GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - I am gaining somewhere .5dB and I do not know where.

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Topic: I am gaining somewhere .5dB and I do not know where.

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Posted by Romy the Cat on 04-11-2006

People asked me: Romy why don’t you try to transfer some analog to digital and see what happen. I was queries myself and I decided to try tonight.

Whatever I did was in a way half-ass but I was interested in “as is” result. Although the attempt of transfer is compromised (the details below) but I was specifically interested in some aspect of the Larry’s AD performances and I got my answers. Generally I am semi-pleased (not with the transfers itself but what the lavry's AD did in this case) but, still, there were some not good "issues" that I did notice also. I will not comment on the results further but I provide below a sub 200mB file with raw transfer. It is 24/88 and if you have no means to play it then do not waste my server and do not download the file. If you do download and listen it then I would like to hear your thoughts and comments.

(attention: a large 170meg file, 24/88, i will not be playable on regular windows players.)
(file is gone)

Some technical comments. The recording was spontaneous: all preparation took 10 minutes. It is Micro 8000 with SME2016+26g with Shelter 901. Then Expressive SU-2 coupled with 2xEAR-834PT, then everything went into my preamp, then into Lavry Gold AD-122 processor, then to Linx16 and to the HD of my DAW.

Some problems: have no connectors to Lavry AD from my cables and therefore I used the cheap Rat--Shake XLR adapters (they are horrible!!!) Also, the Dominos cable were moved from across the room, disconnected from the Super Melquiades and to connect to the Lavry – so the cables would need 2-3 days to get bass back. (Now it has no real bass).

Feel free to comment,
Romy the Cat

PS: Do not downsample the file into 16/44 ... it will be garbidge!

Posted by *DOTSYSTEM on 04-17-2006**
Romy I created a DVD-A using your track and also some upsampled CD tracks. Is easy to hear the superior sound of your track versus the upsampled redbook tracks. I hear a bit more noise in the right channel of your track and the overall balance favors the right channel. Bob

Posted by Romy the Cat on 04-17-2006

DOT*SYSTEM wrote:
I created a DVD-A using your track and also some upsampled CD tracks. Is easy to hear the superior sound of your track versus the upsampled redbook tracks.

I hear a bit more noise in the right channel of your track and the overall balance favors the right channel.

Bob, There is a LOT of problems with this transfer: noise, balance, insufficient total level, absent of bass, problems with harmonics and many other things. When I did it I did nor spend a lot of affords and I was only concerned how Larvy will be handling HF. I think it did OK, although I do see some problems with HF imaging. To say more how it “images” it would be necessary to fix all the rest things in my conversion ceremony (harmonics accuracy would be first) and then see what Larvy could do. In context of FM recording it does phenomenal job. I hope that it will do fine with LPs, this little ad-hog experiment indicated the it should….

Rgs,
Romy

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-21-2010

Here is my second attempt to make ad-hog analog transfers. The file is 280 Meg in 167kH and 24 bit. Do not download it if you can’t not play 167kH. The file is 0.5dB hotter then it shall be and has some clipping. I wonder if somebody would be able to hear the clipping. Anyhow, you feedback about the general quality is welcoming. The file will be removed in 3 days from the server.

(the file is gone)

Romy the Cat

Posted by tuga on 02-21-2010

Romy the Cat wrote:
Here is my second attempt to make ad-hog analog transfers. The file is 280 Meg in 167kH and 24 bit. Do not download it if you can’t not play 167kH. The file is 0.5dB hotter then it shall be and has some clipping. I wonder if somebody would be able to hear the clipping. Anyhow, you feedback about the general quality is welcoming. The file will be removed in 3 days from the server.

Romy the Cat

I am very impressed with the spaciousness and colours, and transient response is also very good, but I feel a slight hardness in the sound that doesn't allow complete relaxation when listening (with headphones; I'll try the speakers latter in the day).
I wonder if this could be due to the highish recording volume.

Since digital reproduction doesn't have tape hiss I wonder if it's necessary to record the highest sounds so close to the clipping point.
This attests for the excellent dynamic range of your vinyl playback, though, and it would be funny if you had to compress some of your LPs upon transfer to digital...

Cheers,
Ric

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-21-2010

I am trying to find out where I picking up .5dB, I have no idea at this point where. The recording is made from tape loop of my preams into Pacific Microsonics. The meter of Pacific show that at the very loudest peaks the signal stay at minus .15db digital and the clipping indictor never does off. Pacific meter has option to monitor the last dB with insane possession. So, I know that on A/D level I did not hit 0dB.

The Lynx card and WaveLab 6.0 shall be in unity gain but the they are apparently not as the graph of the recording is clearly indicate in a few place hitting 0dB and clipping of the transient. So, I wonder where that gain, I would estimate .5dB, is coming from? I certainly do not what to digitally attenuate any WaveLab of Lynx setting but I would like WaveLab and Lynx to abbey the Pacific’s recording level. I need to find out what is going on.

The LP itself a bit hard – that is true but clipping itself shall create a very strong HF pressure, if it is a true clipping but not just the errors of WaveLab graph.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

Posted by manisandher on 02-21-2010

Hi Romy,

You beat me to it. I was going to post that I've never seen so many red LEDS light up on the Model Two!

Have you tried adjusting the sensitivity of the peak level meters on the Model Two before you record? Could it be that you have the sensitivity set too low, at say 7 samples, i.e. allowing too many samples through before registering a peak? Just a thought...

You may recall my stating a while ago that according to Ritter, the Model Two works internally at a rate of 176.4KHz (or 192KHz). It's always seemed 'obvious' to me that this should then be the ideal rate at which to record.

Otherwise, I love the music. Forgive me for my ignorance, but what is it?

Mani.

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-21-2010

manisandher wrote:
You beat me to it. I was going to post that I've never seen so many red LEDS light up on the Model Two!

This is the whole point of the experiment. I have absolutely no LEDS light during recording on Pacific and I had absolutely no LEDS light on VaweLab during recording. I was running the max analyses on VaweLab during recording and it never hit 0dB. If so, then why the RECORDED FILE went over 0dB?

manisandher wrote:
Have you tried adjusting the sensitivity of the peak level meters on the Model Two before you record? Could it be that you have the sensitivity set too low, at say 7 samples, i.e. allowing too many samples through before registering a peak? Just a thought...

I guess the adjusting of the sensitivity sets the left boundary of the miter, not the right one. I think 0dB is 0dB at 1dB over a full scale or at 40dB of full scale.

The Cat

Posted by DOT*SYSTEM on 02-21-2010

Romy

I downloaded your file and burned a DVD-A which includes 176/24 Reference Recordings HrX demo files they once made available.

I listened to these on my OPPO SE which has an info display that verifies the recording sample rate, and also on my expensive modified AKM 32 bit Esoteric universal player.

Your track comes across with a distinct analog feel in the mids. I have no idea how faithful it is tonally to the original recording. Nice crispy sweet articulation of midrange detail. Hard to assess below the midrange because there is little low frequency timbre for the track you posted. I can hear the groove noise and at times what appears to be venue noise.

Turning to the HRS demos, their sound is a bit liquid and has a slightly distant perspective. The sound is very nice but I cannot confuse it for vinyl.

I also burned some of my own needle drops at 176/24 using a Korg MR-2000s recorder. This unit will record to DSD and you can export with various dither options to PCM via software but I opted to set the Korg to rip directly to 176/24 wave format. I then copied the files off of the Korg box without further processing. I use DVD-A Solo software. I set that not to dither. I created an image on the hard drive and then burned a DVD-A from that image. The packaging for DVD-R blanks I use say they are FUJIFILM but a utility PlexTools indicates they may be rebranded.

The Korg recorded tracks reveal the gestalt of my phono vinyl set-up upon play back. I can’t say they sound identical but any change imparted to tracks is benign and less than I get when I record at 96/24 or SRC DSD to 96/24.

There is software for postprocessing vinyl rips but little available that processes files above 96/24. To rip vinyl and remove clicks, pops, rumble, etc. is very labor-intensive.

My recording chain is:

Desprung modified GyroDec
SME 309/Silver Breeze
Shelter 501
Walker Signature Phono
Connected by Magnan Signature single ended to
Aesthetix Calypso with tape out to Korg

Bob

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-21-2010

DOT*SYSTEM,

Why you burned raw files to DVD-A? By doing this you have killed over 50% of sound. Who need any post-processing software? Come on, I am taking about only row files that come right after an A/D processor. If a file was once re-saved then all bids are off and I do not care what other people say. Can you play a raw 176/24 waves with your Korg box? If not then any farther conversation after you put it to DVD-A are irrelevant.

The Cat

Posted by DOT*SYSTEM on 02-21-2010

Romy

Your file was burned in wave format you provided as-is. It was never processed by the Korg. I conducted my test to evaluate the sound of 176/24 files on my system. These files came from you, Reference Recording and my Korg and all can coexist unaltered on a DVD-A. I burned your wave file to DVD-A without allowing the DVD-A creation program to alter its audio contents. The program accepts wave files but could try to upsample it to 196/24 if I asked it to. I did not ask it to upsample. If it did upsample, it would have created a new (easy to locate) wave file and it did not.

Your file as heard from my DVD-A sounded better than my 96/24 files do. Nothing was lost in the way I created the DVD-A. I can play the files that Korg records directly into my system. I can copy a recording it creates out of it using USB which I did before I burned them to DVD-A. I have not tried to copy one in. Korg has its own library interface that appear to be a subset of a proper file system interface. It's small hard drive is intended as a temporary location for the recordings it makes. If I copied a file into the Korg to play, I would probably have to create a supplemental file to fool it into thinking that it (the Korg) created the file.

I handled the HrX files the same way. For my needle drops, I set the Korg to record 176/24 wave and copy thefile it produces onto my music drive . I tell the DVD-A software where these files live on my hard drive and the software sees all of these as 176/24 files.

I have no idea if the Korg is internally creating DSD and then converting it to PCM on the fly when I tell it to record in PCM or whether it is recording directly to PCM. I do know that my vinyl needle drop recordings at 176/24 and 192/24 sound very much like the vinyl does on my system when played back either directly from the Korg or a DVD-A derived from the recordings it produces. For this characteristic, I believe it is suitable for my purposes - archiving my vinyl. So beyond, whether a recorded file sounds good on someone else's system, I think it is important to know how faithful the sound is to the system that created it. I have not yet tested how effective the Korg is when asked to record SACD analog output.

Unlike the cheaper Korg models the MR-2000s has both single ended and balanced connections for recording and playback and can be easily integrated into an audio system without worrying about mike preamps or connection adaptors required.

Hope this clarifies.

Bob

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-21-2010

I am sorry Bob, I do not understand it. What DVD-A has to with anything. You can’t burn “DVD-A without allowing the DVD-A creation programs to alter its audio contents”. You can copy the WAW file to DVD but as soon you use DVD-A format then the file re-render from WAW to DVD-A format. Open DVD-A disk and see the structure of the files – you won’t see WAWs in there but you see their own files. I am not too proficient with DVD-A forma and with software that plays it but I have very high downs that it is remotely compatible to row WAW files. I do not know what conversion your Korg does internally, over SACD or over DVD-A, I true do not see any needs in it as the file is WAW file and it need to be played by raw WAW played with no conversion of any kind. If you want then send me back a very short fragment after Kong processing and I will tell you if the file was screwed. My file has the HDCD code injected into the last 24-bit. If after Kong processing and resaving the file the last know bit will have HDCD code then it is transparent and does not do conversion. I very much doubt however.

Posted by DOT*SYSTEM on 02-22-2010

OK Romy, I get it. You may believe that the act of the DVD-A creation software will alter the music bits as seen by the transport/DAC. I believe the software is only encapsulating the data into the DVD-A binary image. My current PC music streamer, a Logictech Transporter/software package will dumb down your wave file to 96/24 on on the fly during playback so I ripped a DVD-A allowing my DAC to receive and process at the 176/24 data resolution. My OPPO SE indicates it is processing 176/24 on playback. To hear tracks with higher than 96/24 resolution, disc playback this is how I must listen to them. I like having the computer in a different room from the system.

As I said, the playback of my Korg recorded vinyl tracks at 176/24 captures the personality of my system. If you can play back a DVD-A in your system, I could send you a DVD-A of your track and you can judge how it captures or not the sound of your vinyl played through your system.

Some day I will own a better streamer - one like the Transporter that will allow me to connect a different DAC if I desire. But I can archive now at higher resolution knowing that the Transporter will play files as 96/24 and the future device at the archived resolution.

176/24 may be the recording format I use when I finalize a workflow for archiving my vinyl and I appreciate access to high resolution samples. Post processing issues include do I provide playback access to individual tracks, remove ticks, pops, groove noise, convert to flac, tagging, etc.

Bob

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-22-2010

DOT*SYSTEM wrote:
OK Romy, I get it. You may believe that the act of the DVD-A creation software will alter the music bits as seen by the transport/DAC. I believe the software is only encapsulating the data into the DVD-A binary image.

Bob, DVD-A to 176/24 file is the same as CD format to 16/44 files. You might run the raw 16/44 files and get good sound but as son you render those files into CD format then you lost a LOT of quality. Again, I am dealing with raw file and I am not willing to accept ANY post recording file pressing. You might believe in whatever you wish to believe but if the DSP activated by players then the player need to be trashed in my view. I do not know what the “DVD-A binary image” is and frankly I do not think I need to know it. If you have 176/24 file and you have a player that can read it then why the DVD-A phrase ever come to the picture?

DOT*SYSTEM wrote:
My current PC music streamer, a Logictech Transporter/software package will dumb down your wave file to 96/24 on on the fly during playback so I ripped a DVD-A allowing my DAC to receive and process at the 176/24 data resolution. My OPPO SE indicates it is processing 176/24 on playback. To hear tracks with higher than 96/24 resolution, disc playback this is how I must listen to them. I like having the computer in a different room from the system.

Again, as soon you ripped my file as DVD-A it stopped to be my file and it become whatever your DVD-A software wiling it to be. I do not see need to talk about it anymore.

DOT*SYSTEM wrote:
As I said, the playback of my Korg recorded vinyl tracks at 176/24 captures the personality of my system. If you can play back a DVD-A in your system, I could send you a DVD-A of your track and you can judge how it captures or not the sound of your vinyl played through your system.

Nope, thanks. I do not need any DVD-A disks/files. I deal ONLY with raw files. I do not need to judge it sound I want to see the last 24th bit not modified by DSP. I am sure it is not the case with your DVD-A tools.

The Cat

Posted by manisandher on 02-22-2010

manisandher wrote:
Forgive me for my ignorance, but what is it?

I know it's JSB, but just wanted to know which version and/or who's playing.

Mani.

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-22-2010

manisandher wrote:
I know it's JSB, but just wanted to know which version and/or who's playing.

Nope, it is not Bach. This is Spanish Baroque composer Antonio Soler who died in the end of 17^th century. I like him as his music is very “contemporary”, sort of speaking. The sonata is played by Rafael Puyana – a very gifted Colombian harpsichordist.

Rgs, Romy

Posted by manisandher on 02-22-2010
fiogf49gjkf0d Thanks Romy. I've just ordered Philips 5838 433, 838 433 - hopefully it'll have this track on it! But I could have sworn it was JSB's Toccata & Fugue in D minor... Mani.

Posted by guy sergeant on 02-24-2010

It would be interesting to hear this recorded at a more sensible level. Enjoyable music & playing (I think)

It has the quality of a ballet dancer wearing hobnail boots at the moment.

I'd like to hear your version of this short piece.
http://www.mediafire.com/?jddzy3xmdu4

Enigma Variation 'Troyte' from Barbirolli with the Philharmonia on EMI
(this recorded at 16/44 with a fairly basic Tascam CD recorder)

I imagine your higher res version could be alot more immediate.

Posted by DOT*SYSTEM on 02-24-2010

Romy

I was able to copy your file into the Korg. I also copied in the Reference Recording HrX demo files. Using the Korg AudioGate PC interface, I played the tracks back through my PC sound card. With the Korg software, the recorded levels of the tracks could be seen via an LED simulation. The average displayed levels for the Reference Recording tracks were typically between -12 to -24 db and never exceeded 0db. Your average recorded level is a bit higher.

I wonder if an optimal gain setting can be found or if each recording will require tweaking of recording gain levels to obtain the best result

The RR HrX tracks used were:

Joel Fan - Gottschalk Suis Moi! Caprice.wav
The Minnesota Orchestra - Tchaikovsky Hopak from Mazeppa.wav

These tracks were once available for download at their web site.

Hope this is helpful.

Bob

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-24-2010

I am not sure what all those conversations are all about. No one argue that a recording shell not hit 0dB and it was no my objective to prove it. The point that I was trying to make is that Wavelab meter did measure the right amplitude and the file is clearly indicate some clipping. However, during recording the Pacific “Digital IN” meter did not indicated that I hit 0dB. The Pacific’s meter is corky. At high resolution mode, when Pacific does 0.1dB, it works from -6dB to -21dB but for whatever reasons I can’t not see in high resolution mode the last 6dB. I use Lavry AD122’s high precision generator and swiped the Pacific-Lynx tandem. The Lynx measure looks like with absolute the same accuracy as Lavry outputs. I was trying to recalibrate the Pacific meters. Pacific shows 0dB at 0dB but I was not able to recalibrate it’s overload setting as Lavry doesn’t not outputs more than 0dB digital.

The whole story is that I would like do not record at -12 to -24 db but to have the max peak at minus 1dB -2dB. This is how I record my FM but in there it is easy as the signal is already pre-limited in the station. The LP transfers are way less limited so I need much more manageable control over the last 1-2dB. I would like to have a full Pacific 64-led meter with 0.1dB resolution and covering the last few decibels. That control is something what I am after.

The Cat

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