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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-23-2017
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It is not secret that Stefano Bertoncello loves to appreciate
Goto and is very prolific Goto devotee. Some people love to be groupies of some
cars manufactures, or football teams or political parties. I never associated with any “group identity” and
even the tuition for me to be align with any groups make my independent spirit
to hurt. Stefano published at his blog an article about a beloved by him Japanese
Goto system that I find worth to observe:
http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2017/05/1.html
I am perfectly OK with Stefano
love what he loves and his admiration of the installation is not the subject of
my criticism. Would Stefano be a “professional reviewer” then I would use harsh
language to describe his comment but as a private person writing at his own
blog he is perfectly fine to express whatever he wish a I personally do grad
that he liked the sound from the playback.
However, as I person who is trying to advocate some kind of
hors design maturity I feel that I need to make some comments. You, see the a maturity
is an opposition to immaturity and an immaturity, according to Immanuel Kant’s “What
is Enlightenment”, is a refusal to use reasoning. So, I would like to observe
some reasoning in the Mr. Kato Goto installation.
Again, I have advocated this subject many times: reasoning needs
to be proportional to spent efforts. If one is listening a table radio of a single
2-way stereo-box then it indicates a non-pretensions approach and there is absolutely
no reason to demand anything from the owner of the playback. If a person however
spent years of own life and many hundreds thousand dollars to build an elaborate
public installation then it is a very different matter. No one want to be judgmental
about the personal motives but we are perfectly might to learn about objectives,
means, results and the reasoning of what
was accomplished. So, what Mr. Kato expressed in his Goto installation?
I do not see anything but the unfortunately-common for the Goto
owners as groupies immaturity.
Mr. Kato stack up a whole bunch of horn in big random pile,
screw a accidental Goto drivers that much by frequency range, connected everything
with branded crossover and he feel that it is some kind of presumption of Goto reasoning.
Let to leave the time alignment problem outside of the attention, there is nothing
to talk about it. I am sure Stefano would not drive his car with valves not synchronized
by timing belt or at least would not claim that it was the best ride of his
life :-), the most interesting was the diagram how the system is organized.
The Mr. Kato multiple sources run into Goto EPH-2002 preamp.
Then it goes into active crossover EPH-4002. This is ACTIVE devise that shall
have two buffers for input and for output. The input has to be buffered as the
filter shall ride decupled from preamp output and the output shall be buffered
as the crossover need to see a stable impedance and to drive multiple amps and
cables. The insult the injuries is that EPH-4002 has an ugly RC filtration. Again,
all of it would be fine for $500 table radio, or for $50K Las Vegas high fir
showroom or for $250K playback of another “industry reviewer” but for more of
les self-respected individual who use high-end audio reasoning I would ask questions.
1)
With your wonderful Goto drivers do you hear the
ugly consequence of RC filtration?
2)
Why do you need to use superfluous and redundant 2 extra active stages in your crossover if you
implement multisampling, have stable permanents load and the crossover might be
very effectively be done no passive filtration against amplifier, particularly since
you use a DC preamp and output impedance of your preamp is not a factor.
3)
You use an additional 6kHz filter for upper channels
at the EPH-3002’s input, Why now to put there second order phase-minimal filter
in order do not pass the signal across the channel dividing buffers of the EPH-2002?
4)
Where are high-pass filters that unload the bass
from bass drivers?
So, in my view, if to remove from the picture that fact that
Kato-san uses expensive drivers and generally positively use multi-amplification
(in his case he used are SS amplification and there is no need to be bothered with
DSET concept), the rest of his audio decisions make him no different than a
typical DIY-audio-centric Iowa hoodlum dumps in his garage a random PA horns
and pitches it as a newer invention of Amsterdam Jew (Plagiarism from Marques)..
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
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Posted by xandcg on
05-23-2017
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I saw some videos of that system some time ago.
One thing about GOTO, they ended the production of the SG146xxx driver, what probably was their most interesting driver...
Cheers!
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-23-2017
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Hm…m… I do not know how about that.
Well, the SG146XX
where the most interesting from one perspective and the most problematic from
another perspective. Goto, never gave to SG146 an option to moderate resonance
frequency and without it I feel it a great waste of the drivers. The fact that
they did not have the provision to do mitigate Fs is indication to me that they
have very little practical understanding how compression drivers are loaded.
The fact the Goto own horn were very bad is just an additional evidence of it.
The idea to have ultra-low
mass and well damped diaphragm with super powerful magnet is not bad idea and a
few Japanese companies did ii: Condo. ALE, GOTO, Onken, YL. It is arguably
beneficial for higher frequencies but I feel that it is a bit dubious for LF.
If you play with electromagnet driver then you might learn that whatever
combination of current, coil turns, voltage you have you will not be able to
get proper harmonics at lower end if you have overly stiff diaphragm, In my experiment
I always was driving my electromagnets down 1,4T-1,6T to get proper sound at
lower MF as at 2.0T of higher I was getting
very impressive HF and too “firm” lower end.
I was trying to advocate this point a few times and the last
time was in the Murat’s thread, the Moscow guy who was trying to use SG146 with a quarter of 40Hz horn but he
was kind of idiots and was impervious to anything that required an audio
IQ high then the side of own shoe. Still, the experience of that Moscow dude
(the thread is somewhere here) was wonderful illustration to my sentiment. I am
not the person who would judge about Sound of playback based upon YouTube videos,
they all horrible, including my own. Still, if you listen ANY of the YouTube videos
where the bass compression drivers used (including the Kato-san's and the Russian
guy) then you can very clearly hear the signature sound of the compression bass
driver with over-controlled diaphragm. I feel that there IS a way to deal with
it but no one does and it looks like no own hears it among the Goto users.
So, for sure that SG146XX is unique driver but so far I do
not see the Goto users convert the drivers into unique sonic results.
The Cat
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Posted by martinshorn on
05-23-2017
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Hi Romy
That's an interesting point! Very interesting. Why mids and highs should have a super light membrane and strong magnet to follow the rule of precise movement, speed, resolution, etc....While in lows its better to run muddy with heavy soft mass and weak magnets?In general the same rule should apply. But in respect to the wavelength size should increase. Mass follows size so unpreventable higher, but ideally proportional to the size.
I do agree on firmness. running my Khorn with a Fostex PA38, thats got a super light 15 inch paper straight cone, 80mm coil with short winding for only 1mm xmax, incredible 70 grams mass including all moving elements plus airload. It is firm and i consider the firm lean perception while same response as a sign of clean, faithful precision, missing the "boom".
!!
Cheers Josh
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-23-2017
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Josh, I do not have a
definitive answer to this question with witch I feel comfortable. I need to say
that I had a multiple experiments in multiple audio fields and I always felt
that excessive or too limited magnetic force is not always complimentary and it
should be a proper balance between magnetic force, suspension, moving mass, damping
methods, driver loading mechanically and electrically. So, if you take under consideration
and formulate an absolute perfect magnetic force per a given environment then
you very soon discover that this “absolute perfection” is achievable only for a
single point in frequency response. An octave upper or lower you are not in
ultimate magnetic force vs environment ratio. Well, it is very similar to many
other moments in audio.
Answering the question you
ask my speculation would be that here we have in place a phenomena of a moving
mass projected to minimum currents. To drive ultra-low mass HF diaphragm you
need a few mV and the diaphragm exert pretty much with no mechanical inertia.
To drive a bass driver with the same minimum voltage you face much larger
excursion of diaphragm and consequentially you face much heavier voltage rollback
from the diaphragm pulled back by suspension. So, we flood the bass driver with
more power (same voltage more current) to flood a driver with amp loading. To a
degree the effect goes away in you runs positive feedback in the amp and drive
the amp with a negative impedance, then you can magnetize the driver as much or
as little as you wish: the effect will me much less prevalent. Well, to a degree you can mitigate the effect of
overly-manganesed bass drivers by idling the driver loading (by the amp) but I personally
did not make those experiments and for me it is pure hypothetical presumption.
I think it should be difference between properly magnetized bass
drivers and over magnetized bass driver but idled loaded. It should be similar
to dropping VTF for .2g and changing at the same time VTA for a degree. But is
it impossible to foresee how it will be in case of a given compression driver. Unfortunately
I do not see any serious bass compression drivers users out there who would go
for sensible bass compression drivers experiments. I do not particularly blame
them as it is a hugely expensive and very time intensive labor of love that
will hardly bring any gratification besides the admiration of a few obscure audio
lunatics, like me.
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Posted by martinshorn on
05-24-2017
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hi Romy! Good thought with the current on the damping...
I had another thought. High excusion might create lots of distortion in a compression chamber. No surprise.
But in my oppinion the sizes are often not in proportion. Lets calculate...
If the membrane radius doubles each octave we go lower, the excursion can remain small.
Respectively all other values should remain the same. Including perception of quality.
No one would run a 1 inch driver down to 500Hz but huge excursion... by driver i mean membrane, throat of course half then.
In the system i plan, i want to do it proportionally. And also follow some nice thoughts of the Vox Olympian. It reduces stress by running drivers with high crossover. It should look linear like:
10k XO 1 inch membrane
3k XO 2 inch
1k XO 4 inch
So far all JBL Alnico compression drivers. Now how to continue?
Well down to 300 i have to double again. 8 inch then. No compression drivers in that size. The closest imho would be the Lowther pm4a with its monster alnico. We have to develop our own Phaseplug to make it a compression chamber. I plan to use an 30 inch horn then.
Next step is down to 100 cycles. Doubling linear means a 15 inch driver. In Horn. Could be a Klipsch Corner. Only thing missing is a proper compression and Phaseplug which i have to build first.
Then the last octaves would require double. But as the horn wont fit into regular real estate, we loose 12dB or more. So 4 times again. Which means 8 times in total. Would result in 120 inch. Ok doesn't exist for good reasons.
So we can only use closed cabine with multiple drivers.
Taking 15 inch as an example would mean 8 times 15 inch per channel. Keeping same excursion.
Or 16 times 12 inch.
Or 32 timws 8 inch 
Of course running so many in parallel causes a massiv drop in resistance and still not the same efficiency, so we need more amps.
But as we grow linear, we keep excursion low. That means short coil. Lighter mass, stronger magnet (as we will use multiple engines).
I think that should work well.
Cheers
Josh
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Posted by twogoodears on
05-24-2017
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Hi Roman and thanks for your interest in my journey and first-hand impressions... I'm back after about a three weeks long Japan (mostly audio related) trip.
I'm still digesting the several systems I listened to, so a bit overdosed and not really willingly going to share on my Blog whatever... the dry, yet enthusiastic post concerning Kato's system was something due...
I mean: when a system and a "room" play so beautifully and harmonically rich in texture and detail, impressive when low end is asked for and so enjoyable, well... that's something to me.
Sure I understand your criticisms, Roman... yet, while listening, everything technical is not considered, at least when pleasure and pros surpass cons - like when you're in the pleasant company of a lady you simply don't think about her kidney or lung functions or when driving a fine motorbike you simply don't think about the metal its clutch is made-of or viscosity of motor-oil...
That was the case... I listened to other expensive systems and I'm NOT impressed by amount of money spent, audio-wise.
Not anymore...
I felt the listening pleasure and involvement, naturality and overall beauty of sound of this system to highly surpass any other system I listened to... not ALE 7 ways in Italy or other Western Electric systems (16A, 15A, 13A) in Europe and Japan, or other Goto-based systems, my own included in Europe and Japan.
Talking about musical enjoyment and pleasure, thanking an audio system... so not considering the possible updates and improvements.
One shot experience and sincere appreciation on my part.
My personal opinion, as Roman correctly pointed out... with no hidden commercial reason but the sharing of my experience.
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Posted by martinshorn on
05-24-2017
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Hi Stephano
Nice to read. Agree. But reg. my concern to new Japanese way of woofing with 5cm compression drivers...
Did you try once a uncompressed drum-play in live level?
I mean judging woofers performance with a violin is somewhat difficult.
cheers
Josh
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Posted by twogoodears on
05-24-2017
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Hi Josh... of course... for evaluation and pleasure-reasons I had my own 24 bit/192 khz live recordings of Lou Harrison's music, performed by a percussion ensemble with harp and assorted cymbals and drums, any size and flute and female, soprano voice...recorded only few weeks ago with Sound Devices 722 and Neumann USM-69 in Blumlein pattern.
... thanking this source, played from a dedicated computer and DAC at several locations and systems, the evaluation was - sort-of - in semi-controlled - i.e. known - conditions...
Whatever, I enjoyed... but NOT all systems reacted the same way, of course... Goto or not;-)
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-24-2017
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 twogoodears wrote: | | That was the case... I
listened to other expensive systems and I'm NOT impressed by amount of money
spent, audio-wise. |
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I did not accuse neither you in this nor your comments in
this bias. However, a large amount of money spent is very frequently serves as obstacle
in a development of audio thinking and in advancement of audio practice by the OWNERS
of the expensive systems. I see it very frequently in brand-inherited groupies generally
and in Goto users in particularly. It is a very frequently that a person buy some
kind of expensive element, let say Kharma speakers for $200K, then the person by
the virtue of investment into the expensive model has a presumption that by the
utilization of his expensive loudspeaker he has some kind of assurance of “better
sound. In realty there is nothing further from truth and I hope you know that “great
sound” did not come from great components but from great efforts.
| twogoodears wrote: | I mean: when a system and a
"room" play so beautifully and harmonically rich in texture and
detail, impressive when low end is asked for and so enjoyable, well... that's
something to me.
Sure I understand your criticisms, Roman... yet, while listening, everything
technical is not considered, at least when pleasure and pros surpass cons -
like when you're in the pleasant company of a lady you simply don't think about
her kidney or lung functions or when driving a fine motorbike you simply don't
think about the metal its clutch is made-of or viscosity of motor-oil... |
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Stefano, it is not a secret that we share different things
with the world, you at your blog and me at mine. Your blog is a dairy about
your exposure to different things and you do not look into the inner working neither
of the things you observed nor into the insights of your own perception. This
is perfectly legitimate area of interest and I have no problems with it, neither
have I criticized you for doing it. However, my own site reflect the interests
that I have and my interest have to do to a great degree with audio specifics, decisions
sensibility, design reasoning, development methodologies, observing and analyzing
playbacks expressive methods, recognizing playback construction patterns, identifying
the correlation between playback expressivism and listening perception. It is not that I am impermeable
for “music and pleasure” but the pleasures is not what I chose to share at my site,
the dedicated to “advanced audio and evolved music reproduction techniques”. I
spent quite a number of years of very hard thinking and hard practicing some
aspect of audio and I very much appreciate to see how my practical accomplishments
and my understanding audio methods stand up against the audio practice by others
audio practitioners. It is not a competition like many morons see it but rather
a correlation and collaboration. Unfortunately many audio people do not know
how to do it… What I think you are
missing in your example with the pleasant company of a lady is that you afraid
that I care about “her kidney or lung functions”. In reality I care to learn
what make me enthusiastic about her and if I enjoy her company so much then it might
be a reason in her, in me or in a world that made her presence so enjoyable. I
do not think that it is in any way or form degrade the quality of my feeling about
the lady. Instead is helps me to avoid a company of the ladies with whom I
would not have that warm and fuzzy feeling…
Rgs, Romy the Cat
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Posted by twogoodears on
05-24-2017
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... yes, Roman: it's not competition... agree on lung, kidney and dedication/effort, as I agree in different approach/behaviour and both are enthusiastic and emphatic... thanks for understanding my POW: my naïveté makes me exclaming "I like" or "I don't like".. I leave to others the task of finding their way or deepening.... that's - humbly said - my way... suggesting, sharing my diary.
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