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Posted by Ronnie on
06-30-2005
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Here's a first post from me, to say hi and let you know why I've joined and perhaps ask a few questions...
I'm building a pair of loudspeakers, with close to zero experience with loudspeaker building, hoping that the Macondos do close to what I'm after, and that therefore you might be the person to ask for some guidance, and perhaps steer me clear of silly ideas.
I don't have any audiophile vocabulary and very little exposure to the "high end", but have a moderately clear picture of where I want the speakers to go, sound-wise, and how they can then be used as tools for transformative audio experience, party and ecstacy. Amen!
HEADPHONES
At this level it is fairly easy. I want my loudspeakers to get close to presenting what I hear with my headphones (using any crappy source).
A while back, I played around with a first speaker project, consisting of Coral Beta 10 fullrange speakers in a few different settings. Front-loaded, back-loaded, with added horn-bass and on their own, and thought it sometimes sounded pretty good compared to the usual rubbish the hifi-shops carry in Sweden (admittedly, I have hardly entered a hifi shop in many many years now. Things could perhaps have shaped up a bit).
Then, when I got a pair of very modestly priced (beyerdynamic) headphones, I realized that it was silly. I mean.. there were lots of instruments that couldn't even be heard from my speakers, and singers emotions and characters could have been completely misunderstood. I'm happy with the headphones, but would now also like to have access to the effect without wearing them, and to be able to share the experience with others simultaneously.
I imagine that my loudspeaker evaluations will be a lot about switching between headphones and speakers to begin with.
To what extent have you used headphones as a yardstick for your loudspeaker projects?
How many of the systems out there are even capable of presenting ALL instruments so that they are easily discernable, and present the basic mood and character of singers, in the way decent headphones cannot fail to do?
I know that many don't like the feeling of having whole orchestras in their heads (something I think is great), but I feel it is silly to talk about tone, PRaT, extension and yada yada before a loudspeaker can clearly present every instrument, like headphones do with ease.
I get the impression that many who play with speakers would rather pretend as if there were no headphones, because it makes it obvious how insignificant their results are. But I won't rule out that I've just been in "bad company", and in a terrible location geographically!
What are your feelings about this? Am I just inexperienced, and would a pair of well setup Avantgarde, Oris, Edgar or some other horns change my prejudice about the results that people are actully achieving around the world today?
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
07-01-2005
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acquistare cialis con paypal cialis generico italia go I like them and use the quite extensively. As the comparing result between the headphones and the loudspeakers…. they are different. The best speakers sound-wide would do a similar result to what the headphones can do but the loudspeakers but will have own advantages. This is quite complicated question….
Rgs,
The caT
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Posted by starboy on
07-02-2005
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I use Jecklin Float Electrostatic headphones (known to some as ear speakers as they sit slighlty away from your ears) and the nearest speaker I have ever heard emulate the feeling of these headphones is the ESL 57's. They are notorious for having just one narrow sweet spot and other limitations but once you are there... Musical heaven in hell and a full portrayal of instruments with a wide cosy wrap around soundstage.
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
07-02-2005
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I can’t say that I like the headphones that people call “good.” I have heard a number of high-class phones, including the one that I was told cost over 5 thousands dollars and I was not impressed what I heard. Some people suggest the while I used those ‘expansive” and presumably high quality headphones I should be unit the high quality headphone amplifiers. With the headphone amplifiers I have even less luck them with headphones. None of the headphone-dedicated amplifiers that I heard performed acceptable.
Ironically the best would that I recognize that I heard form the heard-phone is the one that do not annoys me and this sound comes from a very moderate systems… and without any headphone amplifiers. At the sores I use invariably my favorite Panasonic SL-CT470. It is old cheap Walkman that does not have a lot of so-called resolution but for whatever reasons it is superbly musical. I so love it that I own 5 of those units, pleased everywhere; work, home, cars and so on… A far as headphone concern I trued few of them but I always return to not particularly imprecise Audio-Technica ATH-M40FS. For whatever it worth I have heard a lot of music on this “system” and I do feel very comfortable to continue to use it indefinitely.
Some people believe the headphones in a way conflict with “big speakers” listing habits. I do not think so, or at least I do not feel so. If you listen music then what is the difference how we hear it if you know “how” to hear it? If we listen the dissected sounds coming from our playback then… what the reasons to think what we think in this case….?
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
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Posted by Ronnie on
11-11-2005
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I've found four Scan-Speak 25w/8565-01 and possibly two -00 for sale at a good price.
I'm triamping as of today and hope it's a good idea to start with the four and perhaps add more when I can afford it.
- Do you think the 01 version would work nearly as well as -00 in your kind of LF boxes?
- Perhaps 01 can be changed into 00 by ordering new cones or something miraculous like that?
I'd want to act this weekend and would like your advice on which of the drivers to buy.
(I'm writing here because I see my mail to romy@... bounced last time (wednesday). Move or remove the post if you like.)
Thanks
/ Ronnie
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
11-11-2005
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Hi, Ronnie.
I do not know what happen with emails, you probably should not use the world Viagra in there… :-)
Anyhow, the 25w/8565-01 drivers are optimized for ported enclosures. I porously never had them and never used them, so I could not be helpful. There are some people who looking at the T/S can confidently to say how it will work. Although I know the reasoning and the rules they use I can’t say how a driver will sound, I mean really sound, not juts be misapplied…
General rule: despite what the Scan-Speak said those drivers (I mean 00) do not have a lot of handling power and if you have 50m3 and just 4 driver then you will clip them very easily. Also, if you can then go for the rippled version of those drivers….
Regards and sorry that I was not too useful
Romy
PS: BTW, Ronnie, there is no need to search this drivers “for sale at a good price” and “to act this weekend”. You may get then for near half price using the industry “wolf tickets”. Scan-Speak is very liberal about it.
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Posted by Ronnie on
11-12-2005
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Thanks for the wolves- and power tips!
I don't know any industry wolves unfortunately(?), but more new -01 drivers have appeared at half the price. I think I'll go ahead and make the speakers full range in time for my upcoming 30-years-on-earth-celebration. :-)
The swedish distributor told me that the only -mechanical- difference is the coil: aluminium in the -00 and copper in the -01. WinISD has predicted rather similar (sealed box) response.
- Do I remember correctly that you got 16 ohm versions?
- Could you further explain the difference between "rippled" and not? They all have that irregular, rough surface, right?
/Ronnie
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
11-12-2005
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acquistare cialis online forum cialis generico benadryl pregnancy category benadryl and pregnancy third trimester  Ronnie wrote: | | I don't know any industry wolves unfortunately(?), but more new -01 drivers have appeared at half the price. I think I'll go ahead and make the speakers full range in time for my upcoming 30-years-on-earth-celebration. :-) |
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Ronnie, you do need to know any wolves. All that you need to do is to get the drivers form Scan-Speak as a resaler. This idiotic industry has imbedded huge mark up for the “bogus resalers”. You need to contacts the Scan Speak directly of any of this distributors in your country and tell them that you are some kind of BS “ABSD Sound Reinforcement Company” and you would like to get a hale dozen of their driver for your customer. They will send you a Scan-Speak dealer request form that should fill up and fax in. in a few days you will receive the drivers at 50%off. Those 50% is the normal price that anyone should pay, and the manufactures very happy to sell it for this price, but we have an army of the blood-sucking dealers, who have a strong aplomb and a good appetite to get paid for nothing. They make you believe that the 00 driver coast fortune, although they buy it from Scan-Speak for under $40. I have a quite number of people who got those “wolf tickets”, ironically the US distributors have nothing against it. You can only imagine how much they pay to the manufacturer…
| Ronnie wrote: | | The swedish distributor told me that the only -mechanical- difference is the coil: aluminium in the -00 and copper in the -01. WinISD has predicted rather similar (sealed box) response. |
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Perhaps, though I remember as a few years ago I calculated it and figured out that 01 was more suited for ported box. Also, I remember that they had no only different coils but different Q. It was long time ago… perhaps I am mistaken….
| Ronnie wrote: | | - Do I remember correctly that you got 16 ohm versions? |
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Nope, it was only 8R. I was not able to make them to do 16R.
| Ronnie wrote: | | Could you further explain the difference between "rippled" and not? They all have that irregular, rough surface, right? |
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I feel that the "rippled" are stronger with the same mass and also the random deviation of density is good.... I have seen the flat version of the same driver and I prefer the "rippled" one.
BTW, post a picture when you finish your LF section….
Rgs,
The Cat
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Posted by Ronnie on
12-01-2005
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The 250Hz horns are probably not super optimal since I'm crossing over at, I think, around 1600Hz right now. Yes, the little horns will get their back chambers soon.
I have one Lansing 801 to try out, and the good mr Hasquin has drowned me in compression driver suggestions!
Bass is so far handled by tiny Paradigm fart-machines. *sigh* =)
oops. please move to the loudspeakers and headphones-thread!
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
12-01-2005
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Very nice, though I do not know where you would like me to move the thread. (It looks like it’s OK where it is). There are some comments that I might to pass.
You decided to go for a large MF driver. This is fine if you like it but I found that the entire Fostex idea and a large throat at MF horns do not work. Beside the obvious limitation of Fostex driver the large throat demand a large mouth. As the result the MF become oversized that incentive people go for lower cut of. In reality the Fostex should not be crossed as low and the mouth would allow. So we have a MF horn with “heavy mouth” and the sound kind of funny. In addition Fostex sound strange at thier HF. With a simple pop-jazz music it is not visible but with more serious classic they are losing. Not to mention that with no Fostex you would not need any back chamber at MF horn.
I might only advise you to try any simple and cheap compression drive with 1-2 out. It would make the MF horn way smaller and way simpler. Also it would allow you to locate it closer to your upperbass horn and give some space for a prospective tweeter….
One more thing. I detected that the MF horns are ridiculously sensitive to any objects located nearby with thier mouths, though they surprisingly do not really “see” the upper bass horn. So, after you finish your horn you might come up with some kind of harness the hold the horn in this position but do not act like a baffle.
Feel free to share your contraction techniques and the observations you will be experience while you will be teaching your horn to sound correct
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
PSL I hope you do not drive this with SS gear…..
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Posted by Ronnie on
12-01-2005
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In any case, compression driver MF will make a lot of things simpler. Certainly the stands will be made as small as possible when they don't need to hold for 40kg horns. I'm really looking forward to trying it.
Also, some frequencies are very much pronounced (alien sounds), easiest to hear with opera singers.
At this point I don't know if it's my room or speaker location (very low ceiling and conrete all around), the unfinished upper bass throats, something with the MF horns, the cross-over points or the SS gear.
I'm beginning to long for measurement tools.
The cheap SS amps that I'm playing with will probably be replaced once I know what "size" tube amps I want to build (and perhaps when Buds transformers have reached the market!)
If you'd move all of this to the bottom of http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=1116 then all talk about my loudspeakers development is in one thread and easy to locate.
Well.. I work with programming websites 
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Posted by JLH on
12-02-2005
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Hi Ronnie,
There are a few things that could be causing the alien sounds you site. One, of course, could be certain frequency nodes being excited by room reflections. As long as your room is reasonably dampened, this would not be the case. The second cause and most likely, is the discombobularity formed by mismatching the woofer to the horn throat. What woofer are you trying to use, and what is the throat diameter? These are 115Hz tractrix horns, yes?
As for mid-range horns, you will not need anything larger than a 350Hz tractrix at the most. And more likely you will end up going smaller than 350Hz tractrix. In the mid-range usually you only want to go as large as needed to reach your desired low frequency goal. However, you don't want the size difference between your mid-bass horn and mid-range horn to be too much either. If there is a large difference between sizes, then you start to have directivity matching problems and integration becomes more difficult than it needs to be. Once you finalize your woofer choice and throat, I can better help you on the choice of mid-range horn size and compression driver.
Rgs, JLH
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Posted by Ronnie on
12-02-2005
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Hello John,
The woofer is Fane Studio 8M and throat diameter on the 115Hz horn is 5.56".
The initial 4.5" depth of the throat is made up by 6 MDF pieces with rough edges (awaiting bondo smoothing).
I can easily add 3/4" pieces to the throat section to make it longer and the diameter smaller.
Here's how I calculated the proportions, with help by your formulas:
13592.48 inches per second / (2 X 48.865 inches)) = 139Hz (much lower with room boundaries)
length = 30.125"
eff.length = 18.74 + 30.125 = 48.865"
throat radius = 2.779472"
throat dia = 5.559"
...compared with how I understood that Romys horns are built:
13592.48 inches per second / (2 X 48.865 inches)) = 139Hz
length = 31.7
eff.length = 17.165 + 31.7 = 48.865 inches
throat radius = 2" (1.98")
throat dia = 4" (3.96")
Interesting to hear about horn size matching. A 7-800Hz horn sure would seem tiny on top of the 115Hz.
I have lots to learn about speaker-room interaction and about everything else about the setup.
Have ordered some "Furniture sliders" to place under the horns, which just might make it possible to move them. Compared to my old Paradigm Atom boxes (hehe), I have noticed how little the sound changes sitting up close or far away from the horns. Only with my head right against the back wall is there any very big difference.
/Ronnie
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
12-02-2005
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symbicort inhaler side effects symbicort generic date colincochrane.com symbicort generico | Ronnie wrote: | | Also, some frequencies are very much pronounced (alien sounds), easiest to hear with opera singers. |
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Ronny, could you elaborate more on the “alien sounds”. You see, I disagree with John and do not believe that the “alien sounds” might take place in playback under normal circumstances. The alien sounds “might” pop up at much high frequency or to be due to juts plane-vanilla mechanical defects but if they a have acoustical nature then the problems should not manifest themselves as “alien sounds” but rather as the “wrapping colorations”. Sometime it is quite difficult to distinct the presents of those coloration… So could you describe more what you mean by “alien sounds”? Are they actual the “alien sounds” of just the inaccurate tonal inflections of a specific frequency range?
Rgs,
Romy
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Posted by Ronnie on
12-02-2005
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I wish I could pin-point the frequencies and explain the effect better. I'll do my best.
I want to cover my ears when a Pavarotti sings certain higher notes or some notes when Caballet sings pretty "comfortably".
It's like bad PA horns or horrible acoustic space. I'm thinking of words like "resonances" and "frequency spikes".
My room does not have very bad acoustics. It's comfortable for conversation.
The big horn alone (and unfiltered) sound very well on piano music, but add violins and it feels very sharply cut-off.
Classical organ on the big horn alone is really painful.
Female voices talking is fatiguing, while male voices are better. I don't know if this is normal for the upper bass horn, but adding the MF horn doesn't seem to solve it completely.
Add the MF horn and simple Jazz and rock sounds superb, but classical organ and vocal music clearly shows problems at these frequencies.
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Posted by JLH on
12-02-2005
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After looking at the pictures at http://www.webbtjanst.se/lenco/loudspeakers.asp
I'm feeling like it is both your room and the unfinished horn throat. Maybe more room related.
If there is a rough section of your horn throat with "steps" of 3/4" material, then you will get throat reflections where the distance from the throat imperfection to woofer cone is half a wavelength. (e.g. if you have an imperfection 6" away from the cone, then cancellation would occur at 1132Hz) This can cause narrow bandwidth suck outs that leave the other frequencies over emphasized. Second, I notice that you do not have much sound absorbing material inside your room. In addition, it is a hard wood floor. If you can stand in the room and hear ringing after clapping your hands, then you have a room problem too. Having comfortable conversation is not a good enough test. By now you know how much acoustical power a horn is capable of putting out into a room. At this point I don't think the slightly larger throat diameter is the problem.
Rgs, JLH
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
12-02-2005
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acheter nifedipine 30 acheter nifedipine cialis generic name generic for cialis website | Ronnie wrote: | I wish I could pin-point the frequencies and explain the effect better. I'll do my best.
I want to cover my ears when a Pavarotti sings certain higher notes or some notes when Caballet sings pretty "comfortably".
It's like bad PA horns or horrible acoustic space. I'm thinking of words like "resonances" and "frequency spikes".
My room does not have very bad acoustics. It's comfortable for conversation.
The big horn alone (and unfiltered) sound very well on piano music, but add violins and it feels very sharply cut-off.
Classical organ on the big horn alone is really painful.
Female voices talking is fatiguing, while male voices are better. I don't know if this is normal for the upper bass horn, but adding the MF horn doesn't seem to solve it completely.
Add the MF horn and simple Jazz and rock sounds superb, but classical organ and vocal music clearly shows problems at these frequencies.
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Anyhow, what you are saying looks like more related to MF range. Those “yellow drivers” (Fostex, Louzers and etc) have some very strange and very aggressive 4-6kHz regions. Perhaps it was it. Also, how do you roll off the upper bass horn? The Fane 8M drive is freaky and after the roll off it has quite aggressive pick at 5Khz. This pick might be a friend (helping to integrate the channels) and might be a foe (combined with the upper midrange aggressiveness of the Fostex it might be too rough). A regular RTA should show up what is going on in there. If you keep the Fane’s after-roll-off pick at minus 6-8dB then you should be fine. To tune the channels precisely disregard the “sound” low pass cut off at upper bass. Pay attention ONLY at the Fane’s after roll-off-pick. Wherever you feel the Fane and your MF channel sound OK at 5kHZ then it will be the “lucky found” low pass cut off for your upper bass. I really do not know here my upper bass low passed. I know that at 5kHZ the upperbass’ pick arrive at ~minus 7.5dB that subjectively sound very muck OK to me. Number-wise it is shunted .033uF cap at amp input against 33K, or something like this… I do not remembers already… Still, remember there is not correct setting for integration of your horns. You should recognize and embrace the cons and pros of the very specific derivers and enclosures (horns) and dance form there…. I do not think than in your case the room modes do anything with what you are experiencing….
Rgs, Romy the Cat
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Posted by Antonio J. on
12-02-2005
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I believe that those "allien sounds" are an enhancement of the frequencies comprised in what is called the singer's formant, which is the area of the third formant when opera singers sing vowels. That area is in the range of 3.5 to 5.5 KHz and is a special resonant characteristic that opera singers learn to develope to be able to overcome the orchestra sound. Since you seem to notice those "allien sounds" when they sing high pitch notes, that would place that ringing more in the 4.5 to 5.5 KHz area, which more or less matches the troublesome response zone of the Lowther and Fostex speakers. Were I right, then you'd have to look for other drivers for the midrange horn, or maybe looking for another solution which allowed you to control better those cones response in that area.
Regards,
AJ
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Posted by Ronnie on
12-10-2005
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I have finished both big horns enough to listen in stereo, and the throats are now much smoother.
I'm not using the MF horns, and have been listening all night. It has been a remarkable experience! (well, the inner-me objects and claims there's nothing remarkable about truly hearing, it's quite natural).
The high frequency roll-off meant absolutely nothing. I have been thinking that adding the MF would only be an act of vanity, and not really helpful either for me or visitors!
I have some fear that people may think I'm insane for using 400kg of loudspeakers to produce a good-telephone bandwidth...
(((The Fostex probably reached much too low and gave a midrange response bump. The highest XO point I tried was 2.2KHz, and I now think the big horns without low pass probably go much higher! Anyway, for now the MF is kept out of the picture)))
Anyway, the big "problem" with listening to only the big horns appeared only when Jussi Björling appeared on the radio this morning. There's a distortion like someone is blowing a whistle when he holds high-pitched tones for long. Perhaps it's just the speakers telling me that I don't like to hear people sing very loud when I don't know the lyrics, but I'm not convinced that I shouldn't be able to enjoy opera, so I want to cure the whistling.
I was under the impression that you did not at all electrically roll off the upper bass, and that the small throat would do all the (kinky) low passing.
So I have started out running the big horns without any filter.
Maybe the whistling distortion is in the 4-5-6KHz area and quite natural for the Fane Studio 8M when it tries to sing higher than it can?
Do you think this MF whistling noise is natural for the Fane and must be filtered out with low pass?
/Ronnie
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
12-10-2005
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| Ronnie wrote: | | I was under the impression that you did not at all electrically roll off the upper bass, and that the small throat would do all the (kinky) low passing. |
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Nope I did roll of the upper bass channel as my driver goes all the way up. The problem is that when it high relatively high regency then it’s cone because to heavy to handle then with a sufficient quality. I would wish that the sampler throat do all necessary low passing but I need to dive 3 octave in the operation region of the driver and certainly no one throat would be able to do it. It might be possible to fish something by tuning the front chamber but I personally do not believe in the front chambers, as with cutting frequencies I would loose sound as well.
| Ronnie wrote: | | So I have started out running the big horns without any filter. Maybe the whistling distortion is in the 4-5-6KHz area and quite natural for the Fane Studio 8M when it tries to sing higher than it can? |
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Hm, even without any lowpass filter the Fane Studio 8M should be quite clean atop and defiantly it should not any “whistling distortion”. Did you try to listen juts the upper bass channel without any MF and HF connected? Did the “whistling distortion” persist? Also, the Fane’s cone is very inactive and it talks with you MF channel coil when they are connected…. Still, what amplitude you have at 4-5-6KHz from Fane? How close (in DBs) your MF and Fane channel running after the MF kicks in?
| Ronnie wrote: | | Do you think this MF whistling noise is natural for the Fane and must be filtered out with low pass? |
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Hmmm. It defiantly sound be minimized at a few DB lower then you have now by low passing the channel but I would not cure the symptom and would search go for the souse of the problem. The problem you described should not be in this driver; at least the 5-6 pairs that went over my own hands did not have it. Ronnie, could you elaborate what the “whistling distortion” might sound like?
The caT
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