after all!   Much excellent music, some of it not very well known at all - the symphonies are well known of course (the 5th ranks high among 20thC masterworks in my opinion), his chamber music is wonderful - the string quartets and quintet in particular, the piano pieces have an exquisite simplicity, his orchestral "tone poems" for me truly capture the spirit of England like no other composer has)
Shostakovich (much great music whatever you might think of the man)
Sibelius (the symphonies! - enough said)
Arvo Part (Easy to dismiss, but much of his recent music has a rare beauty about it)
Peteris Vasks  (I've only recently discovered this composer - quite varied and much of interest.  It seems to me to capture the essence of modern music, but in an accessible and very enjoyable way)

My final choice would be Vaughan Williams , I think.   Roger Norrington said of him, "the greatest man I ever expect to meet".
Or maybe Shostakovich .... or ....

My choices necessarily exclude opera composers, as I don't really like or appreciate opera!
Posted by Ronnie on 12-31-2007
I agree, with you both..

I have a soft spot for Bartok, especially piano concertos, and piano+percussion.
Sibelius might feel more significant, but the works I really know and like are from the 19th century.
I have still heard very little by Richard Strauss, but I hope he has made more of the same caliber as "Concerto No. 2 for horn and orchestra" (which I've only heard on the radio once).
Rachmaninov: Great and spectacular, but I'm sort of content with knowing that his piano concertos exist. I don't often feel it is necessary to play them.

What do you know -the 20th century music that I most often feel an URGE to play is a "best of Puccini arias" or something, with Montserrat Caballet.
I don't often dig opera either, except for those cheap thrills. ;-) Perhaps because I don't have a complete Puccini opera, only a big slice of Tosca.

Bartok and Rachmaninov are favourites ...so far
Posted by drdna on 01-01-2008
I am surprised not to hear mention some of my favorites: Karol Syzmanowski, Leos Janacek, Gustav Mahler, Claude Debussy, Jean Sibelius, Charles Ives, Arnold Schoenberg, Edgard Varese, Anton Webern, Kurt Weill, George Gershwin, Alfred Schnittke, etc. OR the many composers living and composing today, such as: Krzysztof Penderecki, Sofia Gubaidulina, Witold Lutoslawski, Carl Vine, Einojuhani Rautavaara, etc.

They all have been revolutionary in their own ways, which to me I find musically very interesting, and all of them have certainly expanded my ability to perceive meaning and emotion in music.  It seems a shame to stay only with the most mainstream and conservative composers.

Adrian
Posted by JANDL100 on 01-01-2008
Sibelius was on my list, as was living composer Peteris Vasks.
Posted by el`Ol on 01-15-2008
There are Penderecki recordings sold under the Polskie Nagrania label that are also very interesting from an audiophile point of view. My favourite among the latest 20th century (and today) composers is Kaija Saariaho.
Posted by op.9 on 01-23-2008
I also thought this question was kind of idiotic... until I noticed that its really been bugging me for a few weeks...

what are the rules for a C20 composer? Died after 1900? If so....

I've been fighting between Mahler and Janacek. I can make a watertight case for either. But, from a C21 perspective, Janacek is the one who fundementally changes the way we listen to music itself - single handed. Did any other C20 composer do that ?

 
op.9
Posted by Romy the Cat on 01-23-2008
 op.9 wrote:
But, from a C21 perspective, Janacek is the one who fundementally changes the way we listen to music itself - single handed. Did any other C20 composer do that ?
James, could you elaborate about your view on Janacek? I know his works but I do not perceive him in the way you do, I rather put Mahler at the pedestal of “fundementally changes the way we listen to music itself”. Perhaps I need to educate myself more about Janacek or you perhaps you might give some pointers….

Thanks, The cat
Posted by op.9 on 01-23-2008
Well, I found Janacek strange and unfathomable. I was brought up on Haydn-Beethoven-Schubert-Brahms-(Mahler)-Schoenberg route... so I had no entering point for Janacek. I also loved Dvorák and Smetana... but this was no help either.. (its only now I can see the connection)
So, luckily I had an 'in at the deep end' experience with the 2nd quartet 'intimate letters' . You simply cant miss what this piece has to say. And I was with it - completely. but it went against all the 'logical understanding' I knew. Rhetoric is turned on its head! Repetition and obsession have different or even opposite meanings from the classical tradition. And there is no preparation for this. You either get it or not. Same as much (serious) new music written since 1980?
I had to throw out all sorts of preconceived ideas about how music actually works. Since then I've gradually tried to re-rationalise some of it... not always very successfully. To me, Janacek is like a compilation of all those 'special Mozart phrases' where he sums up the universe with a moment of genius. Nothing is unimportant - everything is chocked with meaning. We can easily get side tracked by the folky nature of it all - nothing really fundamentally to do with it...

any use?
op.9
Posted by Romy the Cat on 01-23-2008
To be serious - it is interesting, I never got it from Janacek. I, kind of as you said always get “operatic-peasant” feeling from Janacek, though I do admit that in his better works he is more loaded. Those supper-meaning summarizing moments, I actually never got it from Janacek but from others, in fact very similar feelings, Nevertheless, like with everyone else, the pool is constantly changing and since I was able to sense the sensible the meanings ceased to have authorship. Anyhow, when I strop to humiliate myself with the damn amplifier project and put the playback back I will I will pay more attention to Janacek. Buy the way, since you discover “it” in Janacek then did you begin to be more sensitive to the similar “it” in other composers/compositions? The reason I asked because I have big theory that “it” was not composed but rather was “heard”. It goes along well with Tarkovsky views of discontinuity of experiences…

The Cat
Posted by op.9 on 01-25-2008
Buy the way, since you discover “it” in Janacek then did you begin to be more sensitive to the similar “it” in other composers/compositions?

Of course. I find when I discover a new 'it' - I then find/feel it all over the place. And as a complete Haydn nut, I think I've seen new meanings for some of his 'folksy' ways too - after immersing myself in Janacek's 'on an overgrown path' (a huge great towering masterpeice!) Great music works on us backward and forwards.

'The reason I asked because I have big theory that “it” was not composed but rather was “heard”. It goes along well with Tarkovsky views of discontinuity of experiences…

I'll have to read this Tarkovsky chap - can you point me to an article?
Of course, no meaning can be 'composed' - all music comes alive form the new moment of relisation, and has new meaning derived from this new, instantaneous performer/listener/environment/state of the world combination. Our experience/knowledge/emotional-knowledge are necessarily completely different both from the those of the composer, and from when we heard/performed the piece the last time. Even the musical logic of the piece (which IS composed) appears to be ever changing to an alive musician/listener. Janacek turns rhetorical logic on its head, often compressing it, (is he the most compressed composer after Webern and some of Beethoven?) and even making harmony make us feel what we shouldn't!

It worries me that we're not talking about Stravinsky


op.9
Posted by Romy the Cat on 01-26-2008
 op.9 wrote:
Of course. I find when I discover a new 'it' - I then find/feel it all over the place.
Yep, it works like some kind of cipher, if you once get the keys, then it is no problem to read the “code”
 op.9 wrote:
I'll have to read this Tarkovsky chap - can you point me to an article?
I do not know what to get it in English, You might try from here, it is very badly translated but it better then nothing
Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-17-2008
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18978616&ft=1&f=10003
Posted by Romy the Cat on 01-16-2010
fiogf49gjkf0d

 op.9 wrote:
Well, I found Janacek strange and unfathomable. I was brought up on Haydn-Beethoven-Schubert-Brahms-(Mahler)-Schoenberg route... so I had no entering point for Janacek. I also loved Dvorák and Smetana... but this was no help either.. (its only now I can see the connection)
So, luckily I had an 'in at the deep end' experience with the 2nd quartet 'intimate letters' . You simply cant miss what this piece has to say. And I was with it - completely. but it went against all the 'logical understanding' I knew. Rhetoric is turned on its head! Repetition and obsession have different or even opposite meanings from the classical tradition. And there is no preparation for this. You either get it or not. Same as much (serious) new music written since 1980?
I had to throw out all sorts of preconceived ideas about how music actually works. Since then I've gradually tried to re-rationalise some of it... not always very successfully. To me, Janacek is like a compilation of all those 'special Mozart phrases' where he sums up the universe with a moment of genius. Nothing is unimportant - everything is chocked with meaning. We can easily get side tracked by the folky nature of it all - nothing really fundamentally to do with it...
op.9,

if you are in Janacek then my local WGBH starts tomorrow a 3 days Janacek Orgy. Their on-line feed is available

 http://www.whrb.org/

The program timing is on Boston time, GMT-05h

Sunday, January 17
1:00 pm THE LEOS JANACEK ORGY

Leos Janacek lived from 1854-1928, but it was only in his later years that he began to be recognized widely for his original

and compelling music. Even then, performances outside central Europe were rare until advocates of the last few decades brought his music to repertory status. This orgy surveys Janacek’s music, and it also acts as a tribute to his most important and influential modern interpreter, Sir Charles Mackerras, who turns 85 this year (in November). (We also pay tribute to the late soprano Elisabeth Söderström with several operas and other music.) Affected by his experience as a boy chorister, Janacek went on to write vocal music that reflected the rhythms of Czech speech, but all his mature music gives little doubt of its origins, and today it is recognized as one of the great bodies of musical expression.

c. 1870?: Graduale in festo purificationis B.V.M. (Suscepimus); Válek, Prague Chamber Choir (Supraphon)

1873: Ploughing; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

1874: Graduale (Speciosus forma); Válek, Prague Chamber Choir, Ksica (Supraphon)

c. 1874: Introitus (in festo ss Nominis Jesu); Válek, Prague Chamber Choir, Ksica (Supraphon)

1875: Benedictus; Válek, Prague Chamber Choir, Ksica

1875: Exaudi Deus; Válek, Prague Chamber Choir (Supraphon)

1875: Exaudi Deus (second version, with organ, rev. 1877); Válek, Prague Chamber Choir, Ksica (Supraphon)

1875: Prelude (Overture) for Organ; Tuma (Supraphon)

1875: Varyto (Lyre) for Organ; Tuma (Supraphon)

1875: Chorale Fantasia for Organ; Tuma (Supraphon)

1877: Suite for Strings;Marriner,Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra

1878: Idyll for Strings; Schwarz,Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra

1879: Romance for Violin and Piano; Suk, Panenka (Supraphon)

1879-80: Three Fugues; Kahánek (Supraphon)

1880: Theme and Variations for Piano, Op. 1; Firkusny (DG)

3:00 pm

1880: Dumka for Violin and Piano; Suk, Panenka (Supraphon)

1883: Ave Maria (Byron); Darlington, Choir of Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford (Griffin)

1884: Adagios 1 and 2 for Organ; Tuma (Supraphon)

1885: Four Male Voice Choruses;Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir

c. 1886: In Memoriam for Piano; Adès (EMI)

1887-8:

Sarka (rev. 1918-19, 1924-25); Urbanova, Kusnjer, Brezina, Straka, Mackerras, Prague Philharmonic Chorus, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra (Supraphon)

1888: Three Male Voice Choruses; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

1889: Little Queens (traditional songs, accompaniment by Ja-nacek); Cerny, Severacek Children’s Choir, Barton (Matous)

1891: Serenade (or Suite), Op. 3; Pesek, Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra (Records International LP)

1891: Adagio for Strings; Jílek, Brno State Philharmonic

Orchestra (Supraphon)

1891: Lachian Dances; Serebrier, Czech State Philharmonic

Orchestra (Reference Recordings)

6:00 pm

1891:

The Beginning of a Romance (Pocatek románu); Janská, Krejcik, Prybl, Jílek, Brno Janacek Opera Chorus, Orchestra

1888-92: Moravian Dances; Pesek, Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra (Records International)

1893: Our birch tree; Garland; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

1894: Jealousy (Zarlivost), Overture for Orchestra (original Pre

lude to Jenufa ); Mackerras, Czech Philharmonic (Supraphon)

1896: Lord have mercy (Hospodine!); Wysoczanská, Mrázová, Blachut, Jedlicka, Pinkas, Prague Philharmonic Choir, Prague

Symphony Orchestra (Supraphon)

c. 1897: Cantata, "Amarus" (Vrchlicky) (rev. 1901, 1906); Nemeckova, Vodicka, Zitek, Mackerras, Czech Philharmonic Chorus and Orchestra (Supraphon)

8:00 pm

1903: Elegy on the death of my daughter (Elegie na smrt dcery Olgy) for Tenor, Chorus, and Piano (rev. 1904); Zídek, Veselka, Prague Radio Choir (Supraphon)

1894-1903:

Jenufa – Her Foster Daughter (Jeji pastorkyna) (rev. before 1908); Söderström, Randová, Mrazová, Soukopová, Ochman, Dvorsky, Zitek, Jedlicka, Mackerras, Vienna State Opera Chorus, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Decca)

1903-05:

Fate (Osud) (rev. 1906-07); Field, Harries, Langridge, Bronder, Kale, Mackerras, Welsh National Opera Chorus and Orchestra (EMI)

Monday, January 18
10:00 am THE LEOS JANACEK ORGY ORGY (cont.)

1898: Folk Poetry from Hukvaldy; Struplova, Predota, Skoumal

1899: Serbian Kolo; Jílek, Brno State Philharmonic Orchestra

1899: Cossack Dance; Jílek, Brno State Philharmonic Orchestra

1901: Our Father (Otcenas; rev. 1906); Svejda, Veselka, Prague Philharmonic Chorus, Tvrsky (Supraphon)

before 1903: Constitues (rev. 1903); Válek, Prague Chamber Choir (Supraphon)

1904: Hail Mary (Zdrávas Maria); Darlington, Choir of Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford (Griffin)

c. 1904: Moravian Dances for Piano; Adès (EMI)

1904: Four Moravian Male Voice Choruses; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

1905: Sonata 1.X.1905; Firkusny (RCA Victor)

1906: Folk Nocturnes; Cerny, Severacek Children’s Choir, Barton (1, 2, 4, 6) (Matous), Peckova, Lapsansky, Prague Philharmonic Chorus (3, 5, 7) (Supraphon)

1906: Teacher Halfar; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

1906-07: Marycka Magdónova; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir

noon

1907-08: Mass in E-flat (ed., compl. Wingfield); O’Donnell, Choir of Westminster Cathedral (Hyperion)

1901-08: On an Overgrown Path for Piano; Schiff (ECM)

1908: Moravian Folk Poetry, exc.; Struplova, Predota, Skoumal

1909: Six Folksongs; Kusnjer, Lapsansky (Matous)

1909: Seventy Thousand; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

1909: Christ the Lord is Born (arr. for piano of Czech carol); Adès (EMI)

1910: Veni sancte spiritus; Válek, Prague Chamber Choir

(Supraphon)

1910: Fairy tale (Pohádka) for Cello and Piano (early version, 1910, rev. 1912); Isserlis, Mustonen (RCA Victor)

1911: There Upon the Mountain (Na Soláni Čarták), cantata; Blachut, Pinkas, Prague Philharmonic Chorus, Prague

Symphony Orchestra (Supraphon)

1911: Moderato for Piano (publ. 1911); Adès (EMI)

1912: The Fiddler’s Child, ballad, symphonic poem; Belohlávek, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra (Chandos)

before November 25, 1912: In the Mists for Piano; Firkusny (RCA Victor)

1914: The Quilt; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

1914: The Eternal Gospel (Vecne evangelium); Wysoczanská, Blachut, Pinkas, Prague Philharmonic Choir, Prague

Symphony Orchestra (Supraphon)

2:55 pm HARVARD HOCKEY (see schedule)

Because of an editing error, this was omitted from the printed

Guide, and it will affect the time of music before 5:00 pm.

5:00 pm (time approx.)

1908-17:

The Excursions of Mr. Broucek ; Vacík, Haan, Petrik, Straka, Janál, Plech, Belohlávek, BBC Singers, BBC Symphony Orchestra (DG)

1915-18: Taras Bulba, Rhapsody after Gogol; Mackerras, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (London)

1918: Czech Legion; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

7:00 pm

1917: The Diary of One Who Disappeared, early versions of two songs; Bostridge, Adès (EMI)

1917-19: The Diary of One Who Disappeared; Haefliger, Griffel, Kubelik, women’s chorus (DG)

1914-21: Violin Sonata; Suk, Panenka (Supraphon)

1919-21:

Kat’a Kabanová ; Söderström, Kniplová, Dvorsky, Krejcik, Jedlicka, Mackerras, Vienna State Opera Chorus, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (London)

Tuesday, January 19
noon THE LEOS JANACEK ORGY ORGY (cont.)

1916: Detvan Brigand Songs; Kusnjer, Lapsansky (Matous)

1916-17: Five Folksongs; Kusnjer, Lapsansky, Prague Philharmonic Chorus (Matous)

1920: The Ballad of Blanik, symphonic poem; Waldhans, Brno State Philharmonic Orchestra (Crossroads LP)

1922: The Wandering Madman; Máti, Moravian Teachers Choir (Naxos)

1923: String Quartet No. 1, after Tolstoy, "The Kreutzer Sonata"; Smetana Quartet (Denon)

1923: Fairy tale (Pohádka) for Cello and Piano (1923 revision of 1910-12 work); Pergamenschikow, Schiff (London)

1923: The Danube (Dunaj), symphonic poem (completed by O. Chlubna from sketches); Pesek, Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra (Records International LP)

1:30 pm

1921-23:

The Cunning Little Vixen Popp, Zigmundová, Mixová, Marová, Jahn, Randová, Blachut, Krejcik, Novak, Zitek, Jedlicka, Mackerras, Vienna State Opera Chorus, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (London)

3:15 pm

1923-25:

The Makropulos Affair (Vec Makropulos); Söderström, Czaková, Blachut, Dvorsky, Jedlicka, Mackerras, Vienna State Opera Chorus, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (London)

1924: Youth (Mládi) for Winds; Melos Ensemble (Angel LP)

1925: Concertino for Piano, Strings, and Winds; Crossley,

London Sinfonietta (Decca)

1925-27: Nursery rhymes; Atherton, London Sinfonietta Chorus,

London Sinfonietta (London)

1926: Capriccio for Piano, left hand, and Winds; Crossley,

London Sinfonietta (Decca)

6:15 pm

1926: Glagolitic Mass; Söderström, Drobková, Livora, Novák, Mackerras, Czech Philharmonic Chorus and Orchestra

(Supraphon)

1926: Sinfonietta; Rattle, Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI)

1927: Andante for Piano; Adès (EMI)

1927-28: Violin Concerto, "Pilgrimage of the Soul" (sketches, compl. Stedron, Faltus) ; Tetzlaff, Pesek, Philharmonia

Orchestra (Virgin)

7:45 pm

1927-28:

From the House of the Dead ; Zahradnicek, Zidek, Zitek, Jedlicka, Svorc, Janska, Mackerras, Vienna State Opera Chorus, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (London)

1928: String Quartet No. 2, "Intimate Letters"; Janacek String Quartet (Crossroads LP)

1928: Reminiscence (or Recollection) for Piano; Schiff (ECM)

1928: Incidental Music for

Schluck und Jau ; Mackerras, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra (Supraphon)

1928: Two short pieces for piano: The Golden Ring and I Wait for You; Adès (EMI)
Posted by Romy the Cat on 10-26-2010
fiogf49gjkf0d
op.9, have you heard this:

http://shellackophile.blogspot.com/2010/10/janaceks-confidential-letters_25.html

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