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Posted by Bud on
07-08-2005
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I noticed you have direct drive towers for bass fundiment support. Would you want to clarify their activity and bring it to the level of the horns?
I have a process for almost massless transverse wave standing wave elimination, on all surfaces, that would allow those drivers to charge your room with that just before a storm feeling of pressure, without any alien artifacts laying about to obscure your attention.
If this thought interests you I can send you a white paper that has been completely ignored by the AUDIO PROFFEESIONAL society. I would of course rather just arrogantly attach my impotant document to this note but you have carefully eliminated thatpossibility!
If your interest remains, a proof of principle would be in order, since you would have to supply the drivers, free of enclosures, all the way out here to the upper left crust for treatment. I can recommend that you send a copy of your favorite $50 table radio for treatment and retun. That way, if you feel my claims are not supported by reality I can afford to buy the offending item from you.
Please feel free to eliminate this post, won't incur my wrath or interrupt the delighted spontaneous erruptions of laughter.
Bud
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
07-10-2005
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Bud,
Thanks for the offer but I do not know if you knock into the correct door. You see, I do not build theories or conceptualize audio generically. I am a very sensible person who practices applied audio. All those conversations about audio and thinking about audio are centered around very tangible results that I getting out of my playback ands consequentially around the perceptible benefits of music reproduction. Unfortunately from you post I do not clearly understood what kind listening benefits me, or anyone else for this mater, might get.
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
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Posted by Bud on
07-10-2005
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Romy
I too am uninterested in Audio theories. I do not want to hear audio either. I design and build transformers, interconnect cables, speaker cables, treat speaker emitters, mounting face plates, boxes, etc., so I do not have to hear audio. Listening to speakers does not interest me, I don't want to know they are in the room. If I am looking at them, when I must, I do not want to be able to tell that they are participating in what I am listening to.
This process that I am going on about makes speakers inaudible. Only music and the art forms within, waiting to be released, are allowed. I mentioned it to you only because I noticed in one of your posts that you do not use your bass fundament towers for all music. That should not be. You should not even know you have bass fundament support, they should be invisible to your ears and to your automatic correlator.
The correlator being the sentient and aware process that draws your attention to sounds. Hearing is not a positive sense. It is in fact extremely prejudicial threat assessment system. As an example, if you are walking on the sidewalk in town, feeling safe and secure, obeying the rules, and you hear an unknown or surprising sound behind you, what do you do? You cannot avoid having your attention brought to this unknown, as you say, "Alien" sound. Your correlator and automatic threat assessment systems want this sound catalogued and it's source defined, NOW. Same is true when listening to art being redisplayed in your room as "music" I do not like having this threat sensor going off while I am listening to Horenstein conduct the L. S. O. through Mahler's third symphony in my living room. I am mindful of and very happy that the engineers at Unicorn were able to capture this great art and am pleased to have an excellent pressing being played on my tuntable, through my pre amp, amps and speakers. I am always willing to discuss what I know, from practical experience, is working as I want it to. But I don't want to hear it happening
The offer to treat the bass tower speakers for you is just an offer to remove them from your attention, so you forget they are on, so you have to approach them closely and perhaps even touch one to be certain they are on. The only thing they should be guilty of is providing that footprint for all of the other musical art to sprout from.
This is, to me and some happy others, a very well defined process for reintegration of information, that would otherwise have been left to be expressed as uncorrelatable noise. I am not making things better than they can be. I wont be changing the expressions of tone, etc., produced. I will just be eliminating the possibility of one of the worst forms of mis-expression found in all emitters, regardless of type, cost, materials or marketing. These false emissions are known as standing waves and I know how to keep an emitter surface from expressing energy in the transient form of this menace by controlling the boundary layer, at the surface of the emitter, with a a pattern whose additional mass is equivalent to writing your name in ink on a piece of notebook paper.
I am going to attempt to send the white paper to you, via the email address given, in the notification that you had answered my posting. It is a harmless PDF file of 470k or so. Please excuse my starting from ground zero in the paper, it is written for a very general audience. Some of whom are very deliberately dim when it comes to their "profession." I hope you enjoy reading it.
Bud
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
07-11-2005
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I read the White Papers, thanks you for sending them over. What you are saying is very much correct, very much influential and very much disregarded by audio industry. Although I do not know if the proposed by you remedy might resolve/minimized the problem but I still would like to ask if this all would be applicable to horn loaded installations. In the example that you provided in the Papers it would be unquestionable the case but a radial gradually-exponential horn without a front chamber should be free from thoses problems by default, would it be? Also, it would be nice if you find a way to deal with the Stand Waves in our rooms… :-)
Anyhow, if I would like to try what you proposed, perhaps partially, on my woofer towers then what would be my forst step?
Rgs,
Romy the caT
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Posted by Antonio J. on
07-11-2005
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acheter nifedipine 20 acheter nifedipine melatonin and weed melatonin weed link If Bud agreed maybe they could be posted or placed for downloading somewhere in this site or elsewhere. I am very interested in knowing more about it.
Regards,
aj
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Posted by Bud on
07-11-2005
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It is interesting that you say that the problem is well known. I discovered this application in 1972, while trying to come to a solution for the sonic insults being supplied by a pair of Ohm F speakers. I eventually got them to act somewhat as Walsh envisioned, but they became point source radiators rather than cylindrical. The patent was granted in 1994 and has had 204 official requests for transfer of the document. No one has ever contacted me due to those document releases.
I have no problem with the white paper being posted for others to read and comment on. I would advise caution in experimenting, only because the white paper does not address many practical issues that would have to be divulged in some sort of teaching process. This is not a difficult thing to do but will be tedious. Just as tedious as actually performing the activities required to apply the pattern you are now aware of is.
I would not reccomend applying the full pattern to a Tractix style horn. A benefit would be found in applying a ring of pattern at the middle of the final flare, the portion of the outer bell closest to you when you are in front of the horn, just to quench the Raleigh waves that circulate there. Applying the pattern to both the compression driver surface and phase plate would be beneficial. The caveat here is the level of dynamic intensity that becomes available from treated horns. Most music will end up playing somewhere in your body, in addition to assaulting your ears with pretty unbelievable transient attack and decay. Much as it happens in rows one and two in the symphony hall.
For the EV tweeters a line of pattern across the short dimension at the ends of the long horn flare would be all I would reccomend. I might experiment with the dome compression driver if I had spares.The drawback here is that, just as with the cheap paper cone tweeter in the white paper, the efficiency jumps rather alarmingly when you treat dome tweeters. I assume the EV compression dome is metal so the effect would be moderated. That increase in efficiency does translate directly into dynamic headroom, without noticable distortion, so it is easy to damage your drivers and ears because it sounds so good when you turn the volume up that you do it again and again.
The real result of treating drivers in this fashion is how "polite" they become. Heavy traffic never seems to cause road rage here. Another interesting side effect is that because the drivers do not emit transient standing waves many of the standing wave nodes in your room will not be activated. You will actually have deep bass in the middle of the room, instead of just along the walls. Another thing to consider is the location the speakers are in. No longer will you have muffled bass in an adjacent room. The entire house will become the front chamber of the speakers. The energy is now being emitted in a phase and time coherent manner and so will penetrate most walls, other than cinderblock or concrete, very effectivly. Also upper range frequencies will now travel down hallways and into other rooms intact and intelligable. These characteristics have plagued my wife for the last 30 years.... generaly to my detriment.
I really would reccomend that I treat a less expensive and easier to replace driver set first, just so you have some time to reflect on the results. Hence my suggestion about the table radio. I just need to be able to access the front of the drivers in what I assume to be a boom box style package. Treating both faces, front and back, is not worth the effort when you cannot control what is in the area behind the driver.
Bud
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Posted by Antonio J. on
07-11-2005
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I will be very thankful if you or Romy could post the white paper here. If that's not possible, please send it to me to my e-mail, I think it's on my profile.
Regards,
aj
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Posted by Bud on
07-11-2005
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Works just fine with ported, unported or open baffle. The process works on the boundary layer of the cone. This is the very thin area between cone material and air. The actual mechanism just disallows energy trapped in this zone from reflecting from the outer edge of the cone back across the surface, thereby creating odd order impedences, via summing nodes, in the cone boundary layer. When a driver is treated it becomes a single pass transmission line with all energy being emmited in phase across the whole cone and thereby producing only phase coherent and time aligned energy density in the air. This phase coherent energy density compresses the air inside of the box very uniformly and produces an inverted signal at the port that is also phase and time coherent. Also your cone will move a lot less for a given output.
Romy.
To answer the rest of your question I am staked down near Seattle. Just East in fact, on top of a hill, above a lake I cannot see. If you do not want to wait on a pre test unit then start looking for the boxes the drivers came in, or preparing to create their equivalent. Might be able to get the folks at Madisound to send you some. They are usually pretty kind that way.
Bud
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
07-11-2005
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 Bud wrote: | | To answer the rest of your question I am staked down near Seattle. Just East in fact, on top of a hill, |
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Bud,
I am not in position “do not want to wait on a pre test unit”. I kind of spiritually support the direction where you were looking and I find that I might be effective. Well, you did identity the problem correctly and therefore nothing suggests that your ability to offer the pepper solution might be compromised. I kind of would like to keep my option in your direction opened but…. there is a LOT of things to try out there and there are many things that could be done (including many different kinky soaking of the cones). I usably try it if an occasion comes…
Anthony, this is Bud’s Paper and if he wishes to make it public then I might locate it on my server. I am really not in position to forward the Paper. Contact the author…
Rgs, Romy
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Posted by Bud on
07-11-2005
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You may post the paper if you like. It is public domain material. I did send a copy to Antonio so any immeadiate need has been met.
If you meant that you want to explore this process on your own, then you need some basic supplies.
1. Speedball pen lettering set with blunt cut tips from A0 to A5. These are the bent end blunt tips.
2. Microscale clear gloss coat paint. It is some kind of industrial floorwax of an Acrylic bent, but I don't know which one. One bottle will fully coat many speakers and your's will not need to be fully coated. This is the conformal coating described in the paper.
3. Flat, clear liquid acrylic paint. I use the Poly S product, from the same model shop that sold you the Microscale clear gloss coat. Shops that sell scale trains are most likely to have both products. This material, cut 33% with water, is the "ink" used in the pens to create the individual blocks of the pattern. Except with unfilled paper cones, there an uncut paint is best.
4. Polar coordinate graph paper. The polar coordinate paper allows you to pre make an inking template to sit just below the rows of blocks and guide your application of the Poly S material. An exactly correct application is NOT needed, you just want to avoid overlap between blocks on the two different rows. I do have a lisp program, that runs in Autocad, that will generate the pattern, given inner dia (joint between cone and center dome), outer dia. and length from dome edge to outer edge of cone at the surround but you do need Autocad and it is not cheap and the learning curve is very steep.
Then, when you have all of these items, we can dicuss what to do with them, to insult your various flat and curved surfaces. And you can treat your room too........
Bud
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
07-11-2005
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OK,
I split the thread to let the Bud’s subject to run the show. Here is the Bud’s Papers.
Rgs, Romy
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Posted by Bud on
07-12-2005
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Just one last note here, since many folks will start here.
Having finally finished reading your enourmous work on the Vitavox drivers I would NOT reccomend using this process on them. It would be so very difficult to arrive at the correct amount of material/vs control in anything aproaching a lifetime that the time should be spent out of doors in the sunlight instead.
I do suspect that treating the EV horn flare, on the short sides, might bring it back to your system in a support role.
Bud
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Posted by Antonio J. on
07-12-2005
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I wonder why no commercial manufacturer showed interest on it.
What should I expect to hear in the music played with treated drivers?
brgs
aj
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Posted by Bud on
07-12-2005
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Antonio,
You should expect to hear just the music. In explaining the effect of this process in words, I am in a simmilar position to Romy with his Melquiades amplifiers.
Most speakers sound just fine, to those who are used to them. We have, in our sensorium correlator, the ability to assign prejudgements to all input from eyes, ears tongue etc. We can block out repetative, iritating sensations and might not ever be able to "find" them again. When you first hear a set of treated speakers they are going to reset all of your prejudgements, but not immeaditely.
The first few minutes will be a time of breaking down expectations and then you will begin to notice extra sounds, ones that make sense, but you don't remember hearing before.
Soon thereafter you will notice how crisply defined, without any irritating leading edge scritch, all sounds are. Then comes the depth of the sound field. Then the incredibly fast and intense transients, rim shots on drums will cause you to fear that your drivers are going to split, horns will no longer sound like paper over comb kazoos, bass violas will thrum and violins will create the most exquisitly delicate fog.
Then you will start to hear things that are "Alien sounds" and begin to worry that the process has caused these to arise, then the correlator wil take over and the speakers will once again sound just fine. Except for the alien sounds.
Then will begin the process of rooting out all of the creators of these alien sounds. A less than perfect VTA on the tone arm. A preamp whose voltage drive does not match your amplifiers sensitivity, so you are always stuck in the first quarter of rotation of the volume control pot. An insufficient supply of instantaneously available electron clouds, on the minus side of the preamp and power amp. Something other than Litz wire interconnect and speaker cables, with the correct amount of dialectric material for utterly neutral response. etc. etc. etc.
The speakers will exactly reflect the improvements made with the death of each of these aliens. Eventually you will make a breathrough, enough aliens are dead that the sound ceases to be AUDIO and somehow creates this bubble of pressurefull impact, even without a sound, and only music will arise from this nest.
Soon enough this will also become the ordinary. This is where you can really begin to spend money, only to find that mostly, a new product just introduces a new group of aliens to kill off. Meanwhile, you wont have touched your speakers for what quickly becomes years.
I hope Romy forgives me for these poetic sorts of words, but I am sure he knows the sense behind them.
Bud
Bud
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Posted by Bud on
07-13-2005
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This process has little if any effect upon harmonic distortion. Using a Liberty Audio test suite, it is possible to find some very minor trade off from odd order to even order distortion. But, if it is indeed occurring, it is so small as to be useless as a descriptor for the audible changes. The typical test for Intermodulation Distortion does not cast any useful light on the event either. I do not have access to a spectrum analyzer and laser inferometer, with cross correlation software, to test with, so I must use analogy and reason. I am not an audio engineer, I am a magnetician, an applied magnetics designer, so I am sure I am going to step all over everyone's carefully defined models here. I do it regularly when designing audio transformers, to very good effect, so I am not going to apologize.
IM distortion is usually very narrowly defined as a test of the artifacts resulting from two discrete and carefully filtered sine wave tones. This is a useful test and reveals many gross problems and is a way to discover their variability when changing gross physical characteristics of drivers. Certainly one of the major reasons that drivers have made so much "progress" in the last 30 years.
Intermodulation is not confined to two sine wave tones in the real world. In fact the bulk of disruptive IM signals are created by non sine wave signals, acting upon other non sine wave signals, acting upon and at a level relatively close in amplitude to signals that have sine wave content. This activity grossly reduces intelligibility from the standpoint of an intelligent correlator. One assembling sound into a format, useful for a coherent understanding of that signal, to arise in our wet ware processor so we can "hear" the information rather than discard it as random noise. I know of no other terminology but IM distortion reduction that even begins to convey a classification that this unusual process might fall within. If we should call this something other than IM distortion reduction that is fine, but, we will have to come up with a classification name for it. Other than "Pure BS" please.
As an example of the phenomenon. Take any moderately priced CB radio, with its bandwidth limited and un-self-damped paper cone driver. To attempt to "hear" and follow a conversation with one other person, amidst the amazing amount of non sinusoidal noise and other overlapping conversations available is so difficult that a potentially useful, public radio communication, format failed because of it. If you treat one of those speakers with my process, all of the noise remains, all of the other conversations remain, but they no longer interact in a way that interrupts a coherent understanding of one or more conversations. The random noise no longer corrupts a signal that an intelligent correlator can present as a coherent and intelligible signal to our awarness. It does this by eliminating the transient reflections from all of the terminus edges of the area in question. If you treat two of the sort of units that use the speaker as a microphone, intelligibility between them jumps, alarmingly.
THIS IS NOT A FORM OF GROSS MASS DAMPING. THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO A NARROW BAND OF FREQUENCIES. THIS WORKS ON ALL SURFACES AT ALL FREQUENCIES AND ALL AMPLITUDES TO THE SAME DEGREE. PERIOD. I really do understand that this makes no sense in the conventional model based comprehension of speaker related phenomena. Doesn't seem to matter, this does work and in a very pervasive fashion at that. The models will have to conform to reality, eventually.
The pattern is related in size to the perimeter of the surface it is to control. The number of blocks, defined as a set of two pattern members on two different and defined radii remains consistent, regardless of the total linear distance traversed. The size of the block grows, not the number. Their relationship to the area affected must be carefully controlled, or, other frequency related phenomena will be experienced. These other effects can be useful and I will describe them as we go along.
Do not be alarmed by the negative reaction that this process causes in the conservative calculator based audio engineering society members. Go and listen to a typical sound reinforcement situation and make your own decisions about how well controlled the above described problems are.
Eventually, an innovative engineer, with tools useful for the task, will undertake to discover what is going on and describe it with a mathematical model that others can cook book into their designs. At that point this will become a main stream technique and everyone's sound will go up in quality of coherent information transfer. I will likely be long dead by that point and the patent will have run it's course. But it will still be available and perhaps the white paper will also be available and possibly even careful and detailed instructions for how to implement the process will have survived, to trigger this future engineer into activity.
Till then you can come along on this journey, practice a bit to acquire the techniques, listen a bit to begin to comprehend how the changes affect you and eventually make some pretty amazing changes in the amount of information you can retrieve from your "Audio" gear. Or not. Sort of depends upon Romy's level of patience right at this time.
Bud
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Posted by Brian Clark on
07-13-2005
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Bud, has the military been involved? Seems highly relevant for Sigint and hydrophone applications.
Brian.
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Posted by Bud on
07-13-2005
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HI Brian,
No doubt that sigint would incur a big increase in intelligibility, to say nothing of the improvement in music to fly and fight by. Works real good on headphones.
I spoke with a female development engineer with the Navy back in the early 90's and she advised me to patent it and make it public domain and try to get some commercial sales before I came to the DOD with the plan. Reason she gave, and my lawyer concurred with, is that the Gov will take the process and list it as top secret and I will not be able to offer it to anyone else. Then, I will have to sue them for recompense and prove that there might be some sort of commercial value they are taking from me.
She said that with as unusual and unknown a technique as this is, that the Gov lawyers would have no trouble proving to a court, through use of "experts", that there was no value to this process and that the patent should be rescinded. They would still have it listed as secret information and I would be barred from any mention of it or use of it, personal or otherwise.
So, you can imagine what my opinion of this likely string of events might be. And Romy, you need not worry about the Gov harassing you for publishing this information, as they have had a sufficient time to discover this process on their own. That they have not done so and since t is public domain since 1994 they can only complain and request removal of the white paper from your server as a favor to them. That would be your choice of course. I have no intention of alerting these people to their lack. Nor do I feel even slightly disloyal to my country.
Bud
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Posted by Timothy L. Davis on
07-13-2005
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By just the fact of saying it has no value and not proving why.I hope you don't mind me playing with the idea.Regard Tim
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Posted by Bud on
07-13-2005
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Please, have some fun. First download the white paper to see what the patent artists came up with. It is essentially correct but not to scale.
Note that it requires 18 offset sets of blocks around the periphery of a cone. About two degrees of space should be left between the top of the top row of blocks and the glue flange of the surround. If there is no glue flange, leave 1 degree of space to the edge of the cone. One block here is composed of two spaces filled with paint with one open space between.
Use the polar coordinate graph paper to guide your work. Find an old divider from some ancient mechanical drawing set (the pivoted, two armed thing with needles in both arms). Use this to transfer diameter of inner edge of surround glue flange to polar paper. Make the diameter smaller by 4 rings and then draw out the pattern on the graph paper using the meridian lines to control your block length. Cut carefully around the outside of the outer ring of blocks and if you have alternated your blocks in two rings with 10 degrees devoted to every block you will have 36 blocks, in two rings of 18, in each ring. Place this circle in the cone, center is well and you should have enough room to draw two rings of blocks on the cone, between the guide circle and the surround glue flange or edge of cone.
The inner ring of blocks can be reduced by one. Means two rings on the cone, with the bottom ring right in the joint of cone and center dome and a third ring up the side of the dome, the correct distance.
The rings are to be equivalent to one degree apart and one degree thick so each block has a 1 X 10 ratio, with the portions 1X2, 1X1 & 1X2. Treat POC cheap cones for a while. For a hoot find some closed back headphones that are blown. Remove the driver and cut the baffle plate to accept a small 1 12" or 2 " PM speaker and treat that. Will sound very close to Stax Electrostatic headphones.
You will need to place a dot of paint in the center of the dome of any speaker and it helps to put a six element set of blocks around this dot. For even more termination and to remove the occasional spike of high frequencies, take a round tooth pick, cut off the end to the start of the taper, dip it in to Elmer's White Glue and place a nipple, in the center, at the top of the dome. This will help almost all dome and cone with dome drivers by the way, just by itself.
Another thing to try is to treat a cone in open air in front of you with music from some cheap radio clip lead attached to the terminals. AS you finish the last few dots in the ring the sound will "pop up" in a very holographic image, with surprising width and specificity to the sound field.
When you have some cones to abuse and a speedball lettering set from A0 to A5 and all of the other stuff I can walk you through the details ... what!? you thought this was detailed enough already?!!!! hah... saving grace is you do not need to be very precise with your pen work for it to work just fine.
Bud
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Posted by Brian Clark on
07-14-2005
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You were given damn good advice Bud. So much has disappeared into the Black since WW2...
Through symmetry I would guess your technique would be appropriate to microphone diaphragms too.
I have taken the liberty to send a copy of your paper to a "progressive" (ie non-salon) speaker mfr friend and his his drive unit maker. I assume you would welcome licensing opportunities?
Brian.
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